| 00:00.31 | a4akb | so why cant apache have tomcat capabilites and be a supernova in server technology |
| 00:00.39 | jasonb | Doesn't seem like Apache httpd, special config for that, mod_jk, special protocol, & Tomcat is a KISS way to do it either. |
| 00:02.03 | a4akb | kissing and joking? |
| 00:02.05 | jasonb | TomekN2: I don't know what your jk problem is, but I don't know if I've heard success from people using that on a Linux 2.2 kernel. I think I'd suspect that jk isn't quite flexibly written enough for that, but that's just a guess. |
| 00:03.18 | jasonb | Seriously, hooking Apache httpd up to Tomcat is not simple by any stretch of the imagination, and running Tomcat on port 80 is actually simpler even if it doesn't seem to be. But, of course that doesn't solve your problem of being chained to php. |
| 00:03.40 | TomekN2 | jasonb that's what I also think. I wrote to tomcat-user list my point of view (that I don't understand why connectors are sore complex and complicated) and... John Turner started argue with me :> |
| 00:04.43 | TomekN2 | a4akb KISS is Keep It Simple, Stupid |
| 00:04.47 | jasonb | Well, you're asking to hook up a native code web server to a pure Java servlet container. Mixing languages like that is complex in the first place, plus to actually do it you either have to add a network layer inbetween, or JNI calls (even more complex), or UNIX domain sockets (then you're not multiplatform enough), etc etc etc |
| 00:05.15 | jasonb | IMO, hooking Apache to Tomcat should be avoided whenever possible, and if it's not possible, then you should try to use mod_proxy instead. |
| 00:05.34 | jasonb | Anything else is going to drive you right into the woods. |
| 00:06.08 | TomekN2 | jasonb sure, but in the real world people don't use load balancing and other such stuff. they just link one apache to one tomcat on the same host (localhost). I would say mod_rewrite should do the job then. |
| 00:06.21 | TomekN2 | So why connectors anyway :?0 |
| 00:06.23 | TomekN2 | :) |
| 00:06.35 | *** join/#tomcat bun0 (~hitoj@ppp-66-123-206-40.dialup.snfc21.pacbell.net) |
| 00:07.29 | jasonb | mod_rewrite? Ugh. |
| 00:07.31 | TomekN2 | jasonb you're a bit right, mod_jk is not the soft I loved at first sight. |
| 00:07.49 | TomekN2 | jasonb what's wrong with mod_rewrite :) |
| 00:08.13 | TomekN2 | this is even simler solution than portfw or proxing |
| 00:08.21 | TomekN2 | s/simler/simpler |
| 00:08.27 | jasonb | It's actually not. |
| 00:08.32 | jasonb | Try it and you'll see what I mean. |
| 00:09.00 | TomekN2 | i have already learned mod_rewrite - I use it already for couple of years. |
| 00:09.17 | jasonb | Have you used it with Tomcat for a couple of years? |
| 00:09.23 | TomekN2 | i admit that's not simple, but if you understand it |
| 00:09.36 | TomekN2 | - it does the job |
| 00:09.49 | TomekN2 | jasonb no, i use tomcat for 7 days :) |
| 00:09.56 | jasonb | Okay then. :) |
| 00:10.02 | jasonb | You'll find out. |
| 00:10.44 | TomekN2 | for the time being i think i should make mod_jk work. |
| 00:11.21 | *** join/#tomcat akb_oOo (~akb@as16-13.qualitynet.net) |
| 00:11.22 | jasonb | Do some googling for those error strings and maybe you can find some hints. |
| 00:11.22 | TomekN2 | this seems to be the best way to serve java on tcp/80 at my machine for now.. |
| 00:11.37 | TomekN2 | i did, nothing particular |
| 00:11.38 | akb_oOo | hi |
| 00:11.48 | akb_oOo | what did i miss |
| 00:13.15 | akb_oOo | and who is using my akb nick in here? |
| 00:14.06 | akb_oOo | akb is ~akb@p50883AB5.dip.t-dialin.net * akb |
| 00:14.07 | akb_oOo | akb on #fluxbox #gentooforum #gentoo.de |
| 00:14.07 | akb_oOo | akb using irc.freenode.net http://freenode.net/ |
| 00:14.07 | akb_oOo | akb is an identified user |
| 00:14.07 | akb_oOo | akb has been idle 21mins 45secs, signed on Thu Mar 06 22:45:36 |
| 00:14.07 | akb_oOo | akb End of /WHOIS list. |
| 00:14.09 | akb_oOo | - |
| 00:14.36 | jasonb | --- [a4akb] (akb@as7-69.qualitynet.net) : akb |
| 00:14.43 | jasonb | --- [akb_oOo] (~akb@as16-13.qualitynet.net) : akb |
| 00:14.47 | akb_oOo | thats me alrigt |
| 00:15.05 | akb_oOo | get found u lost ghost.. |
| 00:15.38 | akb_oOo | can we identify our nicks here? |
| 00:16.07 | akb_oOo | register even? |
| 00:18.06 | anelson | hrmmm this access log doesn't seem so great |
| 00:18.24 | anelson | it is only showing errors of type 404 |
| 00:19.02 | akb_oOo | jasonb do you have any topics on which i can do some online reserch and contribute the docs to tomcaT? |
| 00:22.04 | Angus | well, I managed to get my mod_rewrite/mod_proxy woes to go away, at least for the moment. |
| 00:22.57 | Angus | Took a while thoguh. I was up all night doing it. |
| 00:25.11 | jasonb | Angus: What did you do to fix your problems? |
| 00:25.46 | Angus | Well, I had to rewrite a lot of my rewrite rules. And then I had to fix the order in which my apache modules were being loaded. |
| 00:26.08 | Angus | The big mod_rewrite task is still to come though. |
| 00:26.10 | jasonb | Angus: Painful using mod_rewrite, isn't it? |
| 00:26.22 | jasonb | (with Tomcat I mean) |
| 00:26.38 | Angus | jasonb: Well, there are definitely issues. :). |
| 00:26.44 | jasonb | TomekN2: See? |
| 00:26.56 | Angus | I think it's less painful than any other alternative for me at the moment. |
| 00:28.00 | TomekN2 | jasonb see? :) |
| 00:28.11 | TomekN2 | angus give me five :) |
| 00:28.23 | akb_oOo | high 5 TomekN2 |
| 00:28.51 | Angus | The next task for me is to figure out a virtual directory structure corresponding to all the different sets of GET parameters my pages can take, and then rewrite those directories as to include the parameters. I suspect I'll pull out some hair over that. |
| 00:29.11 | Angus | TomekN2: five :). |
| 00:29.23 | akb_oOo | k guys |
| 00:29.26 | akb_oOo | have a good time |
| 00:29.32 | akb_oOo | eat well and sleep well |
| 00:29.34 | TomekN2 | Angus why dont you just rewrite 8080 to 80 for some vhosts? |
| 00:29.35 | jasonb | akb_oOo: Going somewhere? |
| 00:29.50 | TomekN2 | i mean 80 to 8080 |
| 00:30.03 | akb_oOo | i was getting bored so thought would get some sleep jasonb, but now that you are here, i will stay |
| 00:30.03 | TomekN2 | i dont get the problem |
| 00:30.32 | Angus | TomekN2: because I need to be able to make a whole bunch of generated pages look as if they are static html. |
| 00:31.03 | akb_oOo | so jason u got any topic for me to r n d upon |
| 00:31.15 | Angus | TomekN2: Or rather be indidtinguishable from static html. |
| 00:31.16 | TomekN2 | angus continue. |
| 00:31.16 | jasonb | akb_oOo: Well, I'm thinking. |
| 00:31.33 | akb_oOo | think thunk thinking thought |
| 00:32.03 | TomekN2 | agnus is that not just forwarding request coming to tcp/80 into tcp/8080? |
| 00:32.20 | akb_oOo | i think i thunk the right thought but the thought that i was thinking was not actually what i thunk of so i thunk something more thinkable to think upon.. |
| 00:32.34 | Angus | TomekN2: So the pages can't have things like category.jsp?category=blah&start=40&order=monthlycost. |
| 00:33.26 | Angus | TomekN2: Instead I have to map a url like: categories/40/monthlycost/blah.html |
