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| 13:57.42 | ilmaisin | hi |
| 13:58.39 | ilmaisin | the price estimate of neo900 seems to be quite high for the performance |
| 13:59.13 | ilmaisin | who will be the target audience? government agencies and hardcore privacy enthustiasts? |
| 14:01.15 | ilmaisin | i have wondered if it would be possible to make a custom order to some mainstream phone manufactuter for a run of device that has customized firmware to faciliate easy installation of custom operating system... |
| 14:01.35 | ilmaisin | like system76 and such do for pcs |
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| 15:20.55 | pigeons | illwieckz: the hardware is what is interesting about the neo900 though. So a "mainstream" phone with customized firmware (which firmware?) wouldn't be as interesting to neo900 supporters |
| 15:22.18 | bencoh | not that I so much want all the neo900 hw features, but ... current "mainstream" phones just dont qualify :) |
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| 15:23.42 | pigeons | To answer your target audience question, It seems to be mostly n900 users and lovers mostly. They need more orders but are busy building the thing so maybe the word isn't out enugh to some of the other audience, such as people who like to use devices that do what they say, people who aren't interested in losing more privacy, open hardare enthusiasts, open software enthusiasts, people disasstified with curr |
| 15:23.42 | pigeons | ent nobile operating systems, people who want a small linux computer, etc |
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| 16:05.50 | ilmaisin | pigeons: yes, it sounds like something i would maybe like to have, but more than thousand dollars for a very low spec machine and a second hand casing is not something i could afford |
| 16:09.03 | ilmaisin | google really should have mandated a standardized boot sequence and isolated baseband for android phones like they with the chromebooks, the current situation is a complete disaster |
| 16:29.36 | MonkeyofDoom | the current situation will pretty much remain a disaster unless we fund projects like this one |
| 16:29.44 | MonkeyofDoom | that's the most important aspect of neo900 imo |
| 16:30.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | indeed |
| 16:31.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | please see our cost estimation. It's not like we want to get filthy rich and that was the reason for this price. We need to work with ultra low volumes and parts we actually can source |
| 16:32.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's like arguing about the price of a hand crafted unique oldtimer replica car, vs the average Toyota |
| 16:33.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | our modem module alone costs more than some cheap android smartphones do |
| 16:33.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | in *sourcing*, not on sales |
| 16:34.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | we earn zilch on it |
| 16:36.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | you can't buy a 100 Rolls royce engines, build the frame and chassis around it by your own, and hope to sell 100 cars that are competitively priced to Toyotas |
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| 16:42.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | even at Openmoko Inc where we calculated with tens of thousands of devices to build, we decided to use a modem module from Siemens/Cinterion for the original GTA03/04 (not the GolDeliCo dub named device Nikolaus built), simply because we couldn't afford doing our own baseband from scratch for those low volumes |
| 16:43.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | and "own baseband" there still means using chips from MTK or whomever, just building a working radio from them and **have that debugged and certified** |
| 16:44.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | that Cinterion module been the 075i back when |
| 16:47.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://uk.farnell.com/cinterion/mc75i/module-gsm-gprs-edge-quad-band/dp/1718875 |
| 16:49.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | even for UMTS royalties were too high |
| 16:50.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's not like cellular phone industry was a particularly friendly and welcomming place to do business |
| 16:50.44 | ilmaisin | DocScrutinizer05: yeah, i know it's difficult, even microsoft with all those resources ultimately failed to enter that market |
| 16:50.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep |
| 16:51.00 | ilmaisin | DocScrutinizer05: but the estimated cost is simply too much for me |
| 16:51.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | I understand and feel with you, I wish there was *anything* we could do about it |
| 16:51.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | believe me, nobody feels more bad about that price than I do |
| 16:53.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | then OTOH our target client group is very special and we hope are willing to pay for the premium properties we deliver |
| 16:53.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | premium in design, not in numbers |
| 16:54.51 | ksx4system | DocScrutinizer05: what's wrong with Siemens' module? |
| 16:55.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | ozr CPU isn't the latest octocore, but I'm quite cobnfident it's just fast enough for a decent system that's not desined the windows way (also followed by android) of "We always provide a sufficiently bloated system to guarantee whatever hardware you can come up with, it will be slow" |
| 16:55.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | ksx4system: sorry? |
| 16:55.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | nothing wrong |
| 16:55.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | did I say something wrong with it? |
| 16:56.03 | ksx4system | simply doesn't get the idea of custom baseband *and* radio |
| 16:56.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | baseband=radio |
| 16:56.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | actually the term baseband is missleading and commonly used incorrectly |
| 16:57.16 | ksx4system | probably... |
| 16:58.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | originally baseband been the control layer (as opposed to the RF and protocol layers) of a modem |
| 16:59.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | so your typical baseband processor pretty much resembled the application processor running linux in N900 and Neo * |
| 17:00.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | nowadays the typical smartphone has only one (octocore ;-P) CPU doing both baseband and APE |
| 17:00.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | with the baseband being master or supervisor amd the APE being basically a VM inside |
| 17:00.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | even Jolla using this approach |
| 17:01.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | this tells you a bit about the privacy properties to expect from such a design |
| 17:01.40 | ksx4system | is it even possible to put fully open source LTE radio on the market? |
| 17:01.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | no |
| 17:01.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | plain simple no |
| 17:02.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | open source maybe, but not FOSS |
| 17:02.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | nothing forbids you disclose (= open) your baseband and radio stack sources. But you must not allow user to tinker with it, or you won't get approval |
| 17:03.25 | ksx4system | ...so it's basically impossible to build (and put on the market) NSA-proof LTE radio? |
| 17:03.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | so what you get in *any* modem is a tivoized design that doesn't allow user modifications |
| 17:04.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | depends what you mean by 2NSA-proof" |
| 17:04.26 | ksx4system | free of american backdoors |
| 17:04.33 | ilmaisin | one could maybe run it on ham bands, but they don't allow encryption, not at least in finland |
| 17:04.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | the GSM7LTE standards themselves have spec details that are exploitable |
| 17:05.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | you can't sanitize the protocols |
| 17:05.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | they are fixed |
| 17:05.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | for backdoors granting access to your device: buy a Neo900 :-)) |
| 17:05.40 | ksx4system | lol |
| 17:05.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's 100% NSA-proof on that level |
| 17:06.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | prolly the only existing phone that is |
| 17:06.03 | ilmaisin | would it be easier to build a PDA? |
| 17:06.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | (soon existing) |
| 17:06.10 | ksx4system | will there be hardware switch for cell radio in Neo900? |
| 17:06.44 | dal | So what is it that's happening when someone installs dd-wrt or openwrt on a router |
| 17:06.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, we have a hardware FET switch under 100% exclusive user control |
| 17:06.57 | dal | I think those are open-source programs...and when I installed ddwrt on a router, |
| 17:07.13 | dal | it gave me some extra ability to fritz with how the device sent WiFi signals |
| 17:07.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's WiFi, not WWAN |
| 17:08.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | OpenWRT/Freetz tweak the WiFi firmware |
| 17:09.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | for above elaborated reasons we can't do that on WWAN modem |
| 17:09.15 | dal | I see |
| 17:09.34 | MonkeyofDoom | dal: by PDA, you mean phonealike with no actual telephone capability? |
| 17:09.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | note that recently EU and FCC push for tivoisation of WLAN as well |
| 17:10.22 | dal | MonkeyofDoom: Not sure where I said PDA? public display of affection? :) |
| 17:10.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | MonkeyofDoom: I think it's been ilmaisin who asked |
| 17:10.53 | MonkeyofDoom | oops! |
| 17:11.09 | ksx4system | DocScrutinizer05: imported chinese Wi-Fi hardware and they could kiss my ass |
| 17:11.15 | MonkeyofDoom | ilmaisin: ^ |
| 17:11.19 | dal | bbl |
