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| 01:36.39 | Oksana | >> in former times, the third contact was an NTC to test battery temperature. Seems that's not exactly the case anymore for BL-5J << Is it possible to bring this practice back? Would Neo900 be compatible with it? Would it help to charge battery in 30C without frying the battery? How difficult is it to make "smart", open-hardware battery compatible with N900-Neo900? /The smart charger chip... |
| 01:36.41 | Oksana | ...is BQ24297, right? Opening the data sheet, wondering how helpful it is... / |
| 01:38.18 | Oksana | What are HDQ and BSI? |
| 01:44.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | HDQ is a onewire bidir data bus protocol (see bq27000, _not_ bq27200), BSI is Nokia's 'Battery Size Indicator' |
| 01:49.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | and no, we didn't have a NTC in battery that's used for temperature sensing in N900, so we won't try to come up with this in Neo900 |
| 01:51.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | even while BL-5J actually has a NTC or PTC (can't recall) on BSI, we will not try to invent a 'new' scheme for temperature management around it |
| 01:52.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | it also seems that, since N900 doesn't use the battery internal NTC (dunno about other devices using same battery), there are batteries out there labeled "compatible to N900" which actually don't have a NTC but instead have a simple resistor |
| 01:53.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | using such a battery in a new design like you suggest would actually be dangerous |
| 01:57.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | (HDQ) http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/bq27200.pdf |
| 02:05.43 | wpwrak | DocScrutinizer05: i think Oksana is just looking for more ways to stop charging, not to charge more aggressively |
| 02:06.14 | wpwrak | (30 C ? what's that ? winter ?) |
| 02:10.03 | Oksanaa | wpwrak: I am actually looking for ways to charge safely while ambient temperatures are high |
| 02:12.32 | Oksanaa | 26°C-30°C is common temperature around here, and cautious DT-33 battery chargers do not want to charge. So retreating to air-conditioned building is the least-annoying option |
| 02:14.11 | wpwrak | Oksanaa: yup, and "safely" in this case means "cut back if anything seems amiss, even if finns wouldn't consider this a possibly risky scenario", right ? |
| 02:14.14 | Oksanaa | And yes, 3-contact charger would have to be fail-safed against simple-resistor batteries |
| 02:14.38 | wpwrak | (dt-33) ah, interesting |
| 02:15.09 | wpwrak | okay, so you're seeking the gap between (hopefully) overly cautious critters and the real boundaries |
| 02:16.08 | wpwrak | and the finns were playing it safe then :) |
| 02:16.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | as the name BSI already suggests, the resistance value on that contact isn't standardized but individual at least for different battery types. So any general purpose charger with ability to charge different battery types can not make any use of the NTC on 3rd contact |
| 02:16.32 | Oksanaa | Yes. Something akin to "charge battery while there is no damage to battery" |
| 02:17.03 | wpwrak | maybe we should add a smoke detector and a little halon bottle ... :) |
| 02:17.59 | wpwrak | Oksanaa: have you ever has trouble with batteries violently misbehaving ? or are you more concerned about accelerated aging ? |
| 02:18.08 | wpwrak | #s/has/had/ |
| 02:19.23 | Oksanaa | I have about one or two aged-or-something not-full-capacity batteries, and about four nice-capacity batteries |
| 02:19.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway Neo900 won't behave like DT-33 |
| 02:19.52 | Oksanaa | I am more concerned (currently) with refusing-to-charge situation |
| 02:20.19 | Oksanaa | Because it has better positioned battery temperature sensor? |
| 02:20.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | I don't know, I never looked into a DT-33 |
| 02:22.23 | Oksanaa | Like, ideally positioned sensor would cut-off charging around 45? |
| 02:23.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, and right now the internal temperature of my N900 is pretty much identical to room temperature |
| 02:24.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | which means there's not much heating it up except the battery charging itself |