| 00:33.27 | TomekN2 | Angus just use cocoon. |
| 00:33.41 | jasonb | akb_oOo: I'm not sure.. many of the items that are in need of better documentation really require some deep knowledge of Tomcat's code, I think. You might want to ask that same question on the tomcat-dev list.. |
| 00:33.50 | Angus | TomekN2: Cocoon generates static html, tright? |
| 00:33.53 | TomekN2 | you can have your jsp pages there and match uri's |
| 00:34.19 | TomekN2 | match="categories/*/*/*.html" |
| 00:34.27 | TomekN2 | generate category.jsp |
| 00:34.42 | TomekN2 | param name="start" value="{1}" |
| 00:34.47 | TomekN2 | etc.. that's it. |
| 00:34.52 | Angus | TomekN2: hmm. I don't know Cocoon. |
| 00:35.07 | Angus | Can I use it with a pre-existing set of jsp pages? |
| 00:35.13 | TomekN2 | sure. |
| 00:35.22 | Angus | Hmm. I'll have to look into that. |
| 00:35.31 | TomekN2 | that's really simple. |
| 00:35.49 | Angus | TomekN2: can cocoon cache results? |
| 00:35.55 | TomekN2 | that's the best way i know to have server pages look like static html |
| 00:36.03 | TomekN2 | Angus yes. |
| 00:36.37 | Angus | TomekN2: I'll look into it. Thanks. I wonder how long it would take me to get up to speed with it. |
| 00:36.46 | TomekN2 | 20 minutes. |
| 00:36.50 | TomekN2 | :) |
| 00:36.58 | *** join/#tomcat LordXtra (Lord@pD95365D9.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 00:37.30 | Angus | TomekN2: K. One reason I'm doing this is so that I can switch the site out for _actual_ static html if I need to. |
| 00:37.49 | Angus | I was told to build a site and not worry about load- that it would be light. |
| 00:38.18 | Angus | Then after building the app I was told that it would have to support several million page views a day., |
| 00:38.27 | TomekN2 | hehe |
| 00:38.29 | Angus | At some point. |
| 00:38.57 | akb_oOo | hmm |
| 00:39.03 | TomekN2 | Java should bare it better then php... |
| 00:39.05 | TomekN2 | :) |
| 00:39.19 | Angus | My boss has worked a deal (which I'm not at liberty to discuss, unfortunately) that could lead to _ridiculous_ amounts of traffic. |
| 00:39.50 | Angus | TomekN2: Sure. And I left hooks in for caching database queries. |
| 00:40.36 | Angus | TomekN2: But I'm still pretty sure that the level of traffic we could potentially face would require a _lot_ of machines if the pages were regenerated on each request. |
| 00:41.18 | TomekN2 | so what you have now? |
| 00:41.26 | TomekN2 | one tomcat 4.1 machine? |
| 00:41.29 | Angus | So I wqould really like to leave myself the option of either generating static html, or using something like squid. |
| 00:41.42 | Angus | TomekN2: Yeah, at the moment one machine. |
| 00:42.04 | Angus | TomekN2: We can add a few to that, if we have to. |
| 00:42.41 | TomekN2 | what cpu, ram and how many concurent http requests? |
| 00:42.44 | Angus | TomekN2: But not twenty. At least not at this point. |
| 00:43.15 | Angus | TomekN2: P4 1.4Ghz, as to the concurrent, I'm not sure yet. |
| 00:43.40 | Angus | But possibly enough to put us in the top couple hundred most visited sites, eventually. |
| 00:44.06 | Angus | (Of course by that point, we will have to have more than a few more machines) |
| 00:44.21 | Angus | But I'd like to use the minimum number. |
| 00:44.28 | Angus | Possible. |
| 00:44.35 | TomekN2 | what is the memory usage of jvm? |
| 00:45.28 | Angus | Well, without many users, at this point about 50M. But we have a lot of data to add, so this will grow. |
| 00:45.33 | akb_oOo | jasonb u here? |
| 00:45.57 | TomekN2 | cocoon has cute caching machnizm |
| 00:46.01 | Angus | TomekN2: I haven't really had a chance to measure too much about the performance characteristics yet. |
| 00:46.03 | akb_oOo | hmm |
| 00:46.07 | bun0 | how do you guys simulate that 1000's of hits a second? |
| 00:46.28 | TomekN2 | and you are alse able to generate static html by hand |
| 00:46.32 | akb_oOo | i thought u would give me a topic, its ok maybe when u reach home? i will wakeup by then |
| 00:46.46 | Angus | But I know that at this point they are not good enough. |
| 00:46.49 | TomekN2 | (command line useing) |
| 00:46.56 | bun0 | yer cocoon better not generate pages per request or your not going to get close to those numbers you expect |
| 00:47.03 | TomekN2 | but there is one conditions you must concider |
| 00:47.19 | TomekN2 | you jsp must generate valid XML stream |
| 00:47.27 | TomekN2 | so it has to be XHTML, not HTML. |
| 00:47.36 | Angus | TomekN2: I haven't built that yet. But what I wqould like to do is have two sites: One completely dynamic with an administration interface, and a static mirror of it. |
| 00:47.51 | Angus | Then I can generate the html by making queries to the dynamic site. |
| 00:48.15 | Angus | And it lets the people updating the site through the interface see the changes live. |
| 00:48.29 | Angus | Set up a cron job to do the updates. |
| 00:48.59 | TomekN2 | so you have two options: try cocoon or try reverse squid. |
| 00:49.00 | Angus | Another alternative is to use a reverse caching proxy. |
| 00:49.25 | Angus | TomekN2: Right. But Squid doesn't cache GETs with parameters, does it? |
| 00:49.33 | TomekN2 | it does |
| 00:49.50 | Angus | TomekN2. Hmm. OK. I was mistaken then. |
| 00:50.14 | TomekN2 | just remove "?" from hierarchy_stoplist |
| 00:50.21 | TomekN2 | (squid.conf) |
| 00:51.16 | akb_oOo | think of a good interesting topic while am gone |
| 00:51.28 | akb_oOo | Goodnight and drive safely to home |
| 00:51.32 | akb_oOo | bye |
| 00:51.33 | jasonb | "Installing Tomcat on the Moon" |
| 00:51.39 | akb_oOo | Goodnight all |
| 00:51.41 | Angus | Ah, OK, thanks :). How much memory does squid use? (I know that's a hard question to answer in any definitve way, I just mean in general). |
| 00:51.41 | akb_oOo | cool |
| 00:51.46 | jasonb | akb_oOo: Good night. :) |
| 00:51.49 | Angus | Rough idea. |
| 00:52.05 | akb_oOo | Goodnight jasonb |
| 00:53.14 | TomekN2 | Angus that depends on configuration |
| 00:57.09 | Angus | OK. Cool. I think even if I use squid I will want to do rewriting on the urls, for a couple of reasons, but that sounds good. Maybe even squid->Cocoon. |
| 00:59.48 | Angus | bun0: about the generation, yeah, that's really what it comes down to. I need to use an existing Tomcat app to build a system that doesn |
| 00:59.54 | Angus | oops |
| 01:00.03 | Angus | rebui;ld pages per request. |
| 01:01.22 | bun0 | if you dont use xsp perhaps, then it wouldnt need to recompile it |
| 01:04.25 | Angus | bun0: I don't know cocoon very well, but I am thinking that my best bet is either reverse proxying or generating actual html pages and using a very lightweight web server to serve them. The set of possible requests is large, but not prohibitively so. Things are complicated a bit by the fact that there will be a few pages that do have to be geberated per request, but I think that they will account for <5% of our traffic, so we could dedicate one |
| 01:04.25 | Angus | machine to them. |
| 01:14.45 | jasonb | http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/29622.html |
| 01:15.30 | Angus | jasonb: Yeah, I saw a story about that. That's pretty funny. |
