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| 05:26.06 | wpwrak | xiangfu: heya ! question: you still have those anelok boards you've made, right ? |
| 05:33.37 | xiangfu | Yes |
| 05:33.58 | xiangfu | anelok is on my TODO list and Desk. |
| 05:34.00 | xiangfu | :) |
| 05:37.53 | wpwrak | hehe, great ! :) i was thinking that the ccc-camp may be a place with some potential for attracting developers, and some may have use for one of these board |
| 05:40.51 | wpwrak | if you could send the boards you don't need for yourself to someone who can bring them to the camp, i could then give boards to any worthy developers i may meet there |
| 05:41.47 | wpwrak | and if any are left, i could send them to dave ball in the UK who could then take care of further shipments |
| 05:42.44 | wpwrak | does that sounds good ? if yes, then i'll ask around if i can find someone in europe who goes to the camp and who would be willing to receive them |
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| 06:59.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | looks around, then hides ;-P |
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| 07:42.45 | xiangfu | wpwrak: sounds good. |
| 07:43.25 | xiangfu | wpwrak: Yes. |
| 07:46.17 | xiangfu | I have three right now |
| 07:47.02 | wpwrak | three that you can send or three in total, including the ones you use yourself ? |
| 07:47.22 | xiangfu | I have four in total. |
| 07:47.26 | xiangfu | three I can send out. |
| 07:48.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | wpwrak: could we try giving one a Galden sauna on camp? ;-) |
| 07:48.20 | wpwrak | DocScrutinizer05: still hiding ? you would make an ideal candidate :) 1) you already received (a) shipment(s) from xiangfu, 2) you're coming to the camp, and 3) it's rather unlikely that we won't run into each other there :) |
| 07:48.56 | wpwrak | (galden) sounds destructive |
| 07:48.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | hard to argue :-) |
| 07:49.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | nah, *constructive* literally, for a new one |
| 07:49.52 | wpwrak | DocScrutinizer05: so is it okay if xiangfu sends them to you ? |
| 07:49.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure |
| 07:50.05 | wpwrak | great, thanks ! |
| 07:50.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | though I definitely would prefer them getting sent by normal letter rather than that customs stuff |
| 07:50.47 | wpwrak | xiangfu: we have our importer ;-) i guess the shipping is fairly quick, isn't it ? |
| 07:51.07 | xiangfu | I can sent it right now. :) |
| 07:51.09 | xiangfu | by DHL. |
| 07:51.34 | wpwrak | DocScrutinizer05: normal letters go through customs, too. now that everyone knows your EORI, things may actually be smoother now |
| 07:51.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, not much |
| 07:52.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | atually this one will be a nightmare since I can't prove any value, no matter how |
| 07:52.22 | wpwrak | can't they do the formalities directly now ? |
| 07:53.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | when I ordered stuff like bare N900 PCB they arrived in a fairly normal letter, without any customs involved |
| 07:53.40 | wpwrak | "prototype" :) they must have some way to handle self-made things. e.g., what if your grandmother sends you self-knitted socks ? |
| 07:54.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | alas such letters take up to two months |
| 07:54.45 | wpwrak | well, maybe taping them on a PCB and then using a padded envelope may work. they's a bit fragile with OLED and FPC hanging off the PCB |
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| 07:56.19 | wpwrak | meh. s/they's/they're/ |
| 07:56.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | I think up to 25 Eur are free of charge re customs |
| 07:57.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | alas I never checked details of such parcels I found in my letterbox or my neighbors received for me |
| 07:58.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | one thing's for sure: add my EORY and it will be DHL handling it the commercial way with customs and charging me the nominal fee |
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| 08:02.31 | wpwrak | EUR 22: http://www.zoll.de/DE/Fachthemen/Zoelle/Zollbefreiungen/Aussertarifliche-Zollbefreiung/Sendungen-mit-geringem-Wert/sendungen-mit-geringem-wert_node.html |
| 08:02.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | probably sending them the most usual way and filing papers for a 3 pcs foobar a 4.99EUR = 14.97 total will work best |
| 08:05.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | >>Entscheidend ist, welcher Betrag tatsächlich gezahlt wurde, um die Ware zu erhalten. << |
| 08:05.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's pretty hard to show an invoice / payment of zilch EUR |
| 08:07.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | small packages with correctly filed papers stating a value of 5, 10 or 15 EUR usually work best |
| 08:08.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | ideally "payment after shipping" |
| 08:09.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | 3*1.98 |
| 08:10.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | and pack them in a way so customs may open them ans see them in a bag without messing with, and breaking them |
| 08:12.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | any standard goods type declaration will do, the type used for dunno electronic components or whatever |
| 08:13.42 | wpwrak | 3*1.98 may be a bit on the low side for a circuit with an display clearly hanging off it |
| 08:14.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | they have no damn clue |
| 08:15.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | make it 5.89 then |
| 08:18.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://www.aliexpress.com/item/RF-wireless-receiver-module-transmitter-module-board-for-arduino-super-regeneration-315-433MHZ-DC5V-ASK-OOK/1620400987.html |
| 08:20.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | of course the customs never will believe somebody sends stuff for a total cost of 16 bucks, when the DHL shipping alone is known to cost 20 |
| 08:21.07 | whitequark | shipping cost is not included in customs value |
| 08:21.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | it is |
| 08:22.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | and it's highly unlikely that you buy a 15 EUR value of goods shipped in a parcel that costs 25 |
| 08:22.16 | whitequark | ummm, no it's not |
| 08:22.18 | wpwrak | seems that it depends in this case: if you're billed for the shipping, shipping value is included. else, not |
| 08:22.26 | whitequark | e.g. fedex: http://www.canadacustomer.fedex.com/ca_english/customsguide/declaredvalue.html |
| 08:22.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | who cares about canada? |
| 08:23.18 | wpwrak | (unlikely) e.g., letters are often sent by courier. the "commercial value" of a few sheets of paper tends to be pretty low ;-) |
| 08:23.28 | whitequark | oh |
| 08:23.28 | whitequark | https://smallbusiness.fedex.com/international/country-snapshots/germany.html |
| 08:23.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | MEH |
| 08:23.34 | whitequark | so in germany, it is included |
| 08:23.41 | whitequark | https://smallbusiness.fedex.com/international/country-snapshots/germany.html |
| 08:23.44 | whitequark | er |
| 08:23.45 | whitequark | The value to declare for customs purposes is the price paid or payable for the goods, including any selling commissions, assists, royalties, packing and proceeds. It does not include freight and insurance charges. |
| 08:24.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | I know |
| 08:24.17 | whitequark | I thought it would be uniform. silly, I guess |
| 08:24.37 | whitequark | either way, I ship shit that costs less than delivery cost all the time |
| 08:24.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | and the customs get pissed when you tell them you paid 15 bucks for the parcel and they know for good that fedex or DHL charged sender a 20 for the shipping |
| 08:24.53 | whitequark | usually from auctions |
| 08:25.13 | whitequark | don't really have a choice there unless i want seller to combine |
| 08:25.30 | whitequark | and have something i want it to be combined with |
| 08:25.34 | whitequark | which is not usually the case |
| 08:25.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | whitequark: that's irrelevant |
| 08:26.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | even wehn the goods are 0.68 the seller will not charge me 0.68 but 0.68 plus shipping |
| 08:26.29 | whitequark | ohh right |
| 08:26.32 | whitequark | since it's included. |
| 08:26.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | and for customs that's 20.68 then |
| 08:26.42 | whitequark | yeah you're right |
| 08:27.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | and when I try to tell them I paid less than seller paid for parcel, they will tell me to go fuck myself |
| 08:28.40 | wpwrak | but these are gifts from a friend. not stuff bought from a .cn shop. do your friends normally charge you for shipping when they send you gifts ? :) |
| 08:28.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's where stuff gets *really* nasty |
| 08:29.12 | wpwrak | it may be difficult to explain, yes :) |
| 08:29.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's difficult to *prove* |
| 08:29.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | and they see this sort of fraud 50000 times a day |
| 08:29.56 | xiangfu | :) |
| 08:30.58 | whitequark | our customs just don't give a fuck unless it's over $2k or so |
| 08:31.10 | whitequark | once it's over $2k though, you will be told to get fucked in so many ways |
| 08:31.40 | whitequark | as I have recently discovered, an US org cannot express ship to a RU citizen in any circumstances whatsoever |
