irclog2html for #openzaurus on 20031028

00:05.26*** join/#openzaurus bisho (~bisho@136.Red-213-97-191.pooles.rima-tde.net)
00:51.24Subwayhmmmm..... anyone know of packages i can install on the sharp 3.10 rom to compile things on the Z?
00:53.11kergothofftopic. #zaurus.
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01:58.03rombohave there been any updates to oz since the last release that i could have access to?
02:28.30Shdwdrgnno official releases since 3.2
03:08.51romboany unoffical release?
03:09.18omin0us|workhey, whats the diff between xfree86 and x11?
03:10.08enkix11 is a specification, xfree86 an implementation of that spec
03:12.05omin0us|workyeah, i just googled it
03:12.07omin0us|workthanks
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06:12.44treke|homeibot: Fuck off.
06:12.45treke|home: have you tried http://www.tldp.org/ ?
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07:47.00ketahi all
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08:22.43ketawhat do you do with packages that come from debian unstable and which change their version frequently? I'm experiencing many version changes
08:23.01treke|home?
08:23.13treke|homeYou update them as they change
08:23.16treke|homeor find a new mirror
08:23.48ketabecause I was thinking of snapshot.debian.net
08:24.36ketathere one can find every debian diff, because it's a revision matter most the times
08:24.40treke|homepatches welcome
08:35.27lpotter_awaypatches schmatches
08:35.44treke|homestinking aussie
08:36.14treke|homeclose enough
08:36.30lpottertreke|home: near L.A?
08:36.48treke|homeyes
08:36.56lpottersmelling much smoke?
08:36.58treke|homereasonably
08:37.05treke|homewhole lot
08:37.36lpotterbetter make backups somewhere really remote :)
08:37.38treke|homethe fire was about 20 miles away
08:37.54treke|homeUnless someone lights a new fire up here, there is no danger for me :)
08:38.05treke|homeIt was about a mile from my parents though :)
08:38.57lpotterhmm
08:50.04lpotterit's just beginning fire season here
08:50.34treke|homeabout the end out here. We usually start getting some rain next month
08:51.42treke|homeweather is really annoying here
08:52.00treke|homeIt's dry as a bone 11 months out of the year, and it pours for 1 month :)
08:55.19lpotterya, well. you have surf girls
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09:17.58ketafor your knowledge, this debian snapshot seems to give right versions for debian sources needed by atm buildroot export DEBIAN_MIRROR=http://snapshot.debian.net/archive/2003/10/18/debian/pool
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09:49.08mousehi2all
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09:49.49mousedoes have SA1100 FPU?
09:50.12lpotterdont think so
09:50.45mouseok, thx
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09:53.53Twiunmouse: no, definately not. All floating point ops are emulated in the kernel
09:54.04Twiunmouse: so used int math or fixed-point math
09:54.07Twiuns.used/use/
09:54.40mouseTwiun: ok, thanks.
09:56.38jakuhi, how can i export the calendar of opie in csv?
09:57.10Twiunhow does opie currently store its calendar?
09:58.16jakuin csv? do you know where is the file?
10:00.24treke|homethe calender is in xml
10:00.28Twiunjaku: it wasn't a rhetorical question - I was curious to know what the current calendar save file format is.
10:00.34Twiuntreke|home: thanks
10:00.46Twiunit should be simple to convert from xml to csv
10:01.02treke|homewell, the theory is that it's xml, I don't know if it's actually well formed, and I know it is not at all documented
10:04.10jakuTwiun: tks, yes it is simple to do.. for me is perfect also xml... but do you know the folder??
10:07.07Twiunjaku: not offhand, but it should be simple to find
10:07.36Twiunjaku: drop into a console and use "find / -name '*.xml'"
10:09.00jakuTwiun: tks
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10:16.27*** mode/#openzaurus [+b *!*m0f73@*.c002.t7.mrt.starband.net] by zelazny.freenode.net
10:27.55*** join/#openzaurus MaRk-UsE (mark-use@pD9E9A7A0.dip.t-dialin.net)
10:27.59MaRk-UsEhi all
10:28.07MaRk-UsEis this the best channel 2 discuss about Z-roms?
