| 00:21.21 | Oksana | I am not sure how MicroB in software separates finger from stylus, I meant using part of resistive touchscreen for capacitive sensing, does it work hardware-wise? |
| 00:21.47 | Oksana | "will see": is it for proto_v2 or later? |
| 00:27.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://neo900.org/specs "Subject to change during product specification." - proto_v2 is not built yet, so any info about it is not binding |
| 00:27.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | you know we planned it |
| 00:28.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | otherwise you wouldn't ask |
| 00:37.53 | EndZ | as long as i can phone and use ssh and a custom linux distribution i am happy :) |
| 00:38.02 | EndZ | + free + disable GSM and foo + ... |
| 00:38.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's warranted :-) |
| 00:38.33 | EndZ | uh a screen would be nice, too |
| 00:38.41 | EndZ | and a keyboard |
| 00:39.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | I think those two detauils won't change anymore |
| 00:40.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | RGB kbd backlight OTOH might simply not be worth the expense |
| 00:40.07 | Oksana | thinks that the last mobile phone without a screen was Nokia 7280. Wait, it had a screen. Okay, cellular phone without a screen: http://www.amazon.com/OPIS-60s-MOBILE-telephone-technology/dp/B0081Y24BU |
| 00:41.00 | Oksana | Actually, how do you accept-or-reject a phone call if touchscreen fails? Keyboard shortcuts + green-red backlight would be perfect |
| 00:41.02 | EndZ | Oksana: still cheaper than neo900 |
| 00:41.26 | EndZ | mh. |
| 00:41.41 | EndZ | the're those fancy headsets |
| 00:42.05 | EndZ | my old Nokia here has a special option, if a headset (with mic) is connected, all calls can be automatically received |
| 00:42.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | you got an RGB indicator LED amd 3 status LEDs left of kbd. kbd backlight is pretty useless in daylight anyway |
| 00:43.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | making it RGB is a nice gimmick |
| 00:44.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | but gives us headache regarding component selection. There's only ONE component existing for RGB kbd backlight LED |
| 00:44.29 | Oksana | And it's pricy-and-or-unobtainium? |
| 00:44.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, both, to a certain degree |
| 00:45.18 | EndZ | then i have to create my own Neo900 with blackjack and hookers |
| 00:45.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | now you know what's status of RGB backlight. I simply don't know yet |
| 00:50.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | Oksana: I absolutely agree phonecall accept/reject//terminate SHALL work with hw keys as well. One of the huge flaws/shortcomings of maemo dialer-ui |
| 00:51.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | another is type and position of buttons for accepting/rejecting calls in dialer: they should be sliders and opposite direction of activation, so you can't operate them accidentally |
| 00:51.55 | Oksana | But as long as dialer-ui works on Neo900 hardware, RE-ing dialer-ui can wait until after other, more critical components are RE-ed |
| 00:52.53 | Oksana | ... What is the status of fptf? |
| 00:53.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | building a simple dialer is as hard as writing a shellscript 10-liner. It's the additional features of maemo dialer like showing contact name, controlling the switch between hands-free and phone audio etc that makes the difference |
| 00:54.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm not involved in FPTF |
| 01:11.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | for all I know genuine fremantle should work on Neo900, with addition of existing mouse driver, modified MSE, modem adaptions e.g. to make modem look like a SIP RTP device |
| 01:21.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | (modem adaptions) very 'lazy' and simple approach: install asterisk on device, attach modem to asterisk |
| 01:22.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | register a SIP account user@localhost in fremantle dialer |
| 01:25.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | what we need is a new driver for cellular data aka GPRS, the current one works via phonet0 interface which won't exist anymore |
| 01:27.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | the needed driver will for example ship with Pyra already (except for LTE). Gemalto offers FOSS drivers for linux, according to their product sheet |
| 01:29.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | apart from that I think freemangordon and pali made good progress with RE-ing some audio stuff to facilate using it on newer kernels and recent PA |
| 01:30.19 | ds2 | what does the modem do? |
| 01:30.22 | ds2 | ethernet? ppp? |
| 01:30.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | BT support is still lacking in-depth evaluation. there are drivers by TI for the wl1837 but I don't now how open they are and how much porting work they need for fremantle |
| 01:30.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | ds2: depends on whether it's UMTS or LTE aiui |
