| 00:43.51 | *** join/#neo900 EndZ (~end@2a03:b0c0:2:d0::4f:c001) |
| 01:14.55 | *** join/#neo900 Humpelst1lzchen (erik@f054018238.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 01:47.56 | *** join/#neo900 dal (~dal@82.221.107.179.adsl.inet-telecom.org) |
| 11:23.02 | *** join/#neo900 infobot (ibot@69-58-76-73.ut.vivintwireless.net) |
| 11:23.02 | *** topic/#neo900 is http://neo900.org | CCCAMP15 lightning talks at http://neo900.org/stuff/cccamp15/ | conversations are logged to http://infobot.rikers.org/%23neo900/ and http://irclog.whitequark.org/neo900 |
| 11:23.02 | *** mode/#neo900 [+v infobot] by ChanServ |
| 11:25.29 | *** join/#neo900 ravelo (4d7780aa@gateway/web/freenode/ip.77.119.128.170) |
| 11:26.14 | ravelo | Just tried to identify to tmo. I'd like to buy a voucher... |
| 11:26.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-D |
| 11:26.45 | ravelo | It looks like it's not possible to register because of an error on the site. |
| 11:27.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, there are quite a few available, which I strongly suggest you make use of when you're interested in Neo900 |
| 11:27.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | ravelo: tmo registering is sort of flaky. |
| 11:28.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | /join #maemo , try to contact chem|st |
| 11:28.20 | ravelo | ok |
| 11:28.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway sometimes it helps to just try another browser |
| 11:29.45 | ravelo | ok |
| 11:32.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | if you can't register a new account, please provide the text of the post and I can send it on behalf of you |
| 11:32.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | (provide) in pastebin or whatever |
| 11:35.19 | ravelo | did work in a different browser, thanks |
| 11:35.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | yw :-) |
| 11:36.24 | EndZ | another question: until when the payment have to be succeeded? |
| 11:36.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | please everybody: if you have a choice between PP and wire transfer (i.e. when you're living in EU where SEPA/SWIFT works) then please use the latter. PP is still trouble for us |
| 11:37.02 | ravelo | I could try paypal, but would like to buy a voucher before |
| 11:37.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | EndZ: well, that doesn't really matter that much, don't worry |
| 11:37.23 | EndZ | okay. |
| 11:37.37 | ravelo | ah ok, so you don't want anyone to try paypal. |
| 11:37.52 | ravelo | -> will use bank transfer then. |
| 11:38.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | I received a note from them today that they will freeze your money on our account for up to 6 months before we can use it |
| 11:39.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | "just in case, if it was a CC payment and needs to get rolled back after 6 months" |
| 11:40.56 | EndZ | what's a CC payment? |
| 11:41.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | Credit Card |
| 11:41.17 | EndZ | ah |
| 11:41.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | but note they don't limit that to CC payments, they apply that policy to *all* payments |
| 11:45.12 | ravelo | DocScrutinizer05: Is it OK to use more than one voucher? |
| 11:45.22 | ravelo | I could by more of them and apply them ;) |
| 11:45.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | I hope to negotiate a better deal with them, after all it's highly unlikely that ALL our customers are fraudulent CC payments |
| 11:46.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | ravelo: sorry,, no. each voucher stands for one device preordered, so we don't appreciate accumulation of multiple vouchers on one device order |
| 11:48.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | we already ordered some parts for each of the vouchers resp customers, and we based our calculations on each voucher resulting in one device getting built for it |
| 11:49.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | R&D also been paid by an equal fraction of each donation aka preorder so far |
| 11:50.27 | Arch-TK | DocScrutinizer05: so why do you nead all these beagleboards? |
| 11:51.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | Arch-TK: in proto_v2 we attach the core system (CPU, power, storage, memory) via at flat cable to the prototype board. That external CPU board is a BeagleBoard-xM |
| 11:52.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | we do this to have simpler (only 4 layers instead of 8) cheaper PCBs and less effort in layout etc |
| 11:53.43 | Arch-TK | so wait, I'm confused, the NeoN will be a beagleboard-xm taped to some components? |
| 11:53.59 | Arch-TK | Or is this purely for prototyping purposes? |
| 11:54.13 | Arch-TK | In which case, why do you need so many, surely one or two would suffice right? |
| 11:54.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | though... if this whole situation doesn't improve, we might consider reverting to 'classical' prototype concept and integrate CPU and RAM and uSD to the proto already |
| 11:54.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | this is purely for prototyping |
| 11:54.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | we like to have at least 6 "brainboards" |