10:28.34MaRk-UsEI want to flash the OZ-rom to my Zaurus 5500
10:28.46Twiunit's the best channel to discuss the OpenZaurus ROM - other roms may get mentioned I suppose
10:29.02MaRk-UsEBut there a a few things I heared
10:29.23MaRk-UsEI had it installes a few weeks ago
10:29.45Twiunlet us dispell some myths, no, using OZ does not increase your sex drive
10:29.49MaRk-UsEit needs a lot on power and had a load-avg over 2 the hole time
10:30.03MaRk-UsEhrhr
10:30.55MaRk-UsEcould any1 explane me that please
10:31.41Twiunafaik that's caused by the buggy Sharp patches to the 2.4.6 kernel
10:32.03TwiunOZ doesn't use the later kernels yet (more development needed)
10:34.13MaRk-UsEcould it be that OZ needs more power?
10:34.39Twiunof course not
10:35.00Twiunthis kind of stuff is usually due to bad drivers - not putting devices to sleep when not in use
10:35.14Twiunit's still the same hardware underneath afterall
10:36.51MaRk-UsEk, what rom should I chose? 64-0, 32-32,52-12???
10:37.25Twiunthat purely depends on what kind of use you intend to put your Z to - just like the page says
10:37.46MaRk-UsEI realized that there is a problem creating links into rootfs when installing software
10:37.59Twiunwhat problem?
10:38.02MaRk-UsEwhat page`?
10:38.16Twiunthe openzaurus.org download page
10:38.38MaRk-UsEif u have installed a todo app and wanna install a other todo app, links canÄt be created
10:38.52MaRk-UsEwhat is the official?
10:39.04Twiunwell that makes sense - why would you install two identical apps?
10:39.37MaRk-UsEhrhr, the prob is also with 2 apps include the same files
10:40.33Twiunwell that's a problem for whoever made the packages - have a go at them ;)
10:40.55MaRk-UsEthats why i use FreeBSD :-)
10:41.14MaRk-UsEk other question: qpe == qtopia?
10:41.26MaRk-UsEwhat meaning has that prefix on packages
10:42.36Twiunqpe is a holdover from the old name for qtopia - it used to be called Qt Palmtop Environment
10:42.46Twiunthen Trolltech renamed it
10:42.51Twiunbut kept the filenames
10:43.52MaRk-UsEdamn, now I understand my problems :-)
10:44.42MaRk-UsEk, what software restrictions are intelligent?
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10:48.41MaRk-UsEwould u let fingers away from some software?
10:51.53TwiunMaRk-UsE: sorry, I completely failed to understand that last statement
10:52.04Twiuns/statement/question/
10:52.33MaRk-UsEsorry, then i completly failed saying what I want ;-)
10:52.45MaRk-UsEWhat software would U never install?
10:53.22Twiunme? never thought about it... I tend to only keep software I find useful
10:54.02MaRk-UsEOnce I installed libc++6.1-2.....ipk and then I was ready to reflash my Z
10:58.38Twiunyou said software - I took that to mean applications
10:58.59TwiunI avoid installing any kind of system-level libraries which have a chance of breaking my system
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11:02.10MaRk-UsEok
11:02.43BeTa-glopyop
11:02.46MaRk-UsEhow fast is that rom-mem? SD can 10MB/s
11:02.54MaRk-UsEis it much faster?
11:03.24TwiunSD on the Zaurus doesn't use the full capabilities of the SD card only uses 1/4 of the speed
11:03.32Twiunso SD is very slow
11:03.50Twiunand that's nothing to do with OZ in particular, it's a hardware limitation
11:04.02MaRk-UsE--> installing apps to SD will cause long startup-times?
11:04.09Twiunindeed
11:04.21MaRk-UsEsry, don't understand this
11:04.36MaRk-UsEdon't know that word
11:06.21Twiunyes
11:13.01MaRk-UsEdo U know how fast the rom-memory is ?
11:13.21MaRk-UsEand why does OZ only use a 1/4 of the speed?
11:13.38MaRk-UsEsry s/OD/SD/
11:13.44MaRk-UsEsry s/OZ/SD/ *arg*
11:14.05TwiunAsk Sharp why they made that decision - I have absolutely no idea
11:16.15lpotterprobably for battery performnce
11:17.31MaRk-UsE2 Everyone: Any1 knows the rom-memory-speed???????
