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15:27.39 | ahycka | wpwrak, Joerg-Neo900: i would like to add a 0R serie resistor in each line of in SPI bus (RFID/NFC - nfc.sch) |
15:27.56 | ahycka | i had some problems in SPI bus between ADCs and FPGA |
15:27.57 | Joerg-Neo900 | of course, go ahead |
15:28.02 | Joerg-Neo900 | :-) |
15:28.29 | ahycka | and i had to cut the line to solder 100ohm Resistor in serie |
15:28.39 | Joerg-Neo900 | ack |
15:29.01 | Joerg-Neo900 | source side? |
15:29.19 | Joerg-Neo900 | or termination side, or in the exact middle between the two? |
15:29.51 | Joerg-Neo900 | I'd think source side, though there are good arguments for termination side too |
15:30.22 | Joerg-Neo900 | anyway on source side we have waaay more PCB real estate right now ;-) |
15:30.34 | ahycka | i put it in source side |
15:30.39 | Joerg-Neo900 | :-D |
15:30.45 | ahycka | because i had FPGA and 2ADCs |
15:30.48 | ahycka | 1 master |
15:30.50 | ahycka | 2 slaves |
15:30.53 | Joerg-Neo900 | :nod: |
15:30.58 | Joerg-Neo900 | usual |
15:31.06 | ahycka | in this case, i think doesnt matter |
15:31.15 | ahycka | there is only 1 master and 1 slave |
15:31.48 | Joerg-Neo900 | it's about driver strength and about ringing aka reflexions |
15:32.17 | Joerg-Neo900 | reflexions are at ends, driver strength best controlled at master side |
15:32.29 | Joerg-Neo900 | aiui at least |
15:32.45 | ahycka | yes, but SPI is strange, in another board, i had 1 PIC and 2 DDS without any serie resistor, and it works perfectly |
15:32.58 | ahycka | 1 FPGA and 2 ADCS didnt work without resistor |
15:33.00 | Joerg-Neo900 | a typical case of "we rather test this in RL and see what works best" |
15:33.24 | ahycka | and i only find some documentation in a book named something like "digital black magic" |
15:33.25 | ahycka | xD |
15:33.45 | Joerg-Neo900 | what a fitting name :-) |
15:34.30 | ahycka | " High-Speed Digital Design: A Handbook of Black Magic, Johnson, Graham 1993" |
15:34.30 | Joerg-Neo900 | it's about chip pin / driver/receiver circuitry impedances |
15:34.32 | ahycka | here! |
15:34.33 | ahycka | hahahahahaha |
15:35.13 | ahycka | but our SPI works at 1MHz! |
15:35.20 | ahycka | it's not high frecuency |
15:35.24 | wpwrak | our SPIs run at a fairly leisurely speed. 12.5 MHz tops, but more likely around 6.78 MHz, or less |
15:35.31 | ahycka | 1MHz,5cm length? |
15:35.36 | Joerg-Neo900 | yeah, not much troubles expected to show up at this |
15:35.49 | ahycka | black magic! |
15:37.00 | Joerg-Neo900 | anyway, please go ahead adding those, they are actually a oversight not being in there already |
15:37.19 | Joerg-Neo900 | :-) |
15:38.39 | Joerg-Neo900 | recalls how happy everybody was to have the programmable driver strength when uSD clock interfered with GPS RX |
15:39.57 | Joerg-Neo900 | who would have thought that the (iirc) 7th harmonic of clock was *exactly* on GPS frequency |
15:40.36 | Joerg-Neo900 | nah, must have been like 20th or higher |
15:40.48 | Joerg-Neo900 | X-P |
15:41.32 | Joerg-Neo900 | a tiny 4.7pF fixed it pretty good |
15:41.55 | Joerg-Neo900 | somesuch botch |
15:42.13 | Joerg-Neo900 | \o/ |
15:45.49 | Joerg-Neo900 | http://wiki.openmoko.org/images/d/dd/Gta02_gps_10pf_rework_sop.pdf |
15:47.05 | Joerg-Neo900 | http://wiki.openmoko.org/images/5/5b/SOP_for_GPS_capacitor_rework.pdf |
15:49.14 | atk | when random capacitors and squiggly traces make the difference between broken and working, you know you're dealing with high speed electronics or RF stuff |
15:49.33 | Joerg-Neo900 | hehe, yes |