| 11:55.29 | Arch-TK | Oh... It sounded like you were ordering 100 beagleboards, you're ordering 6. |
| 11:55.33 | Arch-TK | :P |
| 11:55.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | we also would send out some of them to our developers |
| 11:56.19 | Arch-TK | are they seriously that hard to get? |
| 11:56.23 | Arch-TK | (the beagleboards) |
| 11:56.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | e.g freemangordon and pali, for FPTF |
| 11:56.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | Arch-TK: alas yes |
| 11:57.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | Arch-TK: NB: BeagleBoard-xM (SIC) |
| 11:57.31 | Arch-TK | the $150 one (on the bb website) |
| 11:57.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep |
| 11:57.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | sounds about right |
| 11:58.13 | Arch-TK | well the tigal.com website (selected from the distributors dropdown) doesn't want to load |
| 11:58.31 | Arch-TK | and the german site has 0 in stock |
| 11:58.41 | Arch-TK | I see the problem... |
| 12:00.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://paste.opensuse.org/69469743 |
| 12:02.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://paste.opensuse.org/84915258 |
| 12:02.17 | Arch-TK | translates much better into polish than it does into english |
| 12:03.21 | Arch-TK | so there is hope |
| 12:03.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | note that I ordered a year ago :-/ |
| 12:03.55 | Arch-TK | If Archlinux-ARM has an image which works with the BeagleBoard-xM, would it work more or less out of the box with the Neo900? |
| 12:04.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, of course |
| 12:04.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-) |
| 12:04.43 | Arch-TK | That's great. If there's news of BeagleBoard-xM on the horizon, I will probably buy one. |
| 12:05.09 | Arch-TK | I want to see Archlinux-ARM running on a working phone |
| 12:06.05 | Arch-TK | I was thinking of how an ncurses interface would work with the N900 screen and keyboard... |
| 12:06.53 | Arch-TK | I have some ideas for how I could put together a modified / rewritten i3wm and some simple ncurses programs to try to get a working phone interface. |
| 12:07.11 | Arch-TK | (That sounds crazy, of course, this is what I do.) |
| 12:07.28 | EndZ | sounds nice. |
| 12:07.47 | Arch-TK | The only question is do I have the brains and the time to get it working. |
| 12:07.52 | EndZ | although the touchscreen would be useless. |
| 12:08.06 | edwin | can it emulate a mouse press? |
| 12:08.09 | Arch-TK | Not necessarily... Terminal emulators and ncurses itself supports mouse input. |
| 12:08.18 | EndZ | Arch-TK: well, if you already have an i3 running |
| 12:08.34 | EndZ | why not a fullscreen SDL window |
| 12:08.57 | Arch-TK | EndZ: With actual graphics? |
| 12:09.07 | EndZ | dunno. |
| 12:09.14 | EndZ | a SDL window allows ~ everything |
| 12:09.19 | Arch-TK | Of course. |
| 12:09.30 | EndZ | i would use some simple OpenGL foo |
| 12:09.45 | Arch-TK | Well the idea is to make it work off of primarily terminal emulators, and a window manager which has multiple workspaces. |
| 12:10.03 | EndZ | i3 and any running terminal? |
| 12:10.03 | Arch-TK | Then any other applications would also work. |
| 12:10.17 | Arch-TK | EndZ: a touch oriented i3, basically. |
| 12:10.19 | Arch-TK | yes |
| 12:10.36 | EndZ | i wouldn't fork i3 but dwm instead |
| 12:10.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | sounds like PaulFertser's EMACS GTA02 |
| 12:10.59 | Arch-TK | heh... sounds interesting... but emacs would take ages to load... surely? |
| 12:11.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | I don't know what exactly he did |
| 12:11.41 | Arch-TK | It already takes a full second to load on my laptop with an Samsung 850 EVO, on my desktop with a plain HDD it takes maybe 5 seconds, maybe more. |
| 12:11.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway he's using the Freerunner GTA02 with his own terminal-based UI |
| 12:12.01 | Arch-TK | I guess it depends on configuration and packages. |
| 12:12.09 | Arch-TK | sounds cool. |
| 12:12.27 | edwin | could you run it in daemon mode? |
| 12:12.45 | edwin | emacsclient starts so much faster than full emacs |
| 12:12.49 | Arch-TK | well yes |
| 12:12.59 | Arch-TK | but you still need to start the daemon first :P |
| 12:13.02 | edwin | although ocasinally things are broken with daemon mode |
| 12:13.26 | edwin | you start it on boot :) |
| 12:14.05 | Arch-TK | Anyway, we can always dream, but to get things done we first need an Neo900 |
| 12:14.35 | Arch-TK | I think I will pay the downpayment some time around the end of this month. |
| 12:14.51 | Arch-TK | (NeoN bare board only) |
| 12:16.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | Arch-TK: that's highly welcome (though unrelated to N900 sourcing) :-)) |
| 12:16.51 | Arch-TK | I know, I bought my own N900 first to make sure I liked the design and the keyboard, and I have to say, they are both great. |
| 12:17.21 | Arch-TK | The fact I managed to complete asciiportal on it is a testament to how much better it is compared to a phone without a keyboard. |
| 12:17.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | if a bare NeoN board is what you need (since you got a N900 to upgrade) then you're one of our major target group |