| 01:17.26 | *** join/#tomcat Spline (~dj_aia@symphonatic.isisnetworks.net) |
| 01:17.55 | Spline | hey |
| 01:20.06 | *** join/#tomcat Hellaenergy (~Hellaener@hellaweb.com) |
| 01:20.42 | Hellaenergy | ibot: tapestry is at http://jakarta.apache.org/proposals/tapestry/ |
| 01:20.43 | | Hellaenergy: okay |
| 01:21.07 | Spline | ibot: Hellaenergy |
| 01:21.08 | | Spline: I wish you would RTFM. |
| 01:21.20 | Hellaenergy | lol |
| 01:24.06 | Hellaenergy | anyone here running 4.1.21 yet? |
| 01:25.02 | Hellaenergy | ibot: lart Spline |
| 01:27.34 | Hellaenergy | what up jasonb? |
| 01:30.11 | Hellaenergy | Anyone here write their pages in XML? |
| 01:30.44 | jasonb | Not yet. |
| 01:32.36 | Spline | I do |
| 01:32.43 | Spline | use Cocoon to turn them into HTML |
| 01:45.18 | TomekN2 | me to |
| 01:46.13 | Spline | yea? |
| 01:46.26 | Spline | cool... have you figured out XMLForms yet? |
| 01:47.41 | TomekN2 | not yet |
| 01:47.53 | TomekN2 | i just use simple xsp's |
| 01:48.58 | Ishai | . |
| 01:51.26 | Hellaenergy | Cacoon, huh? |
| 01:51.42 | Hellaenergy | Tis it a piece of cake? |
| 01:52.09 | Hellaenergy | ibot: cacoon |
| 01:52.10 | | Hellaenergy: I don't know, could you explain it? |
| 01:53.39 | Hellaenergy | ibot: cocoon |
| 01:53.40 | | XML to HTML converter. URL: http://java.apache.org/ |
| 01:54.39 | Hellaenergy | ibot forget cocoon |
| 01:54.54 | Hellaenergy | ibot no cocoon |
| 01:54.55 | | Hellaenergy: I give up, what is it? |
| 01:55.10 | Hellaenergy | ibot: cocoon is at http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/ |
| 01:55.11 | | ...but cocoon is already something else... |
| 01:55.47 | Spline | ibot: help |
| 01:56.16 | Spline | ibot: cocoon |
| 01:56.20 | | XML to HTML converter. URL: http://java.apache.org/ |
| 01:57.46 | Spline | ibot: cocoon is an XML publishing framework at http://cocoon.apache.org |
| 01:57.46 | | ...but cocoon is already something else... |
| 01:58.04 | Spline | ibot> no, Cocoon is an XML Publishing Framework at http://cocoon.apache.org |
| 01:58.04 | | okay, Spline |
| 01:58.09 | Spline | ibot: cocoon |
| 01:58.10 | | i guess cocoon is an XML Publishing Framework at http://cocoon.apache.org |
| 01:58.28 | Spline | ibot: Hellaenergy is a neat idea at http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0401/hotrocks.html |
| 01:58.29 | | Spline: okay |
| 01:58.40 | Spline | lol |
| 01:59.04 | Spline | ibot tell Hellaenergy about Hellaenergy |
| 02:00.16 | Spline | ibot: freshmeat? |
| 02:00.17 | | i heard freshmeat is at http://www.freshmeat.net |
| 02:00.22 | Spline | ibot freshmeat |
| 02:00.23 | | from memory, freshmeat is at http://www.freshmeat.net |
| 02:00.30 | Spline | ~freshmeat |
| 02:00.31 | | i heard freshmeat is at http://www.freshmeat.net |
| 02:00.36 | Spline | bleh |
| 02:04.52 | *** join/#tomcat bjf (~chatzilla@longfellow.dstc.edu.au) |
| 02:06.21 | *** join/#tomcat Hellaenergy (~Hellaener@hellaweb.com) |
| 02:06.29 | bjf | question: this dosen't seem apparent to me from the documentation... but is it possible to configure the JSP compiler to rather than lazily compile pages when an application is started, compile everything in one hit? |
| 02:07.07 | Hellaenergy | ibot: compile_jsp |
| 02:07.08 | | Hellaenergy: i don't know |
| 02:07.16 | Hellaenergy | ibot: jsp_compile |
| 02:07.17 | | Hellaenergy: have you tried http://www.tldp.org/ ? |
| 02:08.33 | *** join/#tomcat Spline-- (~dj_aia@anja.isisnetworks.net) |
| 02:08.39 | Hellaenergy | bjf: It is possible using Ant |
| 02:08.52 | Spline-- | lol |
| 02:08.56 | Spline-- | ibot: Hellaenergy |
| 02:08.57 | | i heard hellaenergy is a neat idea at http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0401/hotrocks.html |
| 02:09.05 | Hellaenergy | whats with that :) |
| 02:09.22 | bjf | ta. |
| 02:09.25 | *** part/#tomcat bjf (~chatzilla@longfellow.dstc.edu.au) |
| 02:09.34 | Spline-- | so now you have to figure out how to correct ibot :) |
| 02:09.36 | Spline-- | ibot: cocoon |
| 02:09.36 | | somebody said cocoon was an XML Publishing Framework at http://cocoon.apache.org |
| 02:11.07 | Spline-- | ibot: arguing |
| 02:11.07 | | Spline--: are you using Windows? |
| 02:11.22 | Spline-- | ibot: arguing is at http://www.clanhcc.com/funny/arguing.jpg |
| 02:11.23 | | okay, Spline-- |
| 02:50.19 | *** join/#tomcat Gnug225 (~Gnug225@24.236.252.183.gha.mi.chartermi.net) |
| 02:53.21 | *** join/#tomcat DieselChrist- (cobalt@pm6-s029.amazon.com.br) |
| 02:53.35 | DieselChrist- | 'lo |
| 02:54.03 | Hellaenergy | 'lo |
| 02:54.29 | Hellaenergy | Welcome |
| 02:58.40 | jasonb | Whoa, a much stronger, yet slower-to-accelerate Christ! |
| 02:59.22 | DieselChrist- | :D |
| 02:59.33 | jasonb | :) |
| 03:03.55 | Hellaenergy | jasonb: have you used the new beta yet? |
| 03:04.12 | jasonb | Not yet. I'm about to try it though! :) |
| 03:04.29 | Hellaenergy | I am thinking about it |
| 03:04.39 | Hellaenergy | Sound promising |
| 03:04.47 | Hellaenergy | s/Sound/Sounds |
| 03:04.48 | jasonb | It's probably good. |
| 03:05.56 | DieselChrist- | which beta? |
| 03:06.09 | DieselChrist- | oh sure... 5.0? |
| 03:06.32 | Hellaenergy | 4.1.21 acually |
| 03:11.29 | DieselChrist- | the latest stable still 4.1.18, does it? |
| 03:17.56 | Hellaenergy | yes |
| 03:18.30 | Hellaenergy | Seems like alot of schools use tomcat for teaching :) |
| 03:20.52 | DieselChrist- | yes, you're right. |
| 03:21.12 | Hellaenergy | ibot: What is a Spline |
| 03:21.13 | | Hellaenergy: I think you lost me on that one |
| 03:21.14 | DieselChrist- | well... that's a struts courseware. |
| 03:21.24 | Hellaenergy | ah |
| 03:21.33 | Spline | lol |
| 03:21.41 | Hellaenergy | DieselChrist-: Did you know there was a #struts channel? |
| 03:22.19 | DieselChrist- | yes. i'm there. :) |
| 03:23.12 | Spline | ibot: Spline is at http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/Teaching/1999/AGraphHCI/SMAG/node5.html |
| 03:23.13 | | Spline: okay |
| 03:23.29 | DieselChrist- | shame. hsql is unmaintained. hsqldb is... but server.xml still references to the old hsql driver |
| 03:23.31 | Spline | ibot: can you tell be about Hellaenergy? |
| 03:23.31 | | Spline: I give up, what is it? |
| 03:23.39 | Spline | ibot: hellaenergy |
| 03:23.41 | | somebody said hellaenergy was a neat idea at http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0401/hotrocks.html |
| 03:35.59 | Hellaenergy | no |
| 03:36.43 | Hellaenergy | as a matter of fact I am kind of heavenly accoding to my girlfriend ;) |
| 03:36.58 | *** join/#tomcat mapleman (mapleman@mapleman.usercloak.freenode) |
| 03:38.32 | DieselChrist- | girlfriends are evil |
| 03:38.48 | DieselChrist- | well... i don't care. lost women are the most sought anyway. :) |
| 03:39.24 | DieselChrist- | (if you don't understand, excuse me. it's a brazilian expression) |
| 03:40.29 | Hellaenergy | ibot: lart Spline |
| 03:44.01 | Hellaenergy | DieselChrist-: Are you OK? |
| 03:44.04 | Hellaenergy | lol |
| 03:45.44 | DieselChrist- | err... no. i just took too much sun this carnival. my shoulder skin's no longer skin. just flesh. :) |
| 03:47.28 | Spline | ouch |