| 02:24.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | which doesn't happen right now since it's unplugged |
| 02:25.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | so sensor is expected to actually show the battery cell temperature |
| 02:25.35 | wpwrak | DocScrutinizer05: hmm, do we have a battery spec sheet around somewhere ? maybe from gta02 ? |
| 02:25.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | I posted it a few hours ago, no |
| 02:25.52 | wpwrak | i kinda wonder how high they can go. 45 C would seem low. |
| 02:26.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://people.openmoko.org/joerg/battery/PACK950925.pdf |
| 02:26.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | 45° is from that one |
| 02:26.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | iirc |
| 02:26.49 | wpwrak | ah yes, that's the one. thanks ! |
| 02:26.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | [2016-02-13 Sat 16:09:36] <DocScrutinizer05> for some background see http://people.openmoko.org/joerg/battery/PACK950925.pdf specifically page 64 for allowable cell temperature range |
| 02:27.34 | wpwrak | indeed, 45 C |
| 02:28.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | temp range for charging is very narrow |
| 02:28.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, not THAT narrow, given that safety range ends at 60°C already |
| 02:28.56 | wpwrak | indeed. maybe an external battery then: http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/TL-5930%2FF/439-1028-ND/512530 |
| 02:29.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | huh? |
| 02:29.16 | wpwrak | that one's supposed to be good for up to 85 C. not sure if i believe it. |
| 02:29.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | depends on separator |
| 02:29.36 | wpwrak | but it would be very interesting to watch someone try to take that firecracker through airport security ;-) |
| 02:31.53 | Oksana | Hmm... Looking it up, and yes, I did get this 45 value from the pdf file :-) It's also mentioned here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery#Extreme_temperatures |
| 02:32.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's pretty common |
| 02:32.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | also the 60°C, while batteries tend to actually runaway at 70°C |
| 02:33.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | some might need more to go poooof |
| 02:33.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | I wouldn't bet on it |
| 02:33.33 | wpwrak | yes, looked at a pack from panasonic. 45 C, too |
| 02:34.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's mainly defined by cell chemistry I guess, so you'll find similar specs on all LiIon of that type |
| 02:34.39 | wpwrak | open letter: "dear battery industry, please make batteries also us down in the south can charge." |
| 02:34.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | while the safety limit is defined by separator as well |
| 02:35.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | I think you actually _may_ charge them at >45° but not at rate |
| 02:35.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | and possibly not up to final voltage |
| 02:36.20 | Oksana | firecracker: A tad bulky, cylindrical (I can guess that it is better battery shape, given how most battery types are cylindrical), very nice temperature range (-55 ºC to +85 ºC), is 3.6V good enough compatibility with 3.7V (how much current would N900-Neo900 typically draw from the battery? discharge plots are funny) and voltage increases with temperature (nice) |
| 02:38.08 | wpwrak | hmm, this suggests that it's mainly a question of battery life: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery#Extreme_temperatures |
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| 02:39.08 | wpwrak | the tech of the firecracker may be of this type: http://www.saftbatteries.com/press/press-releases/saft%E2%80%99s-ground-breaking-li-ion-cell-technologies-push-operating-temperatures-new |
| 02:39.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, this cell is not for phones etc, way too high Z |
| 02:39.53 | Oksana | Z? Impedance? Aka, not correct current despite similar voltage? |
| 02:40.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, doesn't provide sufficient current |
| 02:41.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | "similar voltage" - I see the voltage drops to as low as 3.2V with a mere 100mA |
| 02:42.02 | wpwrak | doesn't actually say. but yes, 500 mA pulse current is lame. |