| 12:18.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | ((I have to say, they are both great)) \o/ :-)) yes, aren't they? :-) |
| 12:18.57 | Arch-TK | I wonder if I can pull off FDE on the thing while I'm at it. |
| 12:19.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | what's FDE? |
| 12:19.13 | Arch-TK | Full Disk Encryption |
| 12:19.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | I think this already got implemented and working on some N900s |
| 12:19.37 | Arch-TK | cool |
| 12:20.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | you might want to /join #maemo and ask |
| 12:20.29 | edwin | didn't know asciiportal existed, looking forward to playing it on my Neo900 :) |
| 12:20.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | YAY! NINETY chan members |
| 12:21.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-) |
| 12:24.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | ((FDK, ask #maemo) or simply search on talk.maemo.org |
| 12:24.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | FDE* |
| 12:25.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | since maemo fremantle basically is a plain debian system, stuff like FDE should be pretty easy to 'port' to arbitrary other debian-alike linux, and even RPM based distros shouldn't be much different |
| 12:26.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | in the end you could say that there's a close relationship (almost twins) between Beagle-xM, GolDeliCo GTA04, Nokia N900 and Neo900 |
| 12:27.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | from a OS point of view at least |
| 12:27.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | obviously not by formfactor |
| 12:27.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-) |
| 12:28.34 | dos1 | Arch-TK, edwin: https://github.com/paulfertser/fso-el/wiki/Screenshots |
| 12:28.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | we (Neo900) sort of guarantee that basically all GTA04 and all Maemo apps stuff should run flawlessly on Neo900 |
| 12:29.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | dos1: :-D hi friend! |
| 12:29.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | and thanks for the link :-)) |
| 12:30.32 | FIQ | DocScrutinizer05, there are places still that sell N900s in bulk? |
| 12:30.47 | dos1 | hello hello :) |
| 12:30.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, yeah, in some places in China you can get them, refurbished |
| 12:31.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | when you got boots on the ground there |
| 12:31.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | if you don't, you're likely getting fake or rubbish |
| 12:32.53 | FIQ | <Arch-TK> If Archlinux-ARM has an image which works with the BeagleBoard-xM, would it work more or less out of the box with the Neo900? |
| 12:33.21 | FIQ | it worked fine on my N900 when I tested it, getting it up and running on Neo900 should be even easier |
| 12:33.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep |
| 12:35.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | you need drivers for the different kbd matrix scanner and the different (dualtouch) touchscreen digitizer, both already existing |
| 12:36.02 | FIQ | speaking of which, I should try get alarm up and running on my OP... |
| 12:36.08 | FIQ | see how well it works |
| 12:36.12 | FIQ | oh well |
| 12:37.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | FIQ: I'm feeling sad about you not getting a Neo900 |
| 12:38.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | FIQ: maybe you'd be interested in one of the "broken" boards we doubtlessly will have a few of, after production run. Something with dunno, WLAN module defect, or whatever. Those might be available for relatively cheap money |
| 12:39.18 | FIQ | <DocScrutinizer05> FIQ: I'm feeling sad about you not getting a Neo900 |
| 12:39.38 | FIQ | it seems like a really nice device, just happens to be too expensive for me |
| 12:39.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's why I'm pondering a way to get you one |
| 12:40.01 | FIQ | ah |
| 12:40.55 | FIQ | hm, I don't know, maybe? depends on how broken :p |
| 12:41.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | we might have some maybe 5 or so boards like that, which we can't sell for a 'normal' device at a 'normal' price |
| 12:41.11 | FIQ | we'll see sooner or later I suppose |
| 12:41.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | of course it depends on 'how broken' :-) |
| 12:41.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes. Just mentioning it so you could ponder if you're maybe interested |
| 12:42.08 | FIQ | maybe, ty for the heads up anyway |
| 12:42.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | yw :-) |
| 12:43.23 | *** join/#neo900 ravelo (b273819d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.115.129.157) |
| 12:52.03 | ravelo | I applied the voucher. Now cannot save my account data (error: 1. other is invalid). Browser: Firefox |
| 12:52.28 | ravelo | it looks I cannot solve this issue in the webshop |
| 12:53.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | duh! sorry to hear that, sounds weird |
| 12:53.30 | ravelo | I try to register first, then do the order |
| 12:53.35 | ravelo | maybe this helps |