| 03:51.29 | DieselChrist- | well. in brazil, carnival is a holiday from monday to half wednesday. |
| 03:51.48 | DieselChrist- | 5 days of fun. |
| 03:52.27 | DieselChrist- | i live in the amazon. we went to salinas, a town where the beaches are in the atlantic, and are so large that people can put their cars there. i did it :D |
| 03:56.25 | Hellaenergy | DieselChrist-: That sound really nice |
| 03:56.37 | Hellaenergy | s/sound/sounds/ |
| 03:58.56 | DieselChrist- | sure it is |
| 03:59.31 | DieselChrist- | it's amazing to hang on a beach in the midnight, to look around and find nightclubs, and people having fun in the front of the ocean... |
| 04:03.03 | anelson | anyone know how to disable the track and trace methods in tomcat |
| 04:03.04 | anelson | ? |
| 04:04.29 | DieselChrist- | could you explain? |
| 04:04.39 | anelson | DieselChrist-: me? |
| 04:04.49 | Hellaenergy | anelson: ya you! |
| 04:04.53 | Hellaenergy | :) |
| 04:05.33 | anelson | http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/vulnwatch/2003-q1/0035.html |
| 04:05.41 | anelson | that url might do a better job |
| 04:06.36 | DieselChrist- | hm ... |
| 04:06.37 | anelson | also i don't have tomcat listening on it's own the only way it it can be accessed is through apache and mod_jk |
| 04:06.55 | DieselChrist- | you might tune up your web.xml setup so you can deny these requests. |
| 04:07.21 | DieselChrist- | i think there's a global web.xml who can do the job for you... |
| 04:07.25 | anelson | i did the apache fix allready but nessus still says i'm vulnerable |
| 04:08.07 | anelson | DieselChrist-: i'm really new to the whole tomcat admin thing so any pointer on what i'm looking for or even how to do it would be great |
| 04:08.37 | DieselChrist- | we don't do pointers... we're java programmers, after all |
| 04:08.42 | DieselChrist- | lemme check |
| 04:10.54 | DieselChrist- | i can't help you the way i really wanted, but check http://www.acknowledge.co.uk/snippets/java/docs/com/ack/servlet/BasicAuthenticationWebResource.java.html for a web.xml sample. you might check out web.xml dtd and specs (j2ee specs for web containers, jsp/servlet stuff). it might help you better. |
| 04:11.35 | anelson | i would have thought that as soon as apache saw a request like TRACE /examples/ or anything with TRACE it would reject it before it sent the request to mod_jk |
| 04:13.33 | DieselChrist- | then it's not tomcat. it's apache. |
| 04:14.40 | anelson | nope if i turn tomcat off then apache isn't vulnerable |
| 04:14.44 | DieselChrist- | check the apache docs and setup for any track/trace request. since they're seldom used keywords, i suggest you start looking, for example, at the mod_dav docs... and figuring out what they do, along with the apache docs, which are really compreensive. |
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| 04:15.02 | anelson | DieselChrist-: i've allready done it with apache |
| 04:15.26 | DieselChrist- | nah. mod_jk will have conditions to call tomcat. you might check these conditions... and tune them ;) |
| 04:15.41 | anelson | ahhh maybe i see |
| 04:16.07 | anelson | so maybe i could tell mod_jk to not forward anything with a TRACE | TRACK to tomcat? |
| 04:16.24 | anelson | although it would be cool to just configure tomcat not to accept them either |
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| 05:25.28 | Hellaenergy | night |
| 05:25.30 | *** part/#tomcat Hellaenergy (~Hellaener@hellaweb.com) |
| 05:41.13 | *** part/#tomcat anelson (~andy@12-254-190-230.client.attbi.com) |
| 05:53.34 | *** part/#tomcat DieselChrist- (cobalt@pm6-s029.amazon.com.br) |
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| 09:59.22 | a4akb | Goodafternoon. |
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| 10:30.49 | *** join/#tomcat Karol_ (~nobody@p5089478B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 10:48.38 | a4akb | i wonder how can php run on sites that dont have any servers..any idea? |
| 10:49.06 | a4akb | like geocities provides only space, but i saw a few guys runing good apps there..how? |
| 10:56.24 | Karol_ | a4akb, you need a server that runs your PHP scripts. File server won't do. |
| 10:56.47 | *** join/#tomcat farmer (~black@193.77.151.145) |
| 10:57.23 | a4akb | Karol_ what kind of server? |
| 10:57.24 | a4akb | apache? |
| 10:57.29 | a4akb | but i know a site on geocities that runs on php |
| 10:57.55 | Karol_ | This shouldn't really matter for you. Just talk to your provider to give you PHP support. |
| 10:58.15 | Karol_ | it is very common to have it, don't worry that your privider won't know what you need. |
| 10:58.42 | Karol_ | just tell your provider: "I want to run PHP scripts." They will know. |
| 10:58.56 | a4akb | my isp? |
| 10:59.31 | Karol_ | for example, your ISP. Or any webhoster out there. All of them support PHP (or 90% or them perhaps) |
| 11:00.06 | Karol_ | hey, why don't you take a look to #php |
| 11:00.21 | farmer | hmm isetup a user with role tomcat and when i try to login to the admin tool i get resource denied.. where do i set that? .. i cant find it in the docs |
| 11:00.23 | Karol_ | I'm sure they will give you more precise information, since this is a pure Java forum |
| 11:00.49 | a4akb | i got the proider thing but where to place the php files? |
| 11:01.16 | Karol_ | a4akb, your provider will host your html documents (or php documents) |
| 11:01.43 | a4akb | ok |
| 11:01.44 | Karol_ | farmer, are you using the memory realm of tomcat? (tomcat-users.xml) |
| 11:01.49 | a4akb | sounds interesting |
| 11:01.55 | farmer | yes tomcat-users.xml |
| 11:02.01 | farmer | i restared tomcat too |
| 11:02.12 | Karol_ | did you specify the "tomcat" role in the tomcat-users.xml ? |
| 11:02.14 | farmer | <PROTECTED> |
| 11:02.14 | farmer | <PROTECTED> |
| 11:02.18 | Karol_ | ok |
| 11:02.26 | farmer | i deleted the other example lines |
| 11:02.42 | farmer | seems like i have to edit the policy for resources somewhere or something |
| 11:03.05 | Karol_ | Take a look at the "web.xml" of the admin webapp and see what role the security-constrain references |
| 11:05.50 | Karol_ | but I believe that the role for the admininstration webapp was "admin" |
| 11:06.54 | farmer | <PROTECTED> |
| 11:06.54 | farmer | <PROTECTED> |
| 11:06.56 | farmer | yep you are right :) |
| 11:06.59 | Karol_ | ok |
| 11:07.21 | farmer | is there anyway for tomcat to rehash the configs |
| 11:07.26 | farmer | or is it neccesary to restart |
| 11:08.32 | Karol_ | farmer, I don't know about the memory realm (I haven't really used it much...) . Why don't you try to change it and see if Tomcat recognizes a changed resource and perhaps reloads the realm |
| 11:08.39 | Karol_ | (or updates) |
| 11:09.45 | farmer | i did that yesterday.. didnt take effect i think |
| 11:10.23 | farmer | ok got in cool.. now im waiting for it to load everything |
| 11:17.05 | farmer | ok the deployed programs are under webapps/ .. is that also the place for me to develop new progs? |
| 11:17.15 | farmer | im totaly lost in this concept.. :)( |
| 11:22.47 | Karol_ | Sorry I was away |