| 01:31.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | I think UMTS is ppp while LTE is ethernet |
| 01:32.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | not checked it in-depth |
| 01:34.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway both modems are pretty much 'standard' so no problems expected there |
| 01:43.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | which makes sense since iirc LTE is IP-only. The first device in Germany using LTE was not a phone but a surfstick. The first mobile phone LTE service (with phone) used VoIP |
| 01:44.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Term_Evolution >>Vodafone bietet seit dem 1. Dezember 2010 als erster deutscher Mobilfunk-Netzbetreiber LTE für Endkunden in Kombination mit einem LTE-Surfstick an.[16] Seit dem 15. März 2011 bietet Vodafone auch LTE-Tarife mit Telefonie / Telefonanschluss an,[17] es handelt sich dabei um Voice-over-IP (Internettelefonie)<< |
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| 01:53.58 | ds2 | so is LTE really a shared network like frame relay is? (base station to phone) |
| 01:55.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, I don't know what's frame relay |
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| 01:55.19 | ds2 | n/m |
| 02:01.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway LTE has no genuine circuit switched voice cals, they use VoLTE which is VoIP, or fall back to 3G CS-calls |
| 02:04.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | and there's a huge regulatory overhead in LTE to make sure VoLTE (and internet access) are services decoupled form the carrier's LTE service. So you could use any internet provide and any voicecall provider together with your LTE service and yet those services are billed to you by the LTE provider. This entails complex "business 2 business" authentication and accounting protocols between LTE provisder and 3rd parties behind the screnes |
| 02:05.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | decoupled from* |
| 02:07.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | on the LTE OTA protocol everything is just IP |
| 02:08.26 | ds2 | sigh |
| 02:08.37 | ds2 | deprecate teh damn voice shit |
| 02:10.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, soon we will send twitter messages with attached audio snippets for each sylable we talk to our peer during a "phone"call ;-D |
| 02:11.09 | ds2 | it should be none of their business what I run |
| 02:11.39 | ds2 | they should be selling bw w/latency specs. |
| 02:11.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's basically exactly what all this aims at |
| 02:12.19 | ds2 | then why's the authentication crap? |
| 02:12.34 | ds2 | it should be the final customer that cares |
| 02:12.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | your carrier sells a data transport ("wire") to you, on which you can run arbitrary services as long as they are IP-based |
| 02:14.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | then usually (but not necessarily) same carrier offers access to internet to you, formerly known as Access Point |
| 02:16.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | and a third service voice-call is offered to you often (but again not mandatory) by same service provider that offers LTE to you. Anyway LTE provider has the duty to charge you ob behalf of the internet and voicecall providers - unless those providers prefer to use other business models |
| 02:17.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmm ,aybe that wasn't "Access Point" but "Point Of Presence"? |
| 02:18.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_of_presence |
| 02:22.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://searchtelecom.techtarget.com/definition/point-of-presence-POP |
| 02:25.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's all the same like on plain old landline POTS: while 2G and 3G were a complete telephone service offered to you by your telephone company, 4G is just "the last mile" "wire" which the owner of the "cable" (frequency) (the LTE provider) offers to arbitrary phone service and internet service providers to "hire" |
| 02:32.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | ((then why's the authentication crap?)) when I for example would decide to use sipfone.de for my call provider on my O2 LTE account, O2 needs to tell Sipfone about my identity (and "phone number"?) and sipfone needs to tell O2 about the charge for the particular call so O2 can charge me |
| 02:32.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | obviously all that need authentication back and forth |
| 02:33.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | and not only that. It even needs O2 and Telefonica(O2) 'automatically' negotiating a tariff for that transaction |
| 02:35.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's a nightmare, invented to allow maximum freedom for final customer |
| 02:40.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | grr |
| 02:40.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | and not only that. It even needs Sipfone and Telefonica(O2) 'automatically' negotiating a tariff for that transaction |