| 02:43.15 | Oksana | Rechargeability No What?! |
| 02:43.17 | wpwrak | (V/T) ah, there it is. suckish indeed. |
| 02:46.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | maximum pulse current: 500mA. We need 2A or more |
| 02:47.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | (3.2V) "Discharge Characteristics" @ 33R|100mA |
| 02:47.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | this is a completely different cell chemistry |
| 02:48.28 | wpwrak | yeah, modem's greedy. 2 A for it alone. |
| 02:49.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | evidently different since it's a primary cell, no accu |
| 02:49.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | not rechargeable, for utility metering purposes |
| 02:50.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | meant to power your average animal tracker necklace |
| 02:50.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | or your alarm system |
| 02:52.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | generally systems that need to run for several years unattended |
| 02:52.56 | wpwrak | yeah, it's all wrong :( |
| 02:54.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | 5000h æ 4mA |
| 02:55.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | 1800h@10mA |
| 02:59.04 | wpwrak | perfect for smartwatches :) |
| 02:59.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep |
| 03:01.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | I guess they are meant for operation hour counters etc |
| 03:01.30 | Oksana | smartwatches... Of that size :-/ It would only fit inside the "human" hand, not inside smartwatch itself |
| 03:02.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | 80000h@0.2mA |
| 03:03.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | ideal for some humble hour counter LCD circuit |
| 03:03.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | almost 10 years |
| 03:04.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | exactly the type of device you expect to find at emergency power generators etc |
| 03:06.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | this type of "smart"watch |
| 03:06.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | smart enough to tell personal when to change the oil of the engine etc |
| 03:07.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | on your car you look at the odometer for that, on stationary engines you got a hour counter |
| 03:08.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | well actually contenporary cars might as well have a 'smart'watch with a battery like that, and tell you when to change oil in plaintext on the dashboard display |
| 03:13.46 | Oksana | Nice... To survive extreme temperatures, Nickel Metal Hydride is recommended instead of LiIon: http://www.batterypoweronline.com/images/PDFs_articles_whitepaper_appros/MicroPowerBatteriesExtreme.pdf Charge cut-off at 60C? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel%E2%80%93metal_hydride_battery#.CE.94T_temperature_charging_method |
| 03:14.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, NiMH are more resiliant regarding temperature. Ask speedevil who did high altitude balloon stuff with cameras etc |
| 03:18.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | OUCH!! >>A single cell driving a load or a cell connected in parallel to other cells cannot suffer from polarity reversal, because no other cells are present.[citation needed]<< citation: Aristoteles |
| 03:19.27 | Oksana | What does it even mean? /Not going to mix up + and - terminals, regardless of what is written; some electronics would get fried by such carelessness/ |
| 03:51.46 | wpwrak | DocScrutinizer05: i have a more daring conjecture: no cell in parallel to no other cell can also never suffer from reversal ;-) |
| 03:52.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | the reversal happens on deep discharge, so yes |
| 03:53.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | Oksana: it's about cell damage by deep discharge of stacks |
| 04:08.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | \o/ xiangfu finished CNY :-) |
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| 20:56.52 | robotanarchy_ | can someone tell me, which one the GSM modem is? https://paste.geekify.de/p5umrnjvq/itzbq6/raw |
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| 20:57.33 | robotanarchy_ | ...if it is there at all |
| 20:58.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | nope, isn't |
| 20:58.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | modem in N900 is connected via SSI/HSI and shows up as a network interface |
| 20:59.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | module cmt_speech 8952 1 is the kernel module for audio |
| 21:00.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | here's all from lsmod: |
| 21:00.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | ssi_mcsaab_imp 11316 0 |
| 21:00.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | phonet 15336 22 pn_pep,ssi_mcsaab_imp |
| 21:00.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | cmt_speech 8952 1 |
| 21:01.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://paste.opensuse.org/51813246 |
| 21:04.29 | robotanarchy_ | DocScrutinizer05: thanks! modprobe phonet and modprobe cmt_speech worked, and now I have more devices |
| 21:04.43 | robotanarchy_ | 2: upnlink0: <POINTOPOINT,NOARP> mtu 65541 qdisc noop state DOWN group default qlen 1 |
| 21:04.45 | robotanarchy_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:04.47 | robotanarchy_ | that seems to be it |
| 21:04.50 | robotanarchy_ | from ip a |
| 21:04.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep |
| 21:05.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | now you 'just' need some ISI-driver |
| 21:05.38 | robotanarchy_ | Where can I find the best patched kernel btw? right now I run https://github.com/pali/linux-n900 4.4-rc7, as it was recommended in the debian900 config file |
| 21:05.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | ask freemangordon |
| 21:06.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | and/or Pali |
| 21:06.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | generally you're prolly more on-topic in #maemo |
| 21:06.52 | Pali | yes, this is last tree with n900 patches which we have |
| 21:07.07 | Wizzup | robotanarchy_: cool, so that is (modem) works in 4.4-rc7 |
| 21:07.09 | bencoh | what about v4.5-rc1? |
| 21:07.09 | Pali | modem should work |
| 21:07.12 | Wizzup | It didn't work yet in 4.1-rcX |
| 21:07.19 | Pali | modem is part of mainline kernel btw |
| 21:07.27 | Pali | with cmt audio too! |
| 21:07.39 | Pali | see: http://elinux.org/N900 |
| 21:07.42 | Wizzup | I tried it in 4.1, didn't work, but it seems 4.4. may give me better luck |
| 21:07.54 | Wizzup | Pali: so I guess maemo can almost run on it, too? |
| 21:08.00 | Wizzup | I recall FMG was doing some work on the userspace part |
| 21:08.13 | bencoh | robotanarchy_: btw http://pavelmachek.livejournal.com/130784.html |
| 21:08.20 | Pali | yes, patched! maemo works (somehow) on that linux-n900 tree |
| 21:08.34 | Wizzup | cool. |
| 21:10.02 | robotanarchy_ | bencoh: thanks! I didn't try the 4.5-rc1 branch yet, as it is not the default on that github page :p |
| 21:10.16 | robotanarchy_ | 4.4.-rc7 was just the first one I saw |
| 21:11.52 | robotanarchy_ | Pali: also thanks for the elinux.org link |
| 21:12.23 | Wizzup | I should build 4.4-rc7 |
| 21:12.27 | Wizzup | I have my test n900 with me :) |
| 21:12.46 | Wizzup | Pali: also, jw, any news on that audio race condition problem? |
| 21:12.54 | Wizzup | I know you CC'd me at some point |
| 21:17.22 | Wizzup | bencoh: also wondering how he managed to make a call, old pulseaudio? |
| 21:20.16 | bencoh | dunno |
| 21:34.11 | robotanarchy_ | DocScrutinizer05: I'll ask in #maemo next time, thanks for the hint. So... after looking through all /dev/ entries, I actually do not have a new device. although there are SSI related modules active: https://paste.geekify.de/pfwye2bax |
| 21:35.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, I'm at my wisdom's end |
| 21:36.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | I guess network devices like NIC or HSI-modem don't show up as devices but rather under ifconfig as network interfaces |
| 21:37.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | doesn't make much sense in a UNIX perspective, but I actually wouldn't know which /dev device is my ethernet NIC either |
| 21:38.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | /dev/net/* ? |
| 21:38.34 | robotanarchy_ | there's only /dev/net/tun, which is some fake device, that also openvpn uses, right? |
| 21:38.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | prolly right |
| 21:39.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | I have no clue here |
| 21:39.08 | robotanarchy_ | okay, thanks anyway :) |