| 12:53.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, please do |
| 12:54.10 | ravelo | maybe better not do everything in one step |
| 12:56.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | it once worked, but that shop thing is a nightmare for us Electric Engineers to maintain |
| 12:57.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-) |
| 12:57.03 | ravelo | ok, now waiting for the registration link. |
| 12:57.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | should arrive instantly |
| 12:57.50 | ravelo | this could be a problem for new customers as this is the proposed way to buy |
| 12:58.16 | ravelo | if they are not able to complete the steps they might not buy in the end |
| 13:00.17 | *** join/#neo900 ecloud (quassel@nat/digia/x-wggiithqipsgctki) |
| 13:00.21 | ravelo | ok, was in my spam folder |
| 13:05.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, you created 2 new accounts, according to my controlling emails |
| 13:05.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | nevermind, no problem |
| 13:06.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | ponders to lock the shop feature to have shopping cart for anonymous visitors |
| 13:06.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | this might actually simplify the procedure |
| 13:06.32 | ravelo | had to copy the link (not clickable) |
| 13:06.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | dang! |
| 13:06.46 | ravelo | done :) |
| 13:07.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | you're Martin? |
| 13:07.04 | ravelo | yes, maybe lead those to first create the account |
| 13:07.04 | ravelo | yes |
| 13:07.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | good |
| 13:07.17 | ravelo | transaction done also :) |
| 13:07.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-) |
| 13:08.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | sidenote: I just called mouser, very friendly folks there who promised to bump the query at BB-xM manuf |
| 13:09.46 | ravelo | maybe I can help out again a bit, at the moment no time |
| 13:10.05 | ravelo | it looks like you are stuck a bit waiting for Nikolaus |
| 13:10.10 | ravelo | who is busy for pyra |
| 13:34.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmm, he left. anyway no, Nikolaus is supposed to be available 100% for Neo900 from this very week on, and so next week we (re-)start with building proto_v2 (or was it 3? that counting scheme confuses me completely) |
| 13:47.56 | *** join/#neo900 lpgl (~user@vzn18-1-88-165-203-247.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 13:51.10 | lpgl | Hi ! I would like to proceed to my paiment for a NEO900 board but I can't manage to have a voucher id for the 100⬠I've paid when the project start... Anyone can help ? |
| 13:54.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | lpgl: hi! the voucher code got sent to you by email |
| 13:54.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | several weeks ago |
| 13:55.16 | edwin | my voucher code got sent in an email with subject 'Neo900 - your voucher code' |
| 13:59.09 | *** join/#neo900 itbaron (~kvirc@a88-115-8-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 14:27.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | he sorted it :-D |
| 14:39.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | tiny "updates" on neo900.org: µBlog |
| 14:48.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | btw to whom it may concern: we are still looking for private VC to build a few "excess" devices |
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| 14:51.03 | *** part/#neo900 teleshoes (~teleshoes@pool-74-104-145-183.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) |
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| 15:32.33 | edwin | http://www.startupbootcamp.org/accelerator/hightechxl-eindhoven.html http://www.techfounders.com/application/ would applying to one of these make sense? |
| 15:36.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | edwin: those are not really 'private' |
| 15:37.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | we eventually might look into this stuff, but not now. we're not prepared for it |
| 15:38.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | and odds are those entities won't consider Neo900 a really rewarding investment either. Our perspective is sort of 'too limited' for them |
| 15:39.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | Neo900 is a one-shot basically, without a perspective for 'eternal growth' - unless we come up with STEP2 which is still pretty much vaporware |
| 15:42.05 | edwin | well you have what some people who do get an investment don't even have: you have (ok a limited number of) customers who pre-ordered your device, you have various working prototypes, and previous experience on building a similar product |
| 15:42.11 | edwin | its not just a bunch of slides and an idea |
| 15:42.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep, that's true |
| 15:42.53 | edwin | might be interesting to pitch your idea (either of neo900 or step2) to some investors just to see what their reaction is |
| 15:43.02 | edwin | so when you are ready you know what they're looking for |
| 15:43.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | but commercial VC looks for ROI in the 1000% range, we can't offer that |