11:32.01TwiunMaRk-UsE: I believe someone did some benchmarks, search on the zaurus.com/dev/board postings
11:32.11Twiunit's not something we'd remember offhand
11:45.47MaRk-UsEIs there a solution 2 put software on SD and root, without getting trouble
11:47.02MaRk-UsEI don't  realy wanna do this, but I need ram and I don't wanna install all on the fucking slow SD card
11:47.58MaRk-UsEhate this looooong startup times - I HATE THEM SO MUCH oO(u know the simpsons-episode, angry-homer? *hrhr*)
12:04.00MaRk-UsEhmmm, now I'm scared. I made own throughput-benchmarks using dd
12:04.29MaRk-UsEresults( writing 50X1k blocks):
12:06.33MaRk-UsETime in Min: RAM: 3:55 , SD: 2:30, CF: 0:14
12:06.51MaRk-UsEresults(writing 2x50k blocks):
12:07.37MaRk-UsETime in Min: RAM: 0:15, SD: 0:03, CF: 0:01
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12:07.58MaRk-UsE--> I thought SD-card is much slower then RAM?
12:08.42MaRk-UsESometing need to be told: Z5500 with just sharp-rom and konsole installed
12:09.16MaRk-UsEstupid testing phase
12:15.31MaRk-UsEwhy is it so quiet here? what time do u have?
12:16.08MaRk-UsEWhat time you're awake?
12:17.48TwiunI happen to be at work at the moment
12:17.56Twiunso I'm doing what I'm paid to do ;)
12:30.31MaRk-UsEyea, just put a posting to the internet, that would realy be nice
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13:53.19jeroen_I've problems compiling the buildroot for my c700, managed to get it working with gcc-2.95 but now it fails with 3.3, can someone help me out ?
13:53.51jeroen_Maybe a better question, is it usefull to switch to 3.3 ?
13:55.34Twiunswitching to 3.3 is only worthwhile if you don't mind losing binary compatibility with all the apps out there
13:55.42Twiunall of which are compiled with 2.95.3
13:55.59jeroen_could't care less... what's the gain ? speed ?
13:56.12Twiunspeed and memory footprint iirc
13:56.58jeroen_ok, let's try it, the problem I get, when building opie is :
13:57.00jeroen_undefined versioned symbol name std::time_put_w@@GLIBCPP_3.2
13:57.14jeroen_seems the wrong glibc is build ?
13:57.39Twiundid you clean out your build completely when you switch compilers?
13:57.46Twiuns/switch/switched/
13:58.04jeroen_I did a make mrproper, should I clean my ccache ?
13:58.32Twiundon't think ccache is susceptible to this
13:58.47Twiuntried selecting a different glib version in make menuconfig?
13:58.49jeroen_but a 'make mrproper' should be enough, right ?
13:59.19Twiunit should
13:59.40Twiunalthough.... make mrproper won't wipe the output dirs if I recall
13:59.49Twiunjust the build dirs
14:00.33jeroen_uh, which makable is that ?
14:01.55Twiunit's the stuff in the output dir, things like output/rootfs and output/image
14:03.12jeroen_I'll try to wipe that
14:03.16jeroen_thanks
14:03.56Twiunnp
14:04.13TwiunI'm a bit rusty with the buildroot, haven't had the occasion to use it in a while
14:05.17jeroen_took me quite a while to compile it the first time (gcc-2.95), lots of missing/dead src URL's
14:05.48Twiunyeah, unfortunately that's sometimes due to debian moving things around
14:06.24jeroen_lucky there are a few sites still not updated..
14:07.06Twiunwhen that happens feel free to let us know, either here on irc or on the mailing list
14:07.52jeroen_I'll do that, maybe I'll send a log when I succeed
14:08.16jeroen_hmm, wiping the output dir completely isn't a good idea
14:08.35TwiunI did say rootfs and image ;)
14:08.58jeroen_that's right, I was feeling good ...
14:09.08jeroen_luckly I moved it ...
14:09.27jeroen_so, only clean rootfs and image ?
14:09.46Twiunyeah
14:09.58Twiuntry make image_clean
14:11.38Twiunhave a look at the doc/BUILD file
14:11.43TwiunI think there are more make targets
14:12.22jeroen_there are, investigting it now, the comments are a bit unclear to me
14:12.39Twiunpatches welcome ;)
14:12.52Twiunseriously though... we can chat about them and I'll update the comments
14:12.53jeroen_it's running again, I'm a bit sceptic about ccache, can I trust it ?
14:13.14jeroen_I will
14:14.05Twiunccache should be trustworthy
14:16.18jeroen_so, just curious, what's the status of oe ?
14:16.50Twiungetting there ;)
14:17.00Twiunstill lots of packages to migrate though
14:17.37jeroen_before it's as complete as Gentoo ? ;-)
14:18.01Twiunno, before we can start using it to build images ;)
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14:19.04jeroen_I'll check it out once and a while
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15:10.01MaRk-UsE__hmmm, how can i benchmark IO? writing was done with dd, but what 4 reading?