| 17:12.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | fols, sorry but I just has a almost 3h Neo900 meeting, 10min after jumpin outa my bed, and now I need to finally "wake up" and get some breakfast |
| 17:12.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | folks* |
| 17:12.31 | ksx4system | bon appetit DocScrutinizer05 |
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| 18:30.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | [2016-08-07 Sun 20:20:26] <joerg_rw> it's just SIP adapters are FOSS (telepathy sofiasip) instead of that freking ISI closed blob libs Nokia used to talk to the modem |
| 18:30.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | [2016-08-07 Sun 20:21:13] <joerg_rw> for audio we need a ALSA card to talk to the modem |
| 18:30.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | [2016-08-07 Sun 20:22:02] <joerg_rw> the SIP adapter would bridge between RTP and that ALSA card |
| 18:30.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | [2016-08-07 Sun 20:22:26] <joerg_rw> EEEK but as long as it works.... |
| 18:30.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | [2016-08-07 Sun 20:23:59] <joerg_rw> the SIP<->modem control basically converts SIP INVITE <number> into ATD<number>; and SIP BYE into ATH |
| 18:31.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | [2016-08-07 Sun 20:24:48] <joerg_rw> plus a few progress replies from modem into the according SIP messages |
| 18:31.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | [2016-08-07 Sun 20:25:21] <joerg_rw> RINGING -> "300 TRYING" or whatever |
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| 20:05.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | [2016-08-07 Sun 21:34:08] <wpwrak> joerg_rw: something along these lines seems to work: http://askubuntu.com/questions/626744/udev-rules-to-allow-only-one-vendor-and-model-usb-drive-but-no-others |
| 20:05.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | oops sorry |
| 20:06.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway that's about our (USB-attached) modem and how to secure the USB against any attacks |
| 20:07.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | not that such attack would be any likely |
| 20:07.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | since any attacker first needs to "root" the modem completely |
| 20:08.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | any standard shared-RAM architecture simply has no such second defense line at all, any attackaer rooting the modem has instant and complete control over your whole device |
| 20:11.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's why the recently disclosed ASN.1 vulnerability has such massive impact and makes NSA et al cheer and do dance of joy |
| 20:12.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | it allows to root modem of a majority of contemporary smartphones, and they virtually all have shared RAM |
| 20:15.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | either shared RAM or other tight integration of modem into the main system environment, allowing modem to take over complete control |
| 20:30.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | in the cheap shared-RAM smartphone you find a vuln like ASN.1 compromising the modem and you have instant access to the whole system since modem has instant and permanent access to whole system. In Neo900 you find a vuln in modem maybe and you run into the next checkpoint called USB interface |
| 20:30.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | could you possibly cross that second checkpoint too? yes, of course, though your chances are low. Could you cross it without our monitoring detecting something very suspicious going on with the modem? hardly |
| 20:30.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | might anybody ever try to go that route? âhighlyâ unlikely since there are waaay cheaper methods to achieve the same purpose |
| 20:30.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | so for all that matters, Neo900 is absolutely safe from threats coming from modem |
| 20:37.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | this hared-RAM disease spread in phone design like the flu because it allows savings on BOM and none of the engineers ever considered the firmware their own colleagues provide for the modem might ever become a security threat |
| 20:37.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | s/ hared/ shared/ |
| 20:40.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | just like until UMTS nobody ever thought the *base station* should provide a proof of own authenticity to the mobile device. Thus making possible a dirt cheap approach to take over a phone by simply impersonating a (better signal) base station |
| 20:41.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | you can do this with a 20 EUR calypso based featurephone and OsmocomBB |
| 21:30.08 | atk | ASN.1 vuln? |
| 21:30.46 | atk | how is a standard and notation that describes rules and structures for representing, encoding, and decoding data vulnerable? :P |
| 21:31.00 | atk | searches the internets |
| 21:31.22 | atk | I presume it is a vulnerability in a parser? |
| 21:34.10 | atk | parser/encoder/decoder (one of the three) |
| 21:34.42 | atk | ah, asn1c |
| 21:37.20 | atk | Well this sounds like... the most wonderful bug.. |
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