| 21:39.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | yw |
| 21:40.00 | bencoh | don't you need phonet? |
| 21:40.12 | bencoh | hmm, maybe not |
| 21:40.59 | robotanarchy_ | bencoh: I am not sure to be honest |
| 21:41.27 | bencoh | ENV{INTERFACE}=="phonet[0-9]*", RUN+="/lib/phonet-utils/netif-up $env{INTERFACE}" |
| 21:41.32 | bencoh | I see that in udev rules |
| 21:42.48 | bencoh | and netif-up basically runs phonet -a "$ADDR" -i "$IFACE" || exit $? |
| 21:42.48 | bencoh | ip link set dev "$IFACE" up || ifconfig "$IFACE" up |
| 21:42.49 | bencoh | phonet -a "$ADDR" -i "$IFACE" || exit $? |
| 21:42.49 | bencoh | ip link set dev "$IFACE" up || ifconfig "$IFACE" up |
| 21:42.57 | bencoh | woops, sorry for the double-paste |
| 21:43.11 | bencoh | so yeah, you need phonet to set the link up |
| 21:43.46 | robotanarchy_ | bencoh: where's phonet usually packaged in? debian doesn't seem to have it packed |
| 21:44.17 | freemangordon | robotanarchy_: it is part of the kernel |
| 21:44.49 | bencoh | freemangordon: the userland? |
| 21:44.57 | freemangordon | phonet |
| 21:45.05 | freemangordon | is a .ko |
| 21:45.22 | bencoh | I'm talking about the phonet userland util used in maemo |
| 21:45.30 | bencoh | don't we need it on mainline/linux-n900? |
| 21:45.51 | freemangordon | oh, it is sscd iirc |
| 21:46.23 | bencoh | ah? |
| 21:47.15 | bencoh | I wonder why the udev rule is needed then |
| 21:48.51 | robotanarchy_ | freemangordon: what does sscd mean? |
| 21:50.43 | freemangordon | bencoh: because it uses AF_PHONET socket :) |
| 21:52.10 | freemangordon | robotanarchy_: "Daemon for controlling cellular modem" |
| 21:53.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | prolly SSI connection||control daemon |
| 21:54.44 | freemangordon | robotanarchy_: closed source, won't find it in debian |
| 21:55.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | the ISI thing |
| 21:55.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | basically |
| 21:55.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | [2016-02-15 Mon 22:05:26] <DocScrutinizer05> now you 'just' need some ISI-driver |
| 21:56.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | you might find some ISI stuff in ofono and FSO |
| 21:56.16 | bencoh | freemangordon: do we really need sscd outside of maemo? |
| 21:56.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | bencoh: for N900 yes |
| 21:56.47 | bencoh | hmm |
| 21:56.52 | robotanarchy_ | DocScrutinizer05: oh, I thought isi was a typo and you ment ssi >_< |
| 21:56.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, or something similar |
| 21:56.59 | bencoh | pavel doesn't mention it |
| 21:57.10 | bencoh | I guess ofono does all the needed stuff (for phone) |
| 21:57.13 | bencoh | but what about modem? |
| 21:57.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | ofono has an interface for ISI |
| 21:57.36 | bencoh | yeah, isimodem |
| 21:58.29 | bencoh | ah, looks like ofono/isimodem has some gprs function... dunno if it really works |
| 21:58.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | prolly gprs is the simplest part |
| 21:59.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | aiui it just opens a virtual channel on SSI for the data |
| 21:59.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | dunno if that's PPPoE or whatever protocol |
| 22:00.19 | bencoh | certainly not oE :) |
| 22:00.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | PPPoI ;-) |
| 22:03.55 | robotanarchy_ | FSO doesn't have anything ISI related from what I can find (site:freesmartphone.org ISI). So I guess ofono is really needed :p |
| 22:12.21 | robotanarchy_ | found something interesting here: http://lwn.net/Articles/592485/ " # provide cmt device for ofono |
| 22:12.23 | robotanarchy_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:12.40 | robotanarchy_ | I'll try that after rebooting, because I unloaded some modules and can't reload them for some reason |
| 22:17.57 | robotanarchy_ | there is /sys/bus/hsi/devices/n900-modem/. I'll play around with that tormorrow or so |
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| 23:48.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | robotanarchy_: I don't see any 'modem' in my maemo fremantle system in /sys, however there's /sys/bus/ssi/* |
| 23:49.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | maemo kernel doesn't have hsi yet |
| 23:50.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | on newer kernels hsi module handles ssi too |