| 15:43.28 | edwin | hmm I guess a hardware business is harder than a pure software one :) |
| 15:43.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes |
| 15:44.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | in software you basically make money out of nothing, after initially developing some 'seed' |
| 15:44.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | in hw you are just value-adding |
| 15:44.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | IOW you have expense per sold unit |
| 15:45.39 | edwin | sure, and the customer pays for it, that initial investment would help you acquiring the components in the needed amount and not having to look for batches of 100-200, but could instead go for the higher batches |
| 15:47.01 | edwin | given enough (millions?) of devices sold they would get their investment back |
| 15:47.16 | edwin | multiple times, the question is if there is such a market for neo900-like devices |
| 15:47.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | surely not |
| 15:48.22 | edwin | the (failed) ubuntu edge got pledge for $12m https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ubuntu-edge#/story they aimed too high |
| 15:48.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | also we simply cannot do that right away - would need producing our own cases, displays, digitizers, antennas etc pp |
| 15:49.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | (edge) I know :-D, that's where Neo900 started (well around that point in time) |
| 15:50.37 | edwin | also I don't know if I mentioned these before: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/keyboardio/the-model-01-an-heirloom-grade-keyboard-for-seriou |
| 15:50.50 | edwin | sure its just a keyboard, and in fact they worked on it for quite a while before getting that funding |
| 15:50.58 | edwin | they also got some investment from bloomberg beta |
| 15:51.19 | edwin | maybe you could have a chat with them (theirs is open hardware too) to get some tips |
| 15:51.40 | edwin | although being in the US has some advantage when it comes to investments :) |
| 16:00.36 | EndZ | is it possible getting the payment information resend? |
| 16:06.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | EndZ: please see your account, any invoice should be available for download there (if you completed the order) or just /query me and pass me your account ID |
| 16:06.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | EndZ: you also should have received an email with payment details |
| 16:07.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | in case you chosen bank transfer |
| 16:09.03 | EndZ | mh, is the bank transfer account the same for all orders? |
| 16:09.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes |
| 16:09.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | see /query |
| 16:10.02 | EndZ | nah, hacked it. |
| 16:10.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | ok |
| 16:10.13 | EndZ | simply buyed 20 Euro extra. |
| 16:10.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | o.O |
| 16:10.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | ooh |
| 16:10.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-) |
| 16:10.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | hehe |
| 16:10.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | please include both order ids in your payment :-) |
| 16:11.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | though I'll sort it out anyway when I see the payment exceeds a single order. But easier to find the seciond order then, when you provide the ID |
| 16:12.12 | EndZ | yeah, i will do it. |
| 16:13.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | we're quite happy about bank transfer, PayPal giving us serious headaches right at the moment |
| 16:14.07 | EndZ | :) |
| 16:14.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | they installed a security deposit (money we can't access for 180 days) that's quite in excess of the amount of money we expect to ever see on that PP account |
| 16:16.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | we hope to correct that by negotiating better conditions with them |
| 16:18.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | you (our customers) could expedite the release of that payment to us when you "give a positive feedback on eBay" - WTF?! |
| 16:18.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | maybe give a 'positive feedback' in direct mail to PayPal? |
| 16:31.47 | Kero | you are sure convincing me to stop using paypal. what a l**d of cr*p. |
| 16:34.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | speak German? http://www.123recht.net/forum_topic.asp?topic_id=251810&ccheck=1 |
| 16:36.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | a mail to PP pointing out "I've read and accepted the TOS http://www.123recht.net/forum_topic.asp?topic_id=251810&ccheck=1 when I ordered" may help |
| 16:37.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | oops, sorry |
| 16:37.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | a mail to PP pointing out "I've read and accepted the TOS https://my.neo900.org/index.php?id_cms=3&controller=cms&id_lang=1&content_only=1 when I ordered" may help |
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