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| 03:21.05 | *** topic/#neo900 is http://neo900.org | CCCAMP15 lightning talks at http://neo900.org/stuff/cccamp15/ - major: http://neo900.org/stuff/cccamp15/ccc2015talk/neo900-wpwrak_CCC2015.webm | conversations are logged to http://infobot.rikers.org/%23neo900/ and http://irclog.whitequark.org/neo900 |
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| 03:41.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://maemo-beagle.garage.maemo.org/ |
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| 05:31.14 | gnutun | hey, do you guys have a preferred n900 replacement battery product or supplier these days? there are random wiki pages recommending scud/polarcell/mugen/etc ... |
| 05:33.49 | Humpelstilzchen | gnutun: I bought a polarcell, works |
| 06:01.46 | gnutun | ok thx Humpelstilzchen |
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| 20:07.17 | Humpelstilzchen | hey in neo900 will it be possible to start/stop charging at will? e.g. tell charger to stop charging at 80%? |
| 20:08.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes |
| 20:08.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-) |
| 20:09.50 | Humpelstilzchen | good |
| 20:11.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/bq24297.pdf |
| 20:20.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | quite a nice chargerchip which works autonomously (unlike the N900 charger) but also has even better (optional) control by host CPU |
| 20:23.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | we have a tiny glitch in the design: after battery swap, charging will start - after precharge period - on a max battery charging current of 2A - which is ~1.5C for the normal BL-5J. Until bootloader boots up and tells the chip to reduce the max Ibat to 0.7C aka ~900mA, so usually for a few seconds at max and only after battery swap |
| 20:25.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | *usually* the bootloader should be fast enough to readjust the charger chip before precharge period even started. And in rare case of coldflashing needed we're connected to a PC or USB-hub that doesn't usually provide enough power to do such 2A charging. The chip will always detect that it's not connected to a fastacharger and limit USB current accordingly so battery charge current gets implicitly limited in that case |
| 20:26.09 | Humpelstilzchen | k but it might be a problem when the battery is already full |
| 20:26.24 | Humpelstilzchen | >50%+x |
| 20:26.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, then ConstantVoltage charging kicks in |
| 20:26.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | and no significant current will flow anyway |
| 20:26.53 | Humpelstilzchen | aah so the chip does that automatically |
| 20:26.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure :-) |
| 20:27.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | it does CC-CV |
| 20:27.20 | Humpelstilzchen | but 1.5C shouldn't do much damage for a short time, does it? |
| 20:27.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | limit to Umax/Imax whatever lower |
| 20:27.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, I think it does no damage at all |
| 20:27.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | otherwise I hadn't designed it like that |
| 20:27.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-) |
| 20:28.03 | Humpelstilzchen | lol |
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| 20:29.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | in *theory* repeatedly doing charging with a broken bootloader could damage the battery in a way it loses capacity faster than it's supposed to. Batteries don't really like getting fastcharged with current higher than specified by cell manuf |
| 20:30.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | this is not any dangerous but it could reduce lifespan of battery |
| 20:30.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | but I don't expect anybody doing this - using a device with borked bootloader to constantly charge a battery with it |
| 20:31.04 | Humpelstilzchen | everything reduces livespan of battery, unless you put it in the fridge at about 50% ;) |
| 20:31.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep :-) |
| 20:33.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | on the bright side: we could charge extended batteries like mugen or DIY hacks with a decent 3A :-D |
| 20:34.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | (or any lower current than 3A, to your discretion) |
| 20:35.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | oooh and did I mention this charger chip *can* boot up the device even without battery inserted? |
| 20:36.46 | Humpelstilzchen | hehe |
| 20:37.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | Neo900 > N900 in so many subtle ways. Eventually I need to compile a comprehensive list of all those nice unknown little feature enhancements |
| 20:39.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | the annoying "Use *original* Nokia fastcharger!" should also be gone. The new charger chip should work with wirtually any charger you plug it in |
| 20:40.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | it knows the "Nokia" D+- short fastcharger signaling as well as the common Android/Apple signaling schemes, and prolly it should worjk with completely dumb chargers that have open circuit D+- as well |
| 20:41.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | and it does all this without any support by host CPU |
| 20:42.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | so the device will work perfectly even without _any_ "BME"-alike charger drivers in linux |
| 20:42.15 | Humpelstilzchen | nice |
| 20:42.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, isn't it :-) |
| 20:44.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm considering to have a user-removable/breakable jumper on the PCB to limit max USB current to 800mA, just in case users want to mess with their device without any bootloader that's capable of handling the charger chip config |
| 20:45.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | we can't limit battery charge current directly via hardware means like a jumper or sth, but limiting USB current is next best thing for that |