| 02:45.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | (modem adaptions) so for LTE we might end up with a genuine SIP VoIP account in dialer for Voice over LTE |
| 02:46.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | since the LTE modem no longer claims "prepared for VoLTE" |
| 02:48.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | I don't know if we need a special handler in linux modem driver stack to handle the "fallback to 3G CS voicecall" scenario |
| 02:49.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | I never looked into how that's actually implemented on LTE protocol level, nor do I know how the modem is supposed to handle it |
| 02:52.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | basically the modem needs to switch from LTE to 3G and then accept the call in the usual way. However I guess the "INVITE" (or whatever) on LTE has hints about the exactl 3G channel to switch to, so the modem should handle this without support from application side |
| 03:36.43 | ds2 | whoa INVITE! |
| 03:36.44 | ds2 | ? |
| 03:36.56 | ds2 | are they running MGCP? |
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| 07:23.36 | saper | DocScrutinizer05: did you mean APN? |
| 07:34.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | No, I meant POP |
| 07:36.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | though APN is quite similar |
| 07:36.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | APN is the name of a POP |
| 07:43.26 | saper | it can be that LTE no longer requires a statful context |
| 07:45.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, I didn't look into LTE details in-depth |
| 07:45.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | I rather leave this to our Osmocom friends ;-) |
| 07:46.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | in the end of the day it won't help me learning LTE details |
| 07:47.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | didn't even need that when I worked for ST-E |
| 07:48.01 | saper | oh done still needs "PDP context" |
| 07:48.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: |
| 07:48.22 | saper | and the IP traffic is carried over GTP-U tunneling protocol over IP |
| 07:48.28 | saper | so it's all the same old shit |
| 07:48.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | just it has none of the other stuff anymore |
| 07:48.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | aiui |
| 07:49.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | or pretty little |
| 07:49.15 | saper | "How to change everything not to change anything" :) |
| 07:49.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | no SMS, no calls |
| 07:49.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | dunno |
| 07:50.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's what learned from an article (10 pages) about LTE before it was even finally specified |
| 07:50.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | so, *several* years ago |
| 07:51.51 | saper | whatever it is, you still need PDP context, which is a session to SGW (serving gateway), identified by APN (Access Point Name) |
| 07:52.11 | saper | of course the most interesting is the radio layer |
| 07:53.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | >>Much of the LTE standard addresses the upgrading of 3G UMTS to what will eventually be 4G mobile communications technology. A large amount of the work is aimed at simplifying the architecture of the system, as it transitions from the existing UMTS circuit + packet switching combined network, to an all-IP flat architecture system.<< https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LTE_(telecommunication) |
| 07:55.34 | Defiant | does that mean that UMTS is EOL? |
| 07:59.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, UMTS is not yet EOL |
| 07:59.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LTE_(telecommunication)#Voice_calls >>The LTE standard supports only packet switching with its all-IP network. Voice calls in GSM, UMTS and CDMA2000 are circuit switched, so with the adoption of LTE, carriers will have to re-engineer their voice call network.[25] Three different approaches sprang up: Voice over LTE (VoLTE) / Circuit-switched fallback (CSFB) / Simultaneous voice and LTE (SVLTE) << |
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| 08:12.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | (EOL) I don't even know how far this coexistence feature in LTE goes, maybe UMTS will coexist with LTE on same spectrum |
| 08:13.25 | Wizzup | I was hoping it would take a long time for umts to go eol |
| 08:13.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | for now CSFB seems the commonly used voice call method and for that some sort of 'classical' network like UMTS is needed |
| 08:16.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | also depends on country of course. While in USA they already start to shut down some UMTS and for sure 2G channels, in EU 2G GSM is used for so many M2M and telemetry purposes I wonder if it's here to stay forever |
| 08:18.55 | Wizzup | DocScrutinizer05: I hope so :) |
| 08:20.06 | saper | 2G GPRS has mostly the same coverage as 2G GSM voice, which can be very useful |
| 08:20.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm rather worried about LTE obsoleting itself by using every yet another new band in addition to the two dozen |