15:50.08 | atk | Especially interesting are those high end oscilloscopes which look like someone went into paint and drew random shapes and then made a PCB out of it. |
15:50.30 | Joerg-Neo900 | this capacitor though wasn't exactly random. I even calculated the capacitance of the chewing gum paper somebody stuck on top of the uSD card which evidently fixed the issue ;-P |
15:51.44 | atk | I wonder how someone came up with the idea of putting chewing gum wrapper on the SD card |
15:52.18 | Joerg-Neo900 | we also tested the effect of the increased capacitive burden on clock slew rate |
15:52.50 | Joerg-Neo900 | (idea) I don't know, our users were *very* innovative |
15:53.04 | wpwrak | paper = "shielding" :) |
15:54.10 | Joerg-Neo900 | was a very nasty heissenbug too since it only hit those who actually used their uSD and same time GPS |
15:54.51 | Joerg-Neo900 | we tested GPS as nauseum and didn't find a problem since none of the engineers had a uSD in their test devices |
15:55.00 | wpwrak | wasn't it that the GPS antenna was too close to uSD ? |
15:55.02 | atk | ( https://youtu.be/1QBFIfKlvHU?t=46m5s - voodoo RF PCB design ) |
15:55.54 | Joerg-Neo900 | atk: preeeeetty |
15:58.06 | atk | 48:35 - even more weird shapes and squiggles |
15:58.24 | Joerg-Neo900 | 48:30 ROTFL |
15:58.32 | Joerg-Neo900 | yeah |
15:59.34 | Joerg-Neo900 | giggles |
16:00.00 | Joerg-Neo900 | http://wstaw.org/m/2016/12/05/plasma-desktopj17764.png |
16:03.03 | Joerg-Neo900 | wpwrak: I don't know if the mere distance ever been considered |
16:04.08 | Joerg-Neo900 | can't be physical distance to the patch antenna since that one was at very top end of device |
16:04.39 | Joerg-Neo900 | fsckd up EMC |
16:05.35 | Joerg-Neo900 | the clock simply was allowed to radiate I guess, nobody checked what *exactly* was the failure operation mode |
16:06.23 | Joerg-Neo900 | maybe a trace was too close to the clock trace, maybe (my fav) the card holder simply acted as antenna |
16:08.12 | Joerg-Neo900 | but yeah, you can see the GPS antenna plug next to the uSD holder |
16:10.28 | wpwrak | yup. rolling out the red carpet for trouble ;) |
16:10.31 | Joerg-Neo900 | who knows which sort of aerial the gndplane forms with the sleeve shielding of the antenna cable, creating waves propagating along the cable surface to the whole patch antenne and there jumping directly to the antenna patch and into the amp# |
16:11.33 | Joerg-Neo900 | never forget: *ALL* antennas are dipoles |
16:12.33 | Joerg-Neo900 | so wiggling with the GNd potential of the patch LNA antenna is exactly same as sening a signal to the antenna patch on top of it |
16:12.50 | Joerg-Neo900 | sending |
16:14.12 | Joerg-Neo900 | and a wire shielding gaze running in parallel to the gnd plane it's connected to forms a nice loop antenna by itself |
16:15.42 | Joerg-Neo900 | s/gaze/braid/ |
16:16.54 | Joerg-Neo900 | reducing the clock driver strength and damping the slew rate further by a 10pF load effectively cured the issue though |
16:17.44 | Joerg-Neo900 | and simply doing "the right thing" and switch off clock as long as uSD had no operations to perform was the final killer of the issue |
16:18.31 | Joerg-Neo900 | at least as long as you were not constantly loading map tiles from uSD while using GPS |
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17:01.33 | Joerg-Neo900 | wpwrak: D1402 IR-LED VBAT n uF bypass capacitor to GND missing |
17:04.02 | Joerg-Neo900 | also we *might* consider a series R in/from gate to R1410, to reduce slew rate of high current |
17:07.16 | Joerg-Neo900 | >>In other cases, a maximum slew rate is specified[2] in order to limit the high frequency content present in the signal, thereby preventing such undesirable effects as ringing or radiated EMI<< https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slew_rate |
17:09.13 | Joerg-Neo900 | we don't need frequency components >500kHz there |
17:10.00 | Joerg-Neo900 | a very rough guestimate by parasitic capacity of gate and 500kHz is absolutely sufficient for size of series R |
17:10.33 | Joerg-Neo900 | we have am order of magintude headroom for error to the low side |
17:11.23 | Joerg-Neo900 | and no hard limits at all to the higher frequency side |
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17:59.05 | ahycka | Joerg-Neo900, could you make me a branch to push my schematics review? (SPI resistors) |
17:59.57 | ahycka | i can push/pull in master but i cant checkout a new branch |
18:00.16 | ahycka | push the new branch, I mean |
18:03.55 | wpwrak | ahycka: that would be for hellekin (joerg doesn't know much about such details of the git setup). i've notified him. |
18:04.55 | ahycka | i can ask him |
18:05.01 | ahycka | how900? |
18:05.28 | how900 | yo ahycka |
18:05.57 | ahycka | hi! |
18:06.11 | ahycka | could you make me a branch to push my schematics review? |
18:06.27 | ahycka | i can push/pull in master but i can push a new branch |
18:06.31 | how900 | you have a dedicated branch, let me see... If you ssh git@neo900.org you should have it listed... |
18:07.22 | how900 | ahycka: it's proto_v2 |
18:07.43 | wpwrak | how900: ah, you're already here, good :) |
18:08.22 | ahycka | PTY allocation request failed on channel 0 |
18:08.22 | ahycka | hello ahycka, this is git@newbie running gitolite3 v3.6.6-2-g8620d5f on git 2.10.0 |
18:08.22 | ahycka | <PROTECTED> |
18:08.23 | ahycka | <PROTECTED> |
18:08.23 | ahycka | Connection to neo900.org closed. |
18:08.52 | ahycka | i can't see proto v2 xD |
18:11.24 | how900 | OK, but if you run: git push -u origin proto_v2 it should work ahycka |
18:11.42 | how900 | try this :) |
18:13.14 | wpwrak | how900: is the idea that we'd all work on the proto_v2 branch then ? or would that be ahycka's branch, and we then merge into master ? |
18:14.11 | Joerg-Neo900 | the latter |
18:29.31 | ahycka | wpwrak, by the moment i only add 8 resistor in 2 SPI bus |
18:29.48 | ahycka | the best part is that kicad is plain text! O_O |
18:29.51 | ahycka | altium is binary |
18:30.26 | ahycka | so, it's impossible compare 2 versions |
18:30.38 | wpwrak | ahycka: kicad has its share of quirks despite the text, too :) |
18:30.48 | Joerg-Neo900 | with kicad and Neo900 you get eeschow :-) |
18:31.11 | wpwrak | ahycka: e.g., if you run ERC, invisible information on all the power symbols changes |
18:32.05 | Joerg-Neo900 | not terribly useful for git, but for "compare" it's without any competition |
18:32.47 | wpwrak | ahycka: also, sometimes you redraw a few things, commit, and when you open the sheet again, without making changes, eeschema decides to optimize some wires. so you suddently get a bunch of hard to interpret changes out of the blue. of course, there aren't "real", which eeshow can tell (i.e., no difference) |
18:33.17 | wpwrak | Joerg-Neo900: comparing is especially useful with git ;-) |
18:33.32 | Joerg-Neo900 | with git, but not FOR git |
18:34.24 | wpwrak | ah, your visual merge. yeah, that would be quite a project :) |
18:34.35 | Joerg-Neo900 | git diff is (c-)sourcecode centric by design |
18:35.05 | Joerg-Neo900 | the more so is git merge |
18:36.33 | wpwrak | with kicad, git diff tells you when there's a lot more going on than you expected :) |
18:36.46 | wpwrak | and yes, avoid git merge of kicad files |