| 11:23.36 | Karol_ | If you develop your own WebApp and want to deploy it on Tomcat, either copy the directory or a proper WAR archive to the WebApp folder |
| 11:24.21 | farmer | aha |
| 11:24.29 | farmer | but what would be a good place to develop it>? :) |
| 11:24.34 | farmer | im mean where |
| 11:25.38 | Karol_ | That is up to you alone. You deploy a well packaged application that comes from <somewhere> |
| 11:25.56 | Karol_ | to give you a hint, take a look at Ant (http://ant.apache.org/) |
| 11:26.09 | Karol_ | you can use Ant to do the packaging and deploying for you. |
| 11:26.46 | Karol_ | Those are, however, slightly advanced topics, I suggest that you make yourself familiar with the concept of Web Applications and the Servlet / JSP specification |
| 11:27.06 | farmer | yeah i shall :) |
| 11:27.06 | farmer | thanks |
| 11:30.58 | *** join/#tomcat vakYpollo (~higopico@151.Red-80-36-135.pooles.rima-tde.net) |
| 11:31.53 | acollins | does anyone know how to get tomcat 4.1.12 to do autodeployment of WARs? I have unpackWARs="true" autoDeploy="true" set in the localhost virtual host....but it's not working |
| 11:35.30 | acollins | also, does anyone know how to set up a webapps with it's own log file instead of having everything go to catalina.out or localhost.log? |
| 11:49.04 | KarolR | as to your second question: |
| 11:49.49 | KarolR | put the following element under your <context /> |
| 11:49.49 | KarolR | <PROTECTED> |
| 11:50.51 | *** join/#tomcat Pointy_Work (~Pointwood@fw.agropark.dk) |
| 11:50.56 | KarolR | To your first question, it should autodeloy out-of-the-box |
| 11:51.23 | *** join/#tomcat TomekN2 (~tnowak@zorro.netventure.pl) |
| 11:51.36 | KarolR | if it doesn't, you might have an invalid web.xml |
| 11:51.48 | TomekN2 | hi. |
| 11:51.54 | acollins | KarolR: thanks, can I do the logging from within the webapps's web.xml? so that I can just drop a new war on a new machine without editing configs/ |
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| 11:52.10 | acollins | KarolR: cool, I'll look at my web.xml for the deployment... |
| 11:52.41 | KarolR | acollins: no you can't declare logging in web.xml, since this is the standard deployment descriptor and goes by the spec which doesn't include any logging features. |
| 11:53.47 | acollins | KarolR: ok, I was going to use ServletContext.log()... |
| 11:54.04 | acollins | KarolR: but, I only use tomcat...so it probably not an issue ;-) |
| 11:55.42 | acollins | KarolR: I've set my <Context path="" docBase="blackbox" debug="0"/> so that blackbox becomes the root...would that break autodeployment? |
| 12:04.25 | acollins | ah, looks like it does :-( |
| 12:14.07 | a4akb | ... |
| 12:14.43 | a4akb | floats even |
| 12:21.26 | KarolR | Sorry, I was away |
| 12:22.27 | KarolR | I would set docBase="/to/your/absolute/path/on/filesystem" |
| 12:27.58 | acollins | KarolR: thanks for the help. top stuff :-) |
| 12:30.37 | TomekN2 | what Context object are passed to webapp as context-keys? |
| 12:33.48 | farmer | will tomca |
| 12:33.52 | farmer | ups |
| 12:35.04 | farmer | im following the book i made in webapps/ : bible directory and inside WEB-INF .. and in WEB-INF web.xml and classes/Hello.java and classes/Hello.class and when i try localhost:8180/bible/servlet/Hello it cant find it |
| 12:35.53 | KarolR | not localhost:8080 ? did you configure the coyote http11 connector to run on port 8180 ? |
| 12:35.56 | vakYpollo | farmer: I don't know exactly but you have to include a servlet-mapping in web.xml |
| 12:36.00 | farmer | hmmm |
| 12:36.15 | farmer | well http://localhost:8180/examples/servlet/RequestHeaderExample this works |
| 12:36.20 | vakYpollo | (sorry, yes: 8180 seems to be wrong port) |
| 12:36.21 | farmer | the xamples work on 8180 |
| 12:36.24 | KarolR | ok |
| 12:37.05 | farmer | im using the default configuration.. 8080 isnt even open :) |
| 12:37.39 | vakYpollo | farmer: can we see your web.xml file? (use http://www.hellaweb.com:8888/) |
| 12:37.50 | farmer | hmm sure |
| 12:38.20 | vakYpollo | TomekN2: what are context keys? |
| 12:38.23 | farmer | http://section.ath.cx/web.xml |
| 12:38.35 | farmer | ups not thats not it |
| 12:38.55 | TomekN2 | vakYpollo see: http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/apidocs/org/apache/cocoon/util/log/CocoonTargetFactory.html |
| 12:38.56 | farmer | now its the correct one |
| 12:39.09 | farmer | its very simple copied from the book |
| 12:39.23 | TomekN2 | vakYpollo value in <filename>...</filename> |
| 12:40.51 | hellabot | "kmet" pasted <!DOCTYPE web-app PUBLIC "-//S at http://www.hellaweb.com:8888/72 |
| 12:40.53 | vakYpollo | farmer: it seems to be very simple, yes. I have not tried a so simple web.xml. |
| 12:40.59 | farmer | http://www.hellaweb.com:8888/72 |
| 12:41.10 | farmer | here too |
| 12:41.18 | farmer | hmm probably i need something more then |
| 12:42.33 | vakYpollo | farmer: try to add: <servler><servlet-name>Hello</servlet-name><servlet-class>Hello</servlet-class></servler> <servlet-mapping><servlet-name>Hello</servlet-name><url-pattern>/Hello</url-pattern></servlet-mapping> |
| 12:42.51 | farmer | okay |
| 12:42.55 | vakYpollo | (<servlet> not <servler>) |
| 12:43.27 | vakYpollo | farmer: between <wab-app> and </web-app> |
| 12:43.34 | farmer | hmm did that |
| 12:43.41 | vakYpollo | ;) |
| 12:44.12 | farmer | same herror |
| 12:44.59 | vakYpollo | farmer: exactyl, what error? |
| 12:45.08 | farmer | The requested resource (/bible/servlet/Hello) is not available. |
| 12:46.55 | vakYpollo | farmer: try localhost:8180/bible/Hello |
| 12:46.58 | farmer | hmm i see something with servlet-mapping in examples/WEB-INF/web.xml |
| 12:47.02 | farmer | vakYpollo: just did same |
| 12:47.06 | farmer | ah without servl |
| 12:47.18 | farmer | wee that works |
| 12:47.19 | farmer | thanks |
| 12:47.25 | vakYpollo | np |
| 12:47.37 | farmer | the book writer seems to have a diffrent configuration |
| 12:55.30 | a4akb | 4suffering suffercats! |
| 12:56.03 | a4akb | i downloaded the easy php installer like for an hour, and i find out its in Deutch :( |
| 12:56.09 | a4akb | :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~( |
| 13:05.22 | vakYpollo | TomekN2: I see ${context-keys} is like a variable substitution, isn't it? |
| 13:05.55 | vakYpollo | TomekN2: in this case, I suppose to get the context path... |
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| 14:51.33 | KarolR | . |
| 14:55.11 | *** join/#tomcat bwolf (core@p50805FC4.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 15:23.04 | *** join/#tomcat akb_oOo (akb@as4-3.qualitynet.net) |
| 15:23.14 | akb_oOo | hey all |
| 15:28.57 | KarolR | hi |
| 15:37.09 | bwolf | hrm, i have touble loggin in to admin.app |
| 15:38.19 | bwolf | I'll get The request sent by the client was syntactically incorrect (Invalid direct reference to form login page) |
| 15:38.36 | bwolf | although I have <user username="admin" password="admin" roles="manager,admin"/> |
| 15:38.49 | bwolf | in tomcat-users.xml |
| 15:38.55 | bwolf | any pointers? |
| 15:42.38 | *** join/#tomcat a4akb (akb@as4-60.qualitynet.net) |
| 15:42.41 | a4akb | hey |
| 15:42.57 | bwolf | hiho |
| 15:43.11 | a4akb | i got a bundled software called easyphp, it boasts of having mysql, apache and php all in one.. |
| 15:44.14 | a4akb | unfortunately i got the wrong language support in it.. |
| 15:44.14 | a4akb | in the www folder, i put a sample .php code |
| 15:44.39 | a4akb | when icall it through localhost, it gives something i cant read nor understand, whats the right procedure i should access the page? |
| 15:46.36 | a4akb | bye bbl... |
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| 16:12.25 | KarolR | a4akb: please consult the #php channel with php-specific questions |
| 16:12.56 | KarolR | php does not have anything in common with Tomcat or Java topics |
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| 16:45.08 | KarolR | Anybody familiar with Jakarta Digester here? |
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| 19:39.09 | akb_oOo | Goodevening |
| 19:41.09 | akb_oOo | :( someone stole my original nick |
| 19:42.34 | akb_oOo | does tomcat and apache conflict over same localhost? |
| 19:48.07 | *** join/#tomcat Hellaenergy (~Hellaener@209.181.237.141) |
| 19:48.25 | akb_oOo | hey hella! |
| 19:48.34 | Hellaenergy | whats the best version control system? |
| 19:48.44 | akb_oOo | how have u been? |
| 19:48.49 | Hellaenergy | whats the best open source/free version control system? |
| 19:48.52 | Hellaenergy | good thanks |
| 19:49.08 | akb_oOo | good 2 know |
| 19:49.35 | akb_oOo | which cs? |
| 19:56.59 | *** join/#tomcat jasonb (~jasonb@nat1.sp.collab.net) |
| 20:05.31 | Hellaenergy | jasonb: Whats a good source control system/version control system? |
| 20:07.25 | akb_oOo | hey jasonb |
| 20:07.32 | akb_oOo | Goodmorning to you all. |
| 20:14.26 | akb_oOo | An important problem in program development and maintenance is version control, i.e., the task of keeping a software system consisting of many versions and configurations well organized. The Revision Control System (RCS) is a software tool that assists with that task. RCS manages revisions of text documents, in particular source programs, documentation, and test data. It automates the storing, retrieval, logging and identification of revisions, |
| 20:27.18 | farmer | Hellaenergy: http://www.cvshome.org/ maybe this? |
| 20:31.21 | jasonb | Hellaenergy: Subversion! |
| 20:31.27 | jasonb | No more CVS! |
| 20:31.44 | jasonb | http://subversion.tigris.org/ |
| 20:33.16 | jasonb | akb_oOo: Fiction. |
| 20:33.29 | akb_oOo | hmm' |
| 20:33.46 | akb_oOo | so where is the topic which will get me my noble prize for research.. |
| 20:35.08 | jasonb | :) |
| 20:35.34 | jasonb | Hmm.. Which operating systems can you do the research about? |
| 20:35.47 | jasonb | (which ones can you use to try stuff out on?) |
| 20:35.49 | akb_oOo | hey jasonb nice shine, did u brush ur teeth twice ;) ur smile is gleaming with confidence. |
| 20:36.35 | jasonb | Am I smiling? |
| 20:36.46 | akb_oOo | DONT REMIND ME OF OS :~~~~( |
| 20:36.54 | akb_oOo | i just found out.. |
| 20:37.08 | akb_oOo | oracle is not certified to run on 98 se :((((( |
| 20:37.44 | akb_oOo | hmm |
| 20:37.53 | akb_oOo | maybe on xp professional |
| 20:38.02 | jasonb | akb_oOo: I think you should put together a howto doc about how to install both RH linux and Tomcat, from a Windows user's perspective. |
| 20:38.07 | jasonb | That's really what I'd suggest. |
| 20:38.16 | jasonb | You're not the only one in that position. |
| 20:38.28 | akb_oOo | :S |
| 20:38.35 | akb_oOo | windows stink |
| 20:38.36 | ianni | lol |
| 20:38.38 | ianni | oracle on 98 |
| 20:38.40 | ianni | that's funny ;) |
| 20:39.08 | akb_oOo | life is funny |
| 20:39.28 | jasonb | Hellaenergy: Seriously, I suggest you get Subversion and start using it. Especially if you're going to start fresh with a brand new repository. |
| 20:39.32 | akb_oOo | how was your night jasonb? slept well? |
| 20:39.46 | jasonb | akb_oOo: Actually, I did. And you? |
| 20:40.10 | akb_oOo | yawn, i dont know yet |
| 20:40.27 | akb_oOo | i was waiting here till 4am for u to give me a topic then i left and slept ok |
| 20:40.36 | farmer | whats a good library or something to seperate code/html under servlets/jsp .. like templates or something? |
| 20:41.01 | jasonb | farmer: Struts. |
| 20:41.10 | ianni | velocity. |
| 20:41.19 | jasonb | velocity sucks. |
| 20:41.22 | ianni | dude |
| 20:41.29 | ianni | you recommend struts and say *velocity* sucks? |
| 20:41.39 | farmer | ok i will try both and decide :)) |
| 20:41.40 | akb_oOo | velocity= distance travelled by time taken to travel that distance |
| 20:41.43 | jasonb | Struts takes users in the direction of the industry standard.. JSP. Like it or not. |
| 20:41.45 | ianni | farmer: best bet |
| 20:41.56 | ianni | I have better standards than the industry. |
| 20:41.57 | ianni | ;) |
| 20:42.03 | jasonb | farmer: Feel free to try both. They're open & free. |
| 20:42.15 | ianni | struts is definitely the most supported one i know of though |
| 20:42.27 | jasonb | ianni: I just don't agree. I've used both quite a bit, and I really dislike velocity. |
| 20:42.28 | ianni | not that struts and velocity are really comparable |
| 20:42.32 | ianni | jasonb: why? |
| 20:42.48 | ianni | jasonb: tried webwork? it's nicer than struts, for me |
| 20:43.03 | ianni | it isnt perfect either.. but what is |
| 20:43.12 | ianni | velocity is a templating engine |
| 20:43.18 | ianni | struts is a JSP MVC framework |
| 20:43.19 | jasonb | ianni: Velocity is *not* robust code. Struts is. Velocity doesn't offer as much flexibility as Struts/JSP. Velocity's code is a total RATS NEST, and Struts & JSP is very readable and maintainable code. |
| 20:43.27 | ianni | jasonb: I like simplicity. |
| 20:43.33 | ianni | velocity is fast. |
| 20:43.38 | ianni | and does not tie you down to anything. |
| 20:43.40 | ianni | it works. |
| 20:43.40 | jasonb | So is Struts. |
| 20:43.41 | ianni | *shrug* |
| 20:43.47 | ianni | struts ties you directly to the web, man! |
| 20:43.53 | ianni | and passed around servlet objects! |
| 20:43.55 | ianni | passes |
| 20:44.02 | jasonb | Velocity ties you down to so many things dude! Turbine, which sucks sucks sucks! |
| 20:44.06 | ianni | uh |
| 20:44.13 | ianni | velocity depends on turbine? |
| 20:44.23 | farmer | i like that everything connected to java has that cleanless and enterprise feel to it:-) |
| 20:44.34 | farmer | sofar i've only done php (yuck) |
| 20:44.39 | ianni | well, php sucks :) |
| 20:44.41 | jasonb | Turbine was created to get around things missing in the servlets 1.0 and 2.0 specs. Well those things aren't missing from the modern servlet specs anymore.. so how come we need Turbine? We don't. |
| 20:44.53 | farmer | i like ruby but its not mature enough to use for real web stuff |
| 20:44.55 | ianni | jasonb: I dont know what turbine is and i dont care. I use velocity! |
| 20:44.57 | jasonb | php sucks worse than velocity! |
| 20:45.06 | ianni | as far as I know |
| 20:45.06 | jasonb | ianni: You also use Turbine. |
| 20:45.09 | akb_oOo | hey guys did i introduce u all to joezilla? |
| 20:45.12 | ianni | velocity has nothing to do with turbine |
| 20:45.15 | ianni | jasonb: no... |
| 20:45.21 | ianni | jasonb: maybe internally.. but it works! |
| 20:45.29 | ianni | i can render tempaltes in sheer milliseconds |
| 20:45.32 | ianni | and it's very readable |
| 20:45.34 | ianni | so whatever :P |
| 20:45.36 | jasonb | ianni: And, if you have a bug, you may find that the bug is in Turbine, and you will have to go make a change to Turbine source and get it to recompile.. that SUCKS because it's a total rats nest. |
| 20:45.47 | ianni | jasonb: well, struts make MY applications a rats nest |
| 20:45.51 | ianni | so no thanks :) |
| 20:45.58 | jasonb | Both kinds of templates are readable. |
| 20:46.08 | ianni | jasonb: what other kind are ya talkin about? |
| 20:46.11 | ianni | jsp ? |
| 20:46.20 | ianni | or is turbine a templating thing too? |
| 20:46.21 | farmer | ok one more question.. if i'm making a page with j2ee and all will i need more computing power to back it up as opossed to the php variant (it wont be any really busy site)? |
| 20:46.29 | ianni | farmer: depends on the code, silly |
| 20:46.39 | farmer | well is it more hungry:) |
| 20:46.40 | jasonb | ianni: Struts offers features, but you don't need to use them all if you don't want to. If you'd rather just use features that keep your app clean in your definition of clean, you can do that with Struts. |
| 20:47.04 | ianni | jasonb: but then I am tied down to JSP/servlet land with it |
| 20:47.16 | ianni | with ww/velocity, or ww/jsp, it's totally agnostic |
| 20:47.18 | jasonb | farmer: You shouldn't need any more computing power. J2EE is efficient. |
| 20:47.30 | ianni | not to mention it's easier to set up and code.. (*it seems to me*) |
| 20:47.37 | farmer | ok thanks |
| 20:47.57 | ianni | it hides more maybe... but at least I can do stuff more properly... |
| 20:47.57 | jasonb | ianni: You'll always be tied to something, so it's best to be tied to an industry standard so you can play well with others, and also an implementation that is maintainable. |
| 20:48.06 | ianni | seems struts goes against spec even at points.. |
| 20:48.11 | ianni | jasonb: I guess that's a valid argument... |
| 20:48.21 | jasonb | Struts goes against no spec. |
| 20:48.33 | ianni | jasonb: even when it passes around the HttpServletRequests? |
| 20:48.39 | ianni | maybe it's changed recently |
| 20:49.41 | jasonb | Struts only does spec-compliant things. At least one of the main authors of Struts works for Sun and is working to make Struts another Sun standard.. and he also wrote Tomcat 4, so he knows standards compliance well. |
| 20:49.51 | ianni | so what... |
| 20:49.56 | akb_oOo | the green thing on this page is joezilla http://www.joecartoon.com/pages/amazing/ |
| 20:50.04 | jasonb | So he's not going to stupidly make it not comply with the Java Servlet Specification. |
| 20:50.15 | ianni | hell, tomcat didnt comply with a lot of it up till now |
| 20:50.21 | ianni | i think it still doesnt in a few cases, classloader wise |
| 20:50.30 | ianni | does 4.1.18 load tld's from jars? |
| 20:50.44 | jasonb | ianni: Wrong. Tomcat has been very compliant with the Servlet specs since about 2000. |
| 20:50.56 | ianni | jasonb: even when tomcat 3 had no XML JSP? |
| 20:51.21 | ianni | even when catalina wouldnt load TLD's from JAR files? |
| 20:51.22 | jasonb | I'm referring to Tomcat 4. Not 3. 3 was a rats nest in itself. |
| 20:51.29 | ianni | even when crappy classloader bugs fuck everyone up |
| 20:51.32 | ianni | ;) |
| 20:51.37 | ianni | yeah, you gotta admit... 3 wasn't the best |
| 20:51.48 | ianni | and catalina is lots better |
| 20:51.55 | jasonb | The Java Servlet Spec itself is wishy washy about classloading. So, because of that, Tomcat is too, even Tomcat 4. |
| 20:51.59 | jasonb | So, it's compliant at least. |
| 20:52.01 | jasonb | :) |
| 20:52.03 | ianni | true enough ........ |
| 20:52.14 | akb_oOo | (: |
| 20:52.16 | jasonb | I know because I've also implemented an open source servlet container. |
| 20:52.30 | jasonb | So I know that the spec isn't clear on classloading. |
| 20:52.32 | ianni | anyway, doesnt struts use the HttpServletRequest outside of it's scope, as indicated in the servlet spec? |
| 20:52.37 | ianni | jasonb: very true :) |
| 20:52.41 | ianni | jasonb: which did you implement? |
| 20:52.46 | ianni | jasonb: I was thinking about doing one lately |
| 20:52.50 | jasonb | But, I know that the Tomcat 4 folks have spent a lot of time on making the classloading in TC4 be reasonable. |
| 20:52.51 | ianni | for educational value |
| 20:52.57 | ianni | jasonb: it has improved. |
| 20:53.25 | jasonb | ianni: The Locomotive Servlet Container.. it's basically gone now.. mainly because I decided not to implement a new version because Tomcat 4 was everything I wanted. |
| 20:53.45 | ianni | jetty looks cool |
| 20:54.14 | ianni | i can't use tomcat for myself... when i got other containers that smoke it in speed.. my work deploys on catalina though |
| 20:54.24 | ianni | it works fine onec you got it goin' |
| 20:54.35 | akb_oOo | lost.. |
| 20:54.38 | ianni | its just a bit sluggish it seems in deploying (only compared to much faster containers anyway) |
| 20:54.56 | farmer | and faster free containers? |
| 20:54.58 | jasonb | ianni: What servlet container do you think smokes Tomcat 4? |
| 20:54.58 | ianni | as open source, it seems the best |
| 20:55.05 | ianni | jasonb: orion and resin is what I use |
| 20:55.09 | ianni | BUT |
| 20:55.13 | jasonb | ianni: Have you benchmarked those?? |
| 20:55.20 | ianni | I think jetty is now comparable now that they implemented http connection pooling |
| 20:55.21 | ianni | jasonb: yes |
| 20:55.29 | ianni | not that it matters |
| 20:55.36 | ianni | the difference is very easy to tell, for my applications |
| 20:55.40 | ianni | hell, without any installed even |
| 20:56.02 | ianni | I develop a lot of J2EE stuff.. I am used to discerning the times taken to do stuff |
| 20:57.28 | jasonb | http://webperformanceinc.com/library/ServletReport/index.html |
| 20:57.52 | jasonb | As you can see from this more official benchmark report, none of them "smoked" Tomcat. They're all about even. |
| 20:58.04 | ianni | I've read this... |
| 20:58.09 | jasonb | Some things are better in one of them than another, but everything considered, they're about even. |
| 20:58.13 | ianni | they didnt bnechmark deployment time. |
| 20:58.39 | jasonb | deployment time.. heh! |
| 20:58.54 | ianni | yeah, some of us use classes other than servlets... :) |
| 20:59.05 | jasonb | Do you think your web site viewers care about your deployment time? :) |
| 20:59.09 | ianni | noe |
| 20:59.13 | jasonb | Exactly. |
| 20:59.20 | ianni | which is why I don't ever have to tell them I use the faster container for development |
| 20:59.24 | ianni | nor which container I use for production :) |
| 20:59.43 | ianni | 3 seconds x 100 is a lot |
| 21:00.26 | akb_oOo | O(n),O(n square) et all |
| 21:02.09 | ianni | it's a useful way to describe efficiency, I suppose |
| 21:03.03 | akb_oOo | but no one cares |
| 21:03.39 | ianni | *shrug* |
| 21:03.49 | ianni | they should |
| 21:04.06 | ianni | O(n) is O(n) whether or not you're familiar with the notation :) |
| 21:04.19 | ianni | and it is faster than O(n^2) |
| 21:04.41 | ianni | jsut imagine one for loop as O(n) and two for loops, nested, as O(n*n) |
| 21:04.48 | ianni | (I believe that is accurate) |
| 21:05.08 | ianni | it's a very generic terminology |
| 21:05.38 | farmer | http://www.e-michael.jp/gallery.htm |
| 21:06.02 | akb_oOo | :) |
| 21:06.05 | akb_oOo | good old days |
| 21:06.23 | ianni | hah |
| 21:06.38 | ianni | anyone read japanese? |
| 21:06.39 | ianni | hehe |
| 21:07.46 | akb_oOo | hmm |
| 21:08.15 | Hellaenergy | jasonb: Thanks |
| 21:08.40 | akb_oOo | wow that was a quick reply hella ;) |
| 21:09.20 | akb_oOo | how is ur cold? |
| 21:09.49 | Hellaenergy | jasonb: Thanks alot ;) |
| 21:09.56 | akb_oOo | lol |
| 21:10.01 | akb_oOo | he aint here i guess |
| 21:16.04 | akb_oOo | ah got it |
| 21:16.13 | akb_oOo | where do i send my work for review? |
| 21:16.53 | akb_oOo | when i write it |
| 21:32.05 | Hellaenergy | what work? |
| 21:32.50 | akb_oOo | noble prize? |
| 21:38.24 | akb_oOo | if i write something on tomcat, where can i send it or paste it |
| 21:46.15 | Hellaenergy | cvs I believe |
| 21:46.36 | Hellaenergy | I would ask that question on the tomcat-devel mailing list first, though |
| 21:47.17 | akb_oOo | cool |
| 21:50.48 | akb_oOo | bye all nightnight |
| 22:17.42 | *** join/#tomcat xap (~mpeck@209-232-191-110.ded.pacbell.net) |
| 22:17.44 | *** part/#tomcat xap (~mpeck@209-232-191-110.ded.pacbell.net) |
| 22:17.57 | *** join/#tomcat xap (~mpeck@209-232-191-110.ded.pacbell.net) |
| 22:18.05 | xap | is there an irc channel for apache jameS? |
| 22:18.55 | xap | ? |
| 22:18.58 | jasonb | :) |
| 22:24.06 | xap | this is stupid |
| 22:24.19 | xap | when i run the james run.bat, it can't load its own stupid classes |
| 22:24.57 | xap | it's looking for a class in a package that doesn't exist in the installation, i don't think |
| 22:25.09 | jasonb | Sounds like it's just stupid. |
| 22:25.13 | xap | why are open source developers so damn retarded? |
| 22:25.27 | jasonb | xap: OSS developers aren't retarded, just the JAMES authors. :) |
| 22:25.39 | xap | nah, most OSS are - look at RMS, for instance |
| 22:25.42 | xap | he's the epitome |
| 22:25.42 | jasonb | xap: Oh, and maybe the velocity authors. |
| 22:26.19 | xap | i'm gonna raise cain in the james mailing list |
| 22:26.21 | xap | toodles, peeps |
| 23:22.17 | *** join/#tomcat johnjohn7 (~johnjohn@cpe-24-221-228-20.tx.sprintbbd.net) |
| 23:22.33 | johnjohn7 | what is the max number of concurrent users on a tomcat app? |
| 23:22.59 | johnjohn7 | ie:I hear it is limited by JVM threads....that it is 75 regardless. |
| 23:23.35 | jasonb | johnjohn7: It's equal to the number you configure for maxProcessors in your connector. |
| 23:24.10 | johnjohn7 | jasonb: how high can that go? |
| 23:24.33 | johnjohn7 | or is it a function of something like memory or the OS's settings. etc. |
| 23:24.44 | jasonb | johnjohn7: Probably the highest integer that the Java language supports, or the highest number of Threads that your operating system supports. :) |
| 23:25.30 | johnjohn7 | jasonb: have any idea for Windows 2000 Pro/Server and RH 7.3 Linux assuming hardware is optimal? |
| 23:25.59 | johnjohn7 | jasonb: or is it a function of hardware or setting in the OS? |
| 23:26.00 | jasonb | Should be real, real high on both. |
| 23:26.32 | jasonb | Basically, the question you're asking is "how many independent Threads does my processor chip do before it goes so slow that it falls over?" |
| 23:26.42 | johnjohn7 | an iPlanet salesguy gave me that 75 threads deal....said it was Java's fault. |
| 23:27.22 | johnjohn7 | jasonb: chip meaning run within the CPU? |
| 23:27.33 | johnjohn7 | jasonb: or using cache? |
| 23:28.23 | johnjohn7 | I assume a million hit per day site with average session 15 minutes. that equates roughly to 10,000 users. |
| 23:28.50 | johnjohn7 | can it go that high? |
| 23:28.58 | johnjohn7 | concurrently. |
| 23:30.02 | jasonb | Well, usually, people don't try to scale one machine up that high, but you can try. I doubt that you'll get that many concurrent users serving pages in a reasonable amount of time though. Might serve, but might be real slow. |
| 23:30.27 | jasonb | What's the hardware? |
| 23:32.07 | johnjohn7 | Hmm. Assuming a Dell poweredge 8450 with eight Intel PIII Xeon at 700 MHz and 900 MHz (1Mb cache) |
| 23:32.37 | johnjohn7 | I mean 900Mhz cache at 2Mb |
| 23:33.02 | jasonb | A machine like *that* might scale up that high, assuming you've got a fast enough network link. |
| 23:33.51 | johnjohn7 | Full T3 |
| 23:33.55 | johnjohn7 | or (T1?) |
| 23:34.01 | jasonb | But what kind of NIC? |
| 23:34.11 | johnjohn7 | GHz |
| 23:34.19 | jasonb | That would probably work fine. |
| 23:35.35 | johnjohn7 | You could get 10,000 - 30,000 concurrent? |
| 23:35.52 | jasonb | Yeah, the JVM should use multiple processors just fine.. scheduling threads on all procs.. So, you've got x number of Threads that each proc can run, * 8 procs. I just don't know what x would be. |
| 23:35.53 | johnjohn7 | what about tight coupled HPCC cluster of 8 nodes |
| 23:36.13 | johnjohn7 | I see, it doesn't matter. |
| 23:36.18 | johnjohn7 | fully scalable means just that. |
| 23:36.44 | jasonb | The JVM takes full advantage of the hardware, and Tomcat takes full advantage of what the JVM provides, as long as it's configured to do so. |
| 23:36.46 | johnjohn7 | So load testing is really the only way to go. |
| 23:36.57 | jasonb | Yep! |
| 23:37.26 | johnjohn7 | I hear Orion is better. Anything better than Orion? |
| 23:38.38 | johnjohn7 | nm |
| 23:39.15 | johnjohn7 | jasonb:thx |
| 23:41.24 | jasonb | http://webperformanceinc.com/library/ServletReport/index.html |
| 23:41.39 | jasonb | johnjohn7: Orion isn't really better. |
| 23:41.56 | jasonb | johnjohn7: (other than it implementing more of J2EE, that is) |
| 23:42.20 | johnjohn7 | jasonb: Reading thank you again. |
| 23:42.30 | jasonb | johnjohn7: You're welcome. |
| 23:47.34 | johnjohn7 | jasonb:looks like Resin handles load better. |
| 23:48.55 | jasonb | johnjohn7: You can choose a servlet container that best handles what you need to handle, but when you consider everything, none of them is better than another. So, I go by price, popularity, maintainability, and stuff like that. To me, Tomcat comes out on top when considering it all. |
| 23:49.16 | johnjohn7 | popularity for certain. |
| 23:49.22 | johnjohn7 | and price. |
| 23:49.29 | jasonb | johnjohn7: Yep. |
| 23:49.37 | johnjohn7 | I am doing JBoss 3.0.0 with Tomcat 4.0.6 right now. |
| 23:49.43 | johnjohn7 | Tomcat 4.1 seems buggy. |
| 23:49.46 | jasonb | You get the source code to Tomcat, and it's pretty maintainable. |
| 23:49.55 | jasonb | Tomcat 4.1 isn't buggy, although JBoss might be. |
| 23:49.58 | johnjohn7 | It looks clean... |
| 23:49.59 | johnjohn7 | yes |
| 23:50.19 | johnjohn7 | Just not as backwards compatible with my tags...but perhaps that got fixe.d |
| 23:50.20 | jasonb | The recent releases of Tomcat 4.1 are awesome, IMO. |
| 23:50.45 | johnjohn7 | I'll look into trying it out again. |