| 20:45.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~800/3.5*5.0 |
| 20:45.59 | infobot | 1142.857142857143 |
| 20:46.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | which happens to be exactly 1C for BL-5J |
| 20:46.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | oops nope, that would be 1340mA, right? |
| 20:47.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | so limiting USB current to 800mA limits battery charge current to well < 1C (for BL-5J) |
| 20:48.00 | enyc | I just wondered if 'overall battery capacity' is major consideration... i've found N900 mapping + gps for example a pain with 'going flat' and needing to take 3 batteries.... |
| 20:48.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | enyc: please rephrase. you lost me |
| 20:48.54 | enyc | I'm wondering r.e. neo900 thinking -- how much consideration there was to 'usable litefitem off battery'... |
| 20:49.34 | enyc | Because -- when using N900 for mapping w/ GPS location, this has been a pain with n900-batteries going flat too much, needing to take 3 battiers on day trip etc etc!! |
| 20:50.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, we can't do much about battery capacity nor about battery lifespan. We can try to consume as few power as possible and to treat battery nicely |
| 20:51.09 | enyc | in particuloar -- wondering if modern modem, gps, cpu, etc will be substantially lower power than N900's variants |
| 20:51.22 | enyc | seemingly, n900's 3g modem eats loads of power, rather more than 2g ... |
| 20:51.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmm, that's an interesting question |
| 20:51.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, 3G by protocol design eats more power than 2G |
| 20:52.04 | enyc | is LTE better? |
| 20:53.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's because for every single byte of data you send or receive via modem (GPRS err UMTS), the modem transmitter will stay active for a 4 seconds or somesuch, just in case you might want to send more |
| 20:53.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | I don't know details about LTE so far |
| 20:53.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | supposed to be better, yes |
| 20:53.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | at least that's what I heard |
| 20:54.05 | enyc | okies |
| 20:54.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-) |
| 20:54.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | the GPS in our modem is supposed to have very smart energy saving means |
| 20:54.38 | enyc | how many more proto-boards expected ? i got impression wifi module is major pont to sort out, but any other major choices still to make? |
| 20:54.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | I doubt N900 had anything similar |
| 20:55.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | two more protoboards expected |
| 20:55.25 | enyc | wifi module for the first then second is hopefully 'rc/final' ? |
| 20:55.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | no other major choices to make, so far |
| 20:55.34 | enyc | ... or something.. =) |
| 20:56.01 | enyc | I'm thinking... are 'proto' boards actually different to 'release candidate' boards -- are they huge versions with breakouts etc etc ? |
| 20:56.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | first is the 2brain-less" type with beagleboard attached. 2nd shall be release candidate if everything pans out |
| 20:56.43 | enyc | makes sense |
| 20:56.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, next protoboard is such a "huge" type with "breakouts" |
| 20:57.28 | enyc | presumably.. with all hardware choices made by then |
| 20:57.36 | enyc | to test it all together |
| 20:57.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes |
| 20:57.46 | enyc | excellent =) |
| 20:58.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | just a few minutes ago I received a new schematics draft from Nikolaus |
| 20:58.22 | enyc | hows the preorders coming? need any more visibility / etc.? |
| 20:58.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | we're already working on it. FINALLY :-) |
| 20:59.07 | enyc | yes... when a project has been 'tedious' its so difficult to keep-going... realyl pleased to see the end in sight =) |
| 20:59.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, more visibility would be highly welcome. Though our sysops still didn't manage to switch to new stronger infra to really handle slashdotting etc :-) |
| 21:01.10 | enyc | i find it difficult to point to a clear definition of the project stage -- summary of whaty ou just said about how cleose things really oare would be good, along with an idea on the scope/work for usable OS... |
| 21:02.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'll post some news to tmo soon |
| 21:02.16 | enyc | link it to main page too if you can |
| 21:02.32 | enyc | to point 'outsiders' to the project is dififult if theres' not a clear suumamry of state |
| 21:02.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | neo900.org main page? |
| 21:02.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: |
| 21:02.56 | enyc | yes, nue900 main page |
| 21:03.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | we probably should reword a few things on main page |
| 21:03.37 | enyc | i think you'd get more ppossibility of (pre-)orders if it was clear how well thins should work, what the major remaining risks are, the scope of work for usable software, etc. |
| 21:03.48 | enyc | (I know the software isnt't idrectly part of prjoect but still...) |
| 21:04.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep, I agree completely |
| 21:05.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | you know the Neo900 as well as N900 and GTA04 are siblings of the BeagleBoard-xM? http://maemo-beagle.garage.maemo.org/ |
| 21:05.33 | enyc | if i did know, iv' forgotten that detail =) |
| 21:05.47 | enyc | I know GTA04 relationship =) |
| 21:06.30 | enyc | I'd explain what this means in terms of 'how to have usable software' context .... |
| 21:06.37 | enyc | maemo-port would be interesting option! |