| 08:31.55 | whitequark | the law does not define when that is permitted. |
| 08:32.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | here it's fine as long as it's plausible and no pills or drugs, and <22EUR |
| 08:32.10 | whitequark | and that's not even $2k, a $100 devboard |
| 08:32.25 | whitequark | interestingly, the exact same thing sent using *registerd* post doesn't raise a brow |
| 08:34.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | wpwrak: I think we're in a pinch with either DHL and fast delivery but delay at customs, or "normal surface deliver mail" (aka letter) which will not even see customs but will take 4 to 12 weeks |
| 08:34.51 | wpwrak | air mail ? |
| 08:36.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, "china post ordinary small packet plus" Estimated delivery 15-34days |
| 08:36.42 | whitequark | that's pretty much a lottery |
| 08:36.47 | whitequark | sometimes arrives in 10, sometimes in 60 |
| 08:36.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep |
| 08:36.55 | wpwrak | doesn't the EUR 22 rule apply to DHL, too ? |
| 08:37.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep |
| 08:37.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | incl shipping |
| 08:37.44 | wpwrak | the page i found suggests that this depends on whether the pro forma invoice includes shipping or not |
| 08:38.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | no idea how much they charge for a parcel like that. Probably enough so they per default pipe everything through customs |
| 08:38.43 | wpwrak | for courier, shipping ought to be > EUR 22 |
| 08:38.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | wpwrak: I already elaborated in epic length that customs are not idiots |
| 08:39.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | when they see a DHL parcel they know what's the shipping cost. And they generally won't accept total value of parcel being lower than that |
| 08:39.54 | wpwrak | so if www.zoll.de says that it depends on the invoice, you're saying they're lying ? |
| 08:40.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes |
| 08:40.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | meh |
| 08:40.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm fed up |
| 08:41.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | I say they tell me you are lying |
| 08:41.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | writing an invoice is cheap, and done for fraud purposes a 50000 times a day |
| 08:41.50 | wpwrak | me ? |
| 08:42.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, you, when you wrote the invoice |
| 08:42.05 | wpwrak | ah |
| 08:43.01 | wpwrak | well, in argentina they require a sworn declaration from the recipient. so they have a statement from someone they can hurt |
| 08:43.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | they might have no clue about electronics, but they know their business and trade shit |
| 08:43.47 | wpwrak | yes, but in this case, there's actually nobody trying to cheat |
| 08:44.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, and you think I visit a lawyer to get that paper? sorry, won't happen |
| 08:44.26 | wpwrak | naw, you'd make that declaration at customs |
| 08:45.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | no I won't. they want to see papers |
| 08:45.05 | wpwrak | well, at least here it works like this. you make it online, they calculate the import fees, you pay them, then hope for the best |
| 08:45.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | do waht you likwe. I tell you I won't try to bring a fake invoice to prove how much I paid |
| 08:45.52 | wpwrak | well, never mind. i'll see if i can find someone else. |
| 08:46.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | do you think somebody else can cheat customs? |
| 08:46.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | good luck |
| 08:46.43 | wpwrak | nobody is trying to cheat customs here ... |
| 08:47.28 | wpwrak | just the standard procedure with pro forma invoice (since it's not an actual sale) |
| 08:49.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | last parcel from xiangfu was fun to pick up at customs since I could show those guys a similar device offered on ebay, for a 60 bucks |
| 08:49.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | iirc |
| 08:50.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | or was that the single N900 some other guy sent to me |
| 08:50.55 | wpwrak | yes, that helps of course |
| 08:51.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, this was _the last resort_ |
| 08:51.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | since I couldn't show an order or a paypal/wiretransfer payment to prove the value |
| 08:53.32 | wpwrak | and what value did they suggest to use ? |
| 08:53.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | for the speakers they completely ignored the fake invoice |