15:10.15MaRk-UsE__any solutions?
15:10.21treke|home?
15:10.28treke|homeYou know dd can read, right?
15:10.58MaRk-UsE__yea, but where should the output go
15:11.21MaRk-UsE__with /dev/null my benchmark returns times <1sek
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15:11.46treke|homeMaRk-UsE__: and? :p
15:12.18MaRk-UsE__what and?
15:12.41treke|homeYou do realize that if you write to anywhere else, you'll be timing the time it takes to write and not read
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15:12.55MaRk-UsE__I know
15:13.21MaRk-UsE__but 20 sek for writing and <1 for reading can't be right
15:14.14treke|homeUnless for some really broken reason dd is optimizing the read out, that's how long it took to read
15:14.23treke|homeMight be caching that you are running into
15:15.59MaRk-UsE__sry, I don't get it
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15:17.28treke|homeMaRk-UsE__: If whatever you were reading was cached in ram it will take less time to read than if it has to be read off the media or file system
15:18.04treke|homeThat less than 1 second time is the time reported for the read, and short of horrible brokenness is somewhat accurate
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15:18.19MaRk-UsE__k
15:18.40MaRk-UsE__so I can say, reading is always faster then writing?
15:19.06treke|homealways is a strong word :)
15:19.27MaRk-UsE__mostly :-)
15:19.48treke|homeAs a general rule, that's safe to say.
15:20.07MaRk-UsE__hrhr, k u beat me :-)
15:21.50MaRk-UsE__I'm still not sure if it would be better if I choose the 64-0 image and put /opt /root /home on SD
15:22.09MaRk-UsE__I hate this damn link-creation
15:22.34MaRk-UsE__thats not a good solution
15:23.23treke|homeIfor performance?
15:23.30treke|homeRAM will be faster than SD
15:28.55treke|homethats another one of those safe general rules, if sd access is faster than memory access, You've got problems :)
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15:37.32MaRk-UsE__I think the chance to get errors while installing software is much higher when u have 2 places 4 software to be
15:37.49MaRk-UsE__thats what I ment with "damn link creation"
15:38.38MaRk-UsE__so I would be saver to delete /opt /home /root and link the directorys onto /mnt/card/somewhere
15:39.07MaRk-UsE__create links 4 each file is a bit stupid I think
15:39.50MaRk-UsE__but SD-card is has about the half speed of the ram( writing)
15:41.06MaRk-UsE__reading times were the same while doing benchmark, but practicly it's sure slower then ram
15:41.24MaRk-UsE__hey MaRk-UsE__: what do u think about *hrhr*
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16:02.52ketaanyone knows how to fix libxine complaining that arm-linux is not supported?
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20:17.01xconducthi has anyone installed familiar on Z?
20:17.13yeiazelxconduct: you're better off with openzaurus
20:17.35kergothfamiliar is a hell of a lot like oz anyway, you'd gain nothing.
20:17.59xconductsure?
20:19.04pb_yeah, kergoth is right.  most familiar packages will work on oz anyway, and vice versa.
20:19.35xconductso its nothing special...
20:19.56kergothwhat exactly makes a distribution special?
20:20.01kergotha distro is a distro
20:20.04pb_xconduct: no, it's just a pile of bits.
20:21.04xconductunique features.....bleeding edge....stability
20:21.33kergothcompared to one another, no.
20:21.43kergothand bleeding edge and stability are often mutually exclusive, at least to some degree
20:22.51xconductkergoth : are you responsible for OZ development?
20:24.14lpotter_yes, he's the culprit
20:24.23lpotter_its all his fault
20:24.51xconducthow many developers here help out?
20:27.01lpotter_depends
20:27.26pb_yeah.  lpotter_ hinders, if that counts.
20:27.39lpotter_hehee
20:27.46xconducthow will the new version of OZ compare to the tkc rom ver 2?
20:27.58lpotter_it will be all original
20:28.05xconducthehe
20:28.18lpotter_instead of a hacked somebody-elese rom
20:28.36lpotter_and it will contain opie
20:29.13xconductis there a release date?
20:29.24yeiazelyes : september 2003
20:29.26yeiazel:p
20:29.51xconductok....let me travel back and see what i missed :)
20:29.59yeiazelnothing
20:30.01yeiazelit's not out
20:30.05lpotter_Q42003, or Q1 2004
20:30.15xconductcool
20:30.21lpotter_maybe
20:30.23yeiazelyou can still use OZ3.2
20:30.29xconductdo you need more developers?