| 21:06.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | since we use same audio hardware as N900, everything incl sound (except call audio) should work OOTB with a rather stock&unchanged maemo |
| 21:07.10 | enyc | mostly new bootloader/kernel ? |
| 21:07.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmm, yes, new bootloader. Kernel shouldn't be a problem, rather with maemo kernel everything should work |
| 21:07.52 | enyc | wow |
| 21:08.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | we need to add drivers for the changed kbd and touchpanel (we got that multitouch) and that's it |
| 21:08.14 | enyc | but wifi module... modem module... entirely different |
| 21:08.45 | enyc | new touchpanel-controller but still resistive high-accuracy, can just register multiple touches? |
| 21:08.50 | edwin | how many of the people who sent the initial 100 EUR (or more) made a preorder? |
| 21:09.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | modem module is actually different. For wifi module we'll see. I hoped to use a compatible chipset that's supposed to work with even same kernel driver as the N900 (and particularly N9) WiFi |
| 21:09.23 | edwin | is there a signifcant number of them left undecided or you're looking for new customers? |
| 21:09.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | edwin: ~50% |
| 21:09.45 | enyc | DocScrutinizer05: good luck =) |
| 21:09.54 | arossdotme | hehe i must be one of those 50percents |
| 21:10.20 | enyc | I can try to ask questions in comlab about wifi modules but I suspect thats more of a pracical-integrator-question rather than theoretical computer-sciency etc.... |
| 21:10.32 | enyc | not sure who would know much more about the WiFi |
| 21:10.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | enyc: yes, it is |
| 21:10.49 | edwin | would be interesting to find out why, not sure whats the best option would be. perhaps ask them to answer a short poll or just write a short email why they didn't preorder / when they plan to preorder? |
| 21:10.56 | enyc | I also wonder what 'developments' on WiFi there are that would be desireable to have... you mentionied 5ghz =) |
| 21:11.20 | enyc | let alone the qusetion-marks over security of the driver/firmware as mentioned before |
| 21:11.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | we'll have 5GHz |
| 21:11.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | just like N9 |
| 21:12.14 | arossdotme | thank you so much for your persistence, docscrutinizer and all persons involved :D |
| 21:12.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | we maybe can't get the wlan module that's based on N9's wwlan chip. So we need to evaluate a few alternatives now |
| 21:12.36 | enyc | DocScrutinizer05: can you do that without many different proto-boards to try each?? |
| 21:12.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | arossdotme: you're welcome :-) thanks for your sustained support of the project |
| 21:12.50 | enyc | p.s. any further parts- |
| 21:12.55 | enyc | p.s. any further parts-sourcing-issues ? |
| 21:13.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | enyc: it's mostly a "RTFM" thing and then devcide what's the best option. Then test if everything works like described in the docs |
| 21:13.38 | arossdotme | support? (i assume support in words not £££ you mean? though maybe its will also be in £££ soon... i wish :D ) |
| 21:14.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | arossdotme: support in words and whatever way. We can use all support we can get |
| 21:14.51 | enyc | please make a 'end-is-in-sight' type post with remaingi isuses, board plans, clear how little work is needed for usable software, ec.... then i can point people at this =) |
| 21:15.32 | arossdotme | ok, twas afead of being acredited with being a £££ supporter when i wasnt really (i didnt think a 2rd hand gta04 counts really) |
| 21:15.48 | arossdotme | *afraid |
| 21:17.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | enyc: how about you write this summary and I proofread it? results would probably be closer to what users expect to read and want to know than when I write down what _I_ think is noteworthy. You know, tendency to get blind for the things you deal with on a daily basis |
| 21:17.30 | arossdotme | i really want one though, a cross between my ben nano note that has a keyboard and my zipit z2's usb host and my gta04. in a all in one device would be awesome! and save me a lot of weight to carry |
| 21:18.34 | arossdotme | *(i know gta04 has usb host, just havenât used it properly/much yet) |
| 21:18.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | enyc: you could write up an 'interview' and send me the questions so I could answer them |
| 21:19.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | and if we may, we would actually like to post such stuff on our fronpage under news then |
| 21:19.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | and send it out as newsletter |
| 21:22.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | actually I hoped for somebody in community picking up on the part of writing news about our work, rather than we (Neo900 team) do ourselves |
| 21:23.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | this kind of support would be *highly* appreciated |
| 21:23.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | writing stories takes us a lot of time, we all are quite poor story writers |
| 21:24.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | and usually way too busy to write something like that |
| 21:34.41 | enyc | DocScrutinizer05: via what medium? email address ? etc ... |
| 21:35.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | whatever you like. Maybe some piratepad or sth like that? |
| 21:35.14 | enyc | dont know whta that is |
| 21:35.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | of course you also can send an email |
| 21:35.26 | enyc | used to emails but has no idea of address ;p |
| 21:36.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | send to contact at neo900.org, or joerg@ |
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| 21:42.06 | enyc | DocScrutinizer05: i'll need to think on it but may be back to you if i can =) |
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