18:36.55 | ahycka | wpwrak rocks!! \o/ |
18:37.06 | Joerg-Neo900 | for very simple changes git merge might work for kicad, but as soon as it gets a tiny bit more involved or kicad messes up, you're lost |
18:37.19 | ahycka | xD |
18:37.38 | wpwrak | :) |
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19:10.48 | ceene | just so you know |
19:11.06 | ceene | http://statics.cuantarazon.com/crs/2016/03/CR_1001836_si_estuviera_encendido_estarias_llorando_amiga_thumb_fb.jpg |
19:11.12 | ceene | this is NOT ahycka |
19:11.23 | Joerg-Neo900 | oooh |
19:11.41 | ceene | she still has all ten fingers :) |
19:12.03 | Joerg-Neo900 | ROTFL |
19:12.09 | Joerg-Neo900 | good spotting |
19:12.21 | ceene | too much protection for the eys, she forgot the adamantium gloves |
19:12.27 | ceene | s/eys/eyes/ |
19:12.49 | ceene | what was she expecting to happen? exploding capacitors? |
19:12.56 | ahycka | hahahahahaha |
19:14.18 | ahycka | she needs a shower cap, i always burn me some hair :( |
19:15.22 | wpwrak | ceene: (fingers) that's daenerys |
19:16.00 | Joerg-Neo900 | ~dict daenerys |
19:16.06 | wpwrak | the glasses are probably some fashion statement |
19:16.33 | Joerg-Neo900 | oooh, now even my patter matching got it |
19:17.14 | wpwrak | ;-) |
19:17.45 | Joerg-Neo900 | (glasses) useful when soldering on high energy active circuits |
19:18.19 | Joerg-Neo900 | a 100A@400V arc isn't a joke when you're not wearing glasses |
19:18.30 | ahycka | ask ceene!!!! |
19:18.30 | ahycka | xD |
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19:18.43 | Joerg-Neo900 | I don't need to ask anybody ;-D |
19:18.53 | Joerg-Neo900 | 3 days blind |
19:19.13 | Joerg-Neo900 | though I wasn't soldering |
19:19.13 | ahycka | ceene only 10h |
19:19.41 | Joerg-Neo900 | mains distribution and a A size battery cell fell in and shorted all 3 phases |
19:19.43 | ahycka | we are playing with high power stage of a lcd... |
19:20.00 | ahycka | measuring voltage |
19:20.14 | ahycka | and... |
19:20.19 | Joerg-Neo900 | was quite a flash and bang |
19:20.20 | ahycka | what a beautifull arc!!! |
19:20.59 | ahycka | 5h watching lights |
19:21.11 | Joerg-Neo900 | then I had to replace 2 of the 3 63A slowblow fuses |
19:21.39 | Joerg-Neo900 | and to take care of my eyeballs suffering severe UV light burn |
19:22.19 | ahycka | we were trying to fix the monitor, we killed it :( and monitor went to trash |
19:22.30 | Joerg-Neo900 | dang |
19:22.45 | Joerg-Neo900 | as long as nobody got severly injured |
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19:23.32 | ceene | nah, it was a loud bang |
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19:23.40 | ceene | another girl in the lab almost jumped to the ceiling |
19:23.57 | Joerg-Neo900 | luckily my mishap happened in a feeble 3 room flat distribution |
19:24.02 | ceene | but i kept seeing lights on one eye during the rest of the day |
19:24.13 | ahycka | i have to go |
19:24.16 | ahycka | cya tomorrow! |
19:24.22 | Joerg-Neo900 | cya! :-) |
19:24.24 | ceene | we doboth have to go |
19:24.35 | ceene | company dinner |
19:24.48 | Joerg-Neo900 | oooh that stuff |
19:24.52 | ceene | if only the boss stayed at home... but then we'd have to pay for our own meal, so at least we've got that :D |
19:25.00 | Joerg-Neo900 | hehehe |
19:25.09 | ceene | well, cya tomorrow! |
19:25.13 | Joerg-Neo900 | cya! |
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19:40.33 | wpwrak | grmbl, ahycka isn't "always on" |
19:41.07 | wpwrak | ceene: i fixed two things, so ahycka will want to merge with "master" |
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