20:30.31yeiazelit's as lpotter_ described
20:30.35lpotter_sure
20:30.42yeiazelall original and containing opie
20:30.45lpotter_opie always needs more devs,
20:30.58xconducti would love to get involved
20:31.17lpotter_development?
20:31.21xconductyes
20:32.05Reddogi'd love to help too.. but i wouldn't be much help..
20:32.17lpotter_grab the cvs source, join the opie-devel mailing list, pick an app hopefully one thats unmaintained, or under maintained), send patches
20:32.26Reddogi'll just stick to dealing with the hardware end of things
20:32.37lpotter_and soon you can have write access to commit yourself
20:33.38lpotter_it does
20:33.46gawelheh
20:33.46lpotter_or will
20:34.18kergothhey hardwire
20:34.22xconductis everything developed under linux and c++
20:34.27hardwirehey kergoth
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20:34.35kergothopie and qt are c++.  the base system, it varies
20:35.05xconductso what dev environment is needed?
20:35.08gawelkergoth: so, err, i have a stupid question. how does one crank out (compile) a toolchain under oe buildroot? (is there a readme besides the python files)
20:35.29kergothoe is oe, buildroot is buildroot.  new one isnt called buildroot, old is
20:35.35lpotter_you need qt2.3.2, qte2.3.7, opie, and emacs
20:35.40kergothuse correct terminology, otherwise it gets confusing
20:35.49gawelok.
20:35.51kergoththe new one wont build a glibc chain atm.  it can build a uclibc chain
20:35.54lpotter_although _some_ people use vim
20:36.30kergothto build a uclibc chain, use oebuild on binutils-cross, then uclibc-initial, then gcc-cross-initial, then uclibc, then gcc-cross
20:36.34kergothiirc
20:36.53kergoth(note: when oemake is happy again, itll just be a matter of doing oebuild virtual/arm-linux-gcc virtual/arm-linux-g++;
20:36.57kergoth)
20:36.57kergoths/oebuild/oemake/
20:37.30lpotter_you shold make a gui, so I can be lazy and push a button to build stuff
20:37.39lpotter_typing is for monkeys
20:38.02lpotter_:)
20:38.06xconductis there a manual to get beginner devs started?
20:38.21lpotter_awaycheck the opie website wiki
20:38.49lpotter_awaydev for opie is the easiest way to help
20:39.14lpotter_awaydev for oe/buildroot you have to go through the gauntlet
20:40.49gawelkergoth: are you planning to make glibc chain buildable under oe?
20:42.06kergothgawel: yes
20:42.19kergothjust fairly low priority atm since i can still use buildroot to build em
20:42.23kergothi'll fix it within a week or so
20:42.53kergothtop priority right now is adding OEPKGS to oemake, and fixing oemake multiple provides handling
20:48.33gawelkergoth: so  there are 289 packages under buildroot and 119 under oe. do you have a list of packages you are working on?
20:49.03kergothls nonworking/
20:49.07kergoththats my current staging area
20:52.27gawelso when do you commit packages to oemake? when they compile cleanly under oe and start on yer Z?
20:53.01gawel(sorry for all the questions. i'm hoping to be able to help out with porting packages)
20:53.21kergothoemake is a tool.
20:53.27kergothoe is a set of tools
20:53.39kergothi commit packages into a metadata repository that people can run the tools against
20:53.58kergothI move them out of nonworking when they compile, stage, install, and package into tarballs successfully.
20:54.36gawelok
20:54.55kergothi've tested said tarballs on a few devices
20:55.03kergothdevelopment boards and stuff, in addition to my c750
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20:56.33gawelthat was going to be my next question. 8-) so, in said devices, did you include 5600? (that's what i have and can work with)
20:57.10kergothno, but they'll work fine there.
20:57.22kergoth99% of the packages dont change between devices.
21:03.16gawelkergoth: thanks. i guess i need to do more tinkering and build me a rom under oe to test packages.
21:03.57kergothgawel: well, you dont need a rom to test package functionality
21:04.01kergothbuild some ipks, install them
21:04.05kergothor tarballs, extract them
21:04.26gaweleven if i have stock sharp rom?
21:04.42kergoththat wont work due to library version dependency
21:04.51kergothanything you biuld against glibc 2.3.x wont work on a 2.2.x box
21:06.30gawelso, i need to install rom from http://www.openzaurus.org/unofficial/experimental/poodle/2.0/ right?
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23:48.10CHakhi there, is there a dosemu port for the z?

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