| 08:54.00 | wpwrak | well, they can do that :) |
| 08:54.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | luckily I had a payment to show them, and a correspondence |
| 08:54.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | and it was hard enough to convince them to accept those "documents" |
| 08:56.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | just telling you when you write an invoice, don't forget to add realistic shipping cost, and decalre the goods accordingly so customs has no problem finding the drawer for that class of goods |
| 08:57.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | then when it's < 22 EUR we might be lucky |
| 08:58.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | maybe "prototypes for exhibition, advertising item free of charge" may actually fly, I dunno |
| 08:59.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | "shipping: paid by sender" |
| 09:01.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | and aiui there's even an option where sender pays all customs and taxes due |
| 09:01.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | this arrives flawlessly, at least when e.g. Nokia ships that stuff |
| 09:01.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | or Openmoko |
| 09:01.54 | wpwrak | just to be clear: this is what they look like: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/xiangfu/anelok/tmp/Anelok-front.jpg |
| 09:02.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's highly irrelevant |
| 09:02.10 | wpwrak | not much risk of confusing them with some standard mass market product |
| 09:03.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | there are no special taxes for mass market products |
| 09:04.38 | whitequark | can't you just send them as "samples"? these are sometimes exempt from duty |
| 09:05.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | "free samples" or "prototypes" or "for exhibition" or whatever |
| 09:05.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's only relevant what receiver actually paid |
| 09:06.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | and if I could prove that so they believe it |
| 09:09.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | I *think* when they are told you didn't pay since it's a (commercial) give-away, they can guess the value |
| 09:10.22 | wpwrak | careful with "samples": http://www.zoll.de/DE/Fachthemen/Zoelle/Zollbefreiungen/Aussertarifliche-Zollbefreiung/Pruefungs-und-Analysezwecke/pruefungs-und-analysezwecke_node.html |
| 09:14.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | >>Ausgeschlossen von der Befreiung sind Waren in den Fällen, in denen die vorgesehenen PrüfungsmaÃnahmen vordergründig zu Zwecken der Absatzförderung (z.B. Werbung) durchgeführt werden, z.B. um den Umsatz für ein bereits im Handel befindliches Erzeugnis durch deren Erprobung zu verbessern. Hier kommt evtl. eine Zollbefreiung nach den Bestimmungen für Warenmuster und Warenproben in Betracht.<< |
| 09:15.04 | wpwrak | but as long as you can avoid that trap, there is http://www.zoll.de/DE/Fachthemen/Zoelle/Zollbefreiungen/Aussertarifliche-Zollbefreiung/Absatzfoerderung/Warenmuster-und-proben/warenmuster-und-proben_node.html |
| 09:15.57 | wpwrak | but in any case, the simplest approach seems to be to declare them as gifts and send them to a private address: http://www.zoll.de/DE/Privatpersonen/Post-Internet/Sendungen-aus-einem-Nicht-EU-Staat/Zoll-und-Steuern/Geschenksendungen/geschenksendungen_node.html |
| 09:16.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's your regulation: http://www.zoll.de/DE/Fachthemen/Zoelle/Zollbefreiungen/Aussertarifliche-Zollbefreiung/Absatzfoerderung/Warenmuster-und-proben/warenmuster-und-proben_node.html |
| 09:16.14 | wpwrak | note "unterliegen keinen Zollförmlichkeiten" |
| 09:16.49 | wpwrak | all the rest is more complex. e.g., samples: "elektronischen oder schriftlichen Zollanmeldung" |
| 09:17.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, so what I said: *please* don't give my EORI! |
| 09:17.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | you regularly don't write EORI on a private gift |
| 09:17.55 | wpwrak | EORI would be the UG. yes, that would be bad then |
| 09:18.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | and probably you want to write the addr sticker by hand then |
| 09:19.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | and generally don't use "commercial" packaging |
| 09:24.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | both sender and receiver must be natural private persons |
| 09:26.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | a letter wouldn't hurt "Hi Joerg, those are the ANELOKs for Werner's welcome gift that I made for him" or sth like that |
| 09:27.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's a pretty easily proofable story |
| 09:28.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | I can even show off your flight ticket |
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