| 08:21.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | I see they sold some more bands in Germany a 5 months ago, some weird stuff I didn't hear any LTE modem supporting yet |
| 08:22.00 | saper | love his oldish Option Globetrotter HSDPA |
| 08:23.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | seems as soon as modem manufs made a working modem chipset, the authorities auction a few more bands not yet supported by those chips |
| 08:26.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Term_Evolution#Frequenzversteigerung_2015 |
| 08:28.26 | sixwheeledbeast | DocScrutinizer05: In UK 2G is expected to be pulled slowly while 4G is rolled out, even tho a lot of "services" still use 2G. |
| 08:31.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | I honestly wonder what they think. There's stuff like animal trackers made of a GPS and a cheap GSM with a worldwide SIM for SMSing the position |
| 08:31.02 | sixwheeledbeast | Anything with 2G only modem will fail, and that will have to be assessed on a site by site basis. |
| 08:32.16 | sixwheeledbeast | Security systems, animal trackers, gas/electric meter readers. There's a few services running on them that will need a HW upgrade if 2G disappears. |
| 08:32.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, damn expensive |
| 08:33.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | any no viable upgrade path in sight |
| 08:34.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | so about time to stand up and fight for continued 2G service |
| 08:35.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | damn privatization |
| 08:35.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | is that the right english term? |
| 08:36.08 | sixwheeledbeast | fortunately for us in the few years kit has been moving to IP over 3G, but legacy hardware will fail and that may mean a full system not just the signalling device. If they are trying to reduce electrical waste, why make kit that works stop working? |
| 08:37.02 | sixwheeledbeast | possibly the correct term, but comms have always been owned privately. |
| 08:37.12 | sixwheeledbeast | :) |
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| 08:38.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | in former times every phone was mandated to be able to make emergency calls, everywhere (even more back in time the authorities enforced all radio stations - on ships mainly - to forward all emergency calls of their competitors). Now in USA you already can see your 'smart'phone ceasing operation when you travel a 50km |
| 08:38.42 | Defiant | German communications service was public until ~1989/90 |
| 08:39.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, I know |
| 08:39.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | and seems they failed to mandate continuity on public interest services |
| 08:40.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | for 2G they specified that all carriers must be interoperable |
| 08:40.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's not modern anymore it seems. Neither is legacy support |
| 08:41.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | reduce electronic waste? LOL. They want you to buy a new device every 12 months |
| 08:42.18 | Defiant | 12? 6! |
| 08:42.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | or that |
| 08:43.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | I had to buy a new car, the ashtrays of my old one were filled |
| 08:44.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | </quote> |
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| 08:49.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | [notice] "Hetzner Online Statusmeldung: Urgent security updates on vHosts 1 - 1494" Start: October 2, 2015 8:30:00 AM CEST End: October 2, 2015 11:00:00 AM CEST (expected) |
| 08:49.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | LOL, almost over |
| 08:52.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | *cough* Konsole segfaulted on ctrl-shift-W |
| 08:54.44 | saper | runs dedicated @Hetzner |
| 08:55.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | runs several different boxen on Hetzner |
| 08:55.51 | saper | vhosts update? some Xen bug or something? |
| 08:56.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | no idea, they didn't disclose details |
| 08:56.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | prolly XEN |
| 08:57.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | what else would warrant such massive update with no lead time for warning |
| 08:58.08 | saper | those are those updates that Amazon did few months ago :) haha |
| 09:02.06 | sixwheeledbeast | DocScrutinizer05: WEEE ? isn't that a Euro thing? |
| 09:03.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://www.hetzner-status.de/en.html |
| 09:04.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | sixwheeledbeast: hm? |
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| 09:04.43 | sixwheeledbeast | ~wiki WEEE |
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| 09:07.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmm yes |
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