| 00:04.19 | *** join/#tomcat thiamteck (i=3c30667c@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-3e72b2e36168961c) |
| 00:05.29 | *** join/#tomcat thiamteck (i=3c30667c@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-6c7c0f913d323db1) |
| 00:08.09 | *** join/#tomcat thiamteck (i=3c30667c@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-0a104ad40bcf8e1e) |
| 00:42.03 | internat85 | can tomcat have a specific error log for each host context? |
| 00:56.13 | *** join/#tomcat vikumar (n=Vimal@nat/redhat-in/x-6ee2eae38d20f4ee) |
| 01:03.26 | *** join/#tomcat vikumar (n=Vimal@nat/redhat-in/x-6f6eb637710e36c5) |
| 01:03.53 | *** join/#tomcat rossand (n=rossand@CPE000c413a19a3-CM00159a025ad4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 01:04.03 | *** part/#tomcat rossand (n=rossand@CPE000c413a19a3-CM00159a025ad4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 01:10.06 | jasonb | internat85: The answer is yes. However, host != context. They are two separate entities. |
| 01:55.49 | *** join/#tomcat Hellaenergy (n=Hellaene@c-75-72-155-242.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) |
| 02:00.29 | jasonb | Hi Hellaenergy. |
| 02:05.33 | mistik1 | jasonb: I never did get that build to work |
| 02:06.16 | Hellaenergy | hi jasonb |
| 02:06.47 | Hellaenergy | Anyone here using JSF? |
| 02:08.56 | jasonb | mistik1: Our book, Tomcat: The Definitive Guide, 2nd Edition (O'Reilly) goes over how to build Tomcat step by step. That would probably help you. |
| 02:09.22 | jasonb | mistik1: It doesn't go over building the extras stuff, but does show how to build Tomcat itself. |
| 02:13.19 | lyken_ | yeah ive read it, its pretty sweet |
| 02:13.42 | jasonb | lyken_: Like it? Did you read a large chunk of it? |
| 02:13.56 | mistik1 | I just came back and looks like my brain started firing a bit better with a couple hours away |
| 02:14.18 | mistik1 | Here I was trying compilerarg when all I needed was ANT_OPTS |
| 02:14.24 | mistik1 | DUH!! |
| 02:14.32 | mistik1 | build successfull |
| 02:14.36 | jasonb | ahh, there. |
| 02:14.37 | lyken_ | jasonb: i think im the only one that has read the entire thing, including you |
| 02:15.27 | mistik1 | jasonb: Is it on safari yet? |
| 02:15.33 | jasonb | lyken_: Excellent. I have one main question then: while reading it, did it give you ideas about what features were missing from Tomcat, or what you could write for Tomcat that would be really popular? |
| 02:15.39 | jasonb | mistik1: Of course. :) |
| 02:15.44 | mistik1 | awesome |
| 02:15.53 | mistik1 | Then I'll be checking it out |
| 02:16.04 | jasonb | mistik1: It's very detailed. |
| 02:16.27 | mistik1 | Cool, there a quite few things I want to know how to do with old tommy |
| 02:16.44 | lyken_ | jasonb: yeah i found some OS X sections would be alright ;) |
| 02:17.02 | jasonb | lyken_: :) |
| 02:17.51 | jasonb | lyken_: While writing I found like three main things that I thought were really missing, and that would get used if they weren't missing anymore. |
| 02:18.31 | lyken_ | oh |
| 02:18.56 | lyken_ | gotta go out in a minute |
| 02:18.58 | lyken_ | im in miami atm |
| 02:19.09 | jasonb | lyken_: 1) an elegant, performant way to proxy requests to another web server, 2) a separate program that automates performance testing, and 3) a new API library that allows webapps to have more control over Tomcat. |
| 02:19.11 | jasonb | lyken_: Okay. |
| 02:19.22 | jasonb | lyken_: I won't keep you. Just thought I'd chat for a minute. |
| 02:19.27 | lyken_ | jasonb: yup |
| 02:19.32 | lyken_ | that sounds exactly whats missing |
| 02:19.33 | jasonb | lyken_: Stay safe over there.. ugh. |
| 02:19.40 | lyken_ | and it'll take till version 8 to get them too |
| 02:19.46 | lyken_ | eh its been great |
| 02:19.54 | lyken_ | i was pretty drunk last night and managed to only spent $30 |
| 02:19.56 | lyken_ | lol |
| 02:19.59 | jasonb | hah! |
| 02:20.04 | Hellaenergy | jasonb, a built in trouble shooting util (configtest) would be nice too. |
| 02:20.08 | lyken_ | in a place that has $9 carona's |
| 02:20.21 | lyken_ | booze soo expensive here |
| 02:20.36 | jasonb | Hellaenergy: Well, there's already a way to validate the server.xml file.. though it's probably not real exhaustive. |
| 02:20.48 | mistik1 | Will there be an embedded tomcat-6.x? |
| 02:21.01 | jasonb | lyken_: Inflation has really hit the US hard. |
| 02:21.06 | lyken_ | yes |
| 02:21.09 | jasonb | lyken_: Prices have gone up sharply. |
| 02:21.13 | lyken_ | indeed |
| 02:21.29 | jasonb | mistik1: You can already use Tomcat 6 as an embedded servlet container. See the Embedded class. |
| 02:21.34 | lyken_ | anywho, time to stop geeking out and get ready for this partay, adios |
| 02:21.41 | jasonb | mistik1: The Embedded class's Javadocs say how it works. |
| 02:21.46 | lyken_ | later jason |
| 02:21.51 | jasonb | lyken_: L8r! Have fun. |
| 02:22.09 | Hellaenergy | jasonb, how is that? |
| 02:22.13 | mistik1 | jasonb: I have done it with 5.5, unless its changed a lot |
| 02:22.43 | jasonb | mistik1: It hasn't changed all that much. |
| 02:22.51 | mistik1 | nice |
| 02:23.04 | jasonb | It might not have changed at all. |
| 02:24.44 | jasonb | Hellaenergy: Hmm, my notes only show how to perform validation of web.xml. |
| 02:26.19 | jasonb | Hellaenergy: And, doing that is very obscure. My notes say how to do it (probably scraped from the tomcat-dev list), but it only works with an old xerces jar. |
| 02:26.51 | jasonb | Hellaenergy: It might be the case that there's no way to validate a server.xml file, nor to troubleshoot what's wrong with one other than trying to run Tomcat with it. |
| 02:27.22 | jasonb | Hellaenergy: Tomcat is supposed to tell you what's going wrong, but I'll admit it isn't real good at saying what's wrong in plain english. |
| 02:35.53 | Hellaenergy | Looks like we found another thing that tomcat needs |
| 02:36.01 | jasonb | Yes. |
| 02:36.13 | jasonb | Apache httpd does offer at least one way to check the main config file. |
| 02:36.39 | Hellaenergy | Exactly thus my configtest reference :) |
| 02:36.54 | Hellaenergy | And I use that all the time |
| 02:39.06 | mistik1 | jasonb: The book is on my bookshelf ;) |
| 02:39.17 | jasonb | mistik1: Cool. Let me know what you think of it. |
| 02:39.28 | mistik1 | I will |
| 02:40.24 | Hellaenergy | mine too :) |
| 02:40.53 | Hellaenergy | I found the info on the eclipse compiler interesting |
| 02:41.02 | jasonb | It's always been on my bookshelf. :) |
| 02:41.20 | Hellaenergy | Why the hell did they do that? Licensing? |
| 02:42.04 | jasonb | do what? |
| 02:42.24 | jasonb | Reimplement a whole new Java compiler? |
| 02:43.44 | Hellaenergy | Yes |
| 02:46.38 | jasonb | What I heard was: Sun's compiler wasn't friendly at all when you needed to invoke it from within your Java application. It had memory leaks, was slow, and didn't have what many developers wanted. Also, IBM wants to control more of Java, even though Sun "owned" it, mainly because IBM can't just start a new language and try to overtake Java. |
| 02:47.20 | jasonb | Java already became the popular language. So, IBM set out to own the IDE, own the compiler, and other things. |
| 02:47.33 | Hellaenergy | Very interesting |
| 02:47.49 | jasonb | It is in large part a struggle between IBM and Sun. |
| 02:48.05 | Hellaenergy | Trying to beat Sun at their own game. |
| 02:48.43 | Hellaenergy | That seems unbelieveable to me that Sun's compiler sucks that bad. |
| 02:48.45 | jasonb | Yes. And, now that the JDK is open source, that means Sun tries to own less of Java. But, Sun isn't just allowing IBM to own the Java IDE. |
| 02:49.22 | jasonb | No, Sun's compiler has been around for a very long time, and has grown iteratively, so I believe that it has lots of design flaws that wouldn't be there if they wrote a brand new one today (like IBM did). |
| 02:49.27 | jasonb | It does make sense. |
| 02:50.03 | Hellaenergy | Interesting |
| 02:50.13 | jasonb | Also, having their own compiler is very important for owning the IDE space. |
| 02:50.17 | npm | question: if fronting a bunch of java apps through apache (mod_proxy, proxy_ajp, ProxyPass) if i want to add HTML to do google AdSense to all my apps, what's the best way to do it through apache... for example, would mod_include work? mod_layout ?? |
| 02:50.41 | jasonb | The eclipse IDE recompiles dynamically so well because IBM tightly integrated their own compiler. |
| 02:50.52 | Hellaenergy | npm try #apache |
| 02:51.14 | npm | true, but they won't know about mod_jk |
| 02:51.33 | Hellaenergy | sure they will |
| 02:51.36 | jasonb | They should know about mod_proxy. |
| 02:52.09 | jasonb | npm: Why not do the google AdSense stuff inside of your webapp instead of inside Apache httpd? |
| 02:52.12 | npm | but they're javaless heathens!! |
| 02:52.53 | npm | jasonb... because i don't want to have to maintain and customize difft code across multiple difft webapps |
| 02:53.32 | npm | i just want to slap on some ads on the top and bottom |
| 02:54.18 | jasonb | Well, okay. You may have more options to do that in httpd. |
| 02:54.55 | npm | and it also seems like a good place to "gate" whether ads are displayed at all. |
| 02:54.57 | jasonb | But, then, it won't have to do with mod_proxy nor mod_jk. It would be the same as asking "how do I include a header and/or footer in every web page that httpd serves?" |
| 02:55.29 | npm | yes. any web page, and also mod_proxy/mod_jk |
| 02:55.51 | npm | but alas for example mod_include expects .shtml files with directives... |
| 02:55.56 | jasonb | npm: it is possible to do this in Tomcat using custom ServletFilter that gets automagically included in all webapps by configuring it in conf/web.xml. |
| 02:56.04 | npm | so chances are it won't work in a straightforward fashiohn |
| 02:56.35 | npm | jasonb -- that'd probably be my second option if i can't get it working in apache |
| 02:56.59 | npm | i think the java side will incur enough load as is :-) |
| 02:57.08 | Hellaenergy | npm how are your pages constructed? |
| 02:57.38 | Hellaenergy | Do you plan to use frames or something? |
| 02:57.43 | npm | some in roller. some in xwiki, some in other tools |
| 02:58.09 | npm | no frames |
| 02:59.35 | Hellaenergy | So how did you plan on structuring your proxy definitions? |
| 03:00.35 | Hellaenergy | | /webapp/ |
| 03:00.40 | npm | e.g. ProxyPass /roller/ ajp://127.0.0.1:8009/roller/ |
| 03:01.04 | Hellaenergy | ok so all references to / will be handled by apache |
| 03:01.18 | npm | yes, all references period will be handled by apache |
| 03:01.23 | Hellaenergy | so put your good stuff there |
| 03:01.27 | npm | yep |
| 03:01.36 | npm | mod_layout might do it |
| 03:01.46 | npm | http://tangent.org/362/mod_layout.html |
| 03:02.02 | Hellaenergy | What is your delima again? |
| 03:02.07 | npm | but i was hoping for something more supported/standard that tracks apache |
| 03:02.32 | Hellaenergy | tracks apache? |
| 03:02.35 | npm | i don't want to add and support google ad additions in each webapp i subsume |
| 03:02.43 | npm | thus i want it in apache |
| 03:03.13 | npm | by tracks apache, i just mean if it's part of apache.org it has a better chance of being supported in the future and not suffering bitrot |
| 03:03.48 | Hellaenergy | Thus your questions should be directed to #apache |
| 03:04.06 | Hellaenergy | Those folks are very helpful when it comes to this type of question. |
| 03:04.07 | npm | either that or i just answered my own question :-) |
| 03:04.17 | npm | but thanks i will ask over there |
| 03:04.56 | Hellaenergy | I think you should go with jasonb's ServletFilter suggestion just because it's cool :) |
| 03:05.18 | *** join/#tomcat ong_ (n=alex_g@p549FDA73.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 03:06.05 | jasonb | It would totally work, and if done well it would add very little overhead. |
| 03:06.19 | npm | that''s option #2, but it won't do my legacy HTML pages (and i don't want to serve files from java) |
| 03:06.47 | jasonb | Another option: write a custom Tomcat Valve, doing the same thing as a Servlet Filter would do. |
| 03:07.14 | jasonb | npm: serving static files from Tomcat stand-alone is faster than serving them from Apache httpd. |
| 03:07.18 | Hellaenergy | Why don't you want Tomcat to serve yoru static content? |
| 03:07.45 | npm | the thing is, no matter what, apache is going to be fronting it for auth and security and port80 reasons |
| 03:08.30 | npm | but once it slaps on header/footer, it's no longer serving files, it's garbage collecting |
| 03:08.33 | jasonb | npm: You can. It won't be more secure that way though. |
| 03:09.40 | Hellaenergy | I second that |
| 03:09.40 | jasonb | npm: I don't know all the auth stuff you need, so it is possible you need auth implementations that only httpd has. |
| 03:09.47 | npm | mod_ssl |
| 03:09.58 | Hellaenergy | jasonb is there a ldap auth in tomcat? |
| 03:10.05 | jasonb | Hellaenergy: Of course. |
| 03:11.03 | Hellaenergy | jasonb, i've never done ldap auth with tomcat |
| 03:11.04 | *** join/#tomcat acidjnk (n=have@pD950B432.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 03:11.25 | Hellaenergy | npm tomcat can do ssl transactions |
| 03:11.26 | npm | jason : an implementation similar to the one i did http://ipssources.com for example :-) |
| 03:11.29 | jasonb | Hellaenergy: I haven't either.. yet. But, I hear it works fine. |
| 03:12.30 | npm | except I'd use http://myopenid.com instead of verisign's highway robbery |
| 03:12.32 | jasonb | Tomcat does HTTPS quite well. It *may* not be faster than httpd stand-alone, but Tomcat's HTTPS is inded faster than httpd(HTTPS) --> Tomcat and back. |
| 03:13.13 | jasonb | npm: Ahh, client cert? |
| 03:14.12 | jasonb | npm: You should read my text in Tomcat: The Definitive Guide, 2nd Edition, Chapter 6 where I give step by step instructions on getting CLIENT-CERT auth set up and running on Tomcat stand-alone. |
| 03:15.06 | jasonb | It works great. |
| 03:15.24 | jasonb | knew ipssources.com sounded familiar for some reason. :) |
| 03:15.35 | npm | excellent. thanks for the reference... i'll lookup the examples |
| 03:15.44 | jasonb | npm: Good work on that, btw. |
| 03:16.12 | npm | thanks |
| 03:53.48 | Hellaenergy | jasonb, do you use awstats at all? |
| 04:15.30 | jasonb | Hellaenergy: I think I have downloaded and tinkered with it.. long ago. |
| 04:16.14 | Hellaenergy | what, if anything, do you use for log file crunching? |
| 04:17.18 | jasonb | Well, my work uses both yahoo and google analytics, plus LeadLander. But so far we don't process the access logs we save. |
| 04:18.16 | jasonb | Apparently, awstats has some vulnerabilities that are commonly scanned for when software scans a web site for vunlerabilities. |
| 04:18.38 | Hellaenergy | I wouldn't doubt it |
| 04:18.57 | jasonb | (whether new versions of awstats are still vulnerable in the same way(s), I don't know) |
| 04:19.10 | Hellaenergy | it is a perl cgi |
| 04:19.16 | jasonb | ahh. |
| 04:19.41 | jasonb | One could run it from Tomcat.. but you'd have to be pretty careful with that |
| 04:20.25 | Hellaenergy | how so? |
| 04:21.24 | Hellaenergy | I mean can you explain why |
| 04:24.05 | jasonb | CGI means you're spawning another process and running a program in it. If you have it set up so it can do that, it's potentially possible for a malicious user to use that in a clever way to gain access to something they're not supposed to have access to. |
| 04:24.39 | Hellaenergy | Oh yes that is the case with any server though |
| 04:24.55 | Hellaenergy | I thought tomcat was particularly sensitive though |
| 04:25.20 | Hellaenergy | or I thought that was what you were getting at |
| 04:25.26 | jasonb | Also, once you're running code outside the JVM, security rules change a bit, so you'd need to filter all sorts of user input to prevent all sorts of attacks that work in other languages.. like perl for instance. |
| 04:25.51 | Hellaenergy | oh yes good point |
| 04:26.28 | jasonb | I wrote some code to filter all user input in the form of request parameters, but there are other things to filter as well. And, I've left it up to the administrator to write some regular expressions of their own to filter for what they need to prevent. |
| 04:27.07 | Hellaenergy | Whats filtering? |
| 04:27.19 | jasonb | huh? |
| 04:28.40 | Hellaenergy | When you say you wrote some code that filters... |
| 04:28.47 | Hellaenergy | Where is this happening? |
| 04:30.07 | jasonb | I wrote a custom Tomcat Valve, and a custom Servlet Filter. You can use either one. They perform the same work. |
| 04:30.27 | jasonb | This is all detailed in Chapter 6. |
| 04:30.43 | Hellaenergy | Ah I'll check it out |
| 04:30.59 | Hellaenergy | I need to verse myself in Valves |
| 04:31.19 | jasonb | If you don't want to modify anything in webapps you're running, or if you can't, then you can use the Valve. If you have 1 webapp (or a small number of them), then you can just add a single filter to your web.xml and run the Filter. |
| 04:31.19 | Hellaenergy | There is so much I do not know :) |
| 04:31.44 | jasonb | Valves were invented (in Tomcat) before Filters were added to the Servlet API. |
| 04:31.54 | Hellaenergy | I have the advantage of starting from the begining here :) |
| 04:31.54 | jasonb | Valves were a sort of a prototype for what could be done. |
| 04:32.12 | jasonb | Valves are Tomcat specific, and Filters are servlet container implementation independent. |
| 04:32.29 | Hellaenergy | So going forward use Filters |
| 04:32.40 | jasonb | Filters can do most things that Valves can do. But, since Valves are Tomcat specific, Valves can more easily control Tomcat. |
| 04:32.40 | Hellaenergy | since that is portable in theory |
| 04:32.49 | jasonb | Filters are nearly always preferable. |
| 04:32.51 | Hellaenergy | hm... |
| 04:32.59 | Hellaenergy | good to know |
| 04:33.02 | jasonb | But, the way I look at it, they're both different things, each with their pros and cons. |
| 04:33.15 | jasonb | Valves run in Tomcat's own space. Filters run in the webapp space. |
| 04:33.31 | Hellaenergy | kinda like kernel vs user :) |
| 04:33.34 | jasonb | Yes. |
| 04:33.44 | jasonb | So, it really depends on what you need to do. |
| 04:33.45 | Hellaenergy | interesting |
| 04:33.59 | jasonb | And, it also depends on how Tomcat-specific you want the code to be. |
| 04:34.35 | jasonb | Most people choose to write strictly to the Servlet API, but it's almost always the case that they only run their code on one servlet container.. ever. |
| 04:34.57 | jasonb | So, in that case, it doesn't make much sense to fight adding any dependency on the servlet container you use. |
| 04:35.00 | Hellaenergy | Is that based on you personal exp? |
| 04:35.03 | jasonb | Yes. |
| 04:35.11 | jasonb | Your mileage may vary. :) |
| 04:35.16 | jasonb | (but probably won't) |
| 04:35.30 | Hellaenergy | Well if you sell a war |
| 04:35.42 | Hellaenergy | buyers always want what you don't provide |
| 04:35.51 | jasonb | If you sell a webapp, but you never test it on other servlet containers, it may not work there anyway. |
| 04:35.52 | Hellaenergy | such as WebSphere or WebLogic support |
| 04:36.08 | Hellaenergy | very ture |
| 04:36.12 | Hellaenergy | true |
| 04:36.39 | Hellaenergy | l lot of times you need to have specific configuration logic for each |
| 04:36.51 | jasonb | Yup. |
| 04:37.02 | Hellaenergy | That is what i've seen in fact |
| 04:37.41 | jasonb | So, you *can* write or use a Filter that just depends on the Servlet API, but only if you don't need to have more integrated control over the servlet container (web server) than Filters offer you. |
| 04:37.53 | Hellaenergy | So coding to the servlet container really isn't out of hand as long as you can manage it. |
| 04:38.01 | jasonb | Most of the time Filters work fine. |
| 04:38.10 | jasonb | Yes, right. |
| 04:38.28 | Hellaenergy | So are Valves an aspect of Tomcat that are focused on still? |
| 04:38.38 | jasonb | It's all a program inside the JVM.. as far as the JVM is concerned, there are no real borders to things.. it's one huge program. |
| 04:38.41 | Hellaenergy | Is there development being done with them in the base still? |
| 04:39.28 | Hellaenergy | Or is it a dieing feature? |
| 04:39.28 | jasonb | Since 5.5 or so, Valves haven't changed. Some of the Tomcat committers consider Valves deprecated in favor of Filters, but they don't get it. |
| 04:39.45 | Hellaenergy | Interesting |
| 04:39.59 | jasonb | One of them actually began marking Valves as deprecated until I spoke up about it. :) |
| 04:40.08 | Hellaenergy | If anyone should get it you would think they should |
| 04:40.21 | jasonb | Well, Craig was the one who invented Valves. |
| 04:40.30 | jasonb | It was a replacement for Tomcat 3 Interceptors. |
| 04:40.44 | Hellaenergy | Why the name Valve |
| 04:40.52 | jasonb | Remy supported it all, but doesn't appear to care about them. |
| 04:41.13 | jasonb | The name came as a play on the whole request processing "pipeline" idea. |
| 04:41.23 | jasonb | You have a pipe, and you have valves, that let some through. :) |
| 04:41.38 | Hellaenergy | makes sense |
| 04:41.47 | jasonb | It's a short word, and nobody else was using it for anything. |
| 04:42.22 | jasonb | Since Craig left the project, the others have maintained the Valve code, but they don't develop it further. |
| 04:42.39 | jasonb | Mainly, it's an interface, and if the interface changes, all implementations break (usually). |
| 04:43.08 | Hellaenergy | What happend to Craig? |
| 04:43.09 | jasonb | So, they've left that alone, mostly. It actually did change from 4.1 to 5.0 (or was it 5.0 to 5.5?) but it wasn't a real bad change. |
| 04:43.24 | jasonb | Craig works for Sun. |
| 04:43.44 | jasonb | Sun and the ASF had a falling out around the Tomcat 5.0 timeframe. |
| 04:44.02 | Hellaenergy | What to make way for Glassfish? |
| 04:44.02 | jasonb | I forget if I told you about that or not. |
| 04:44.11 | jasonb | Yes, he's been working on Glassfish. |
| 04:44.13 | Hellaenergy | I don't recall |
| 04:44.32 | jasonb | Glassfish's servlet container is a fork of Tomcat's codebase, with heavy modifications. |
| 04:44.36 | Hellaenergy | So Tomcat is no longer the implementation server for the specs? |
| 04:44.53 | jasonb | Right. It's no longer the reference implementation.. as of Tomcat 5.0. |
| 04:45.09 | jasonb | Actually, I don't remember if Tomcat 5.0 was or not, but 5.5 was not. |
| 04:45.25 | Hellaenergy | They should probably take that off the front page then :D |
| 04:45.36 | jasonb | Yes, they should. They don't want to. :) |
| 04:45.38 | Hellaenergy | Or alter the wording |
| 04:46.25 | Hellaenergy | That's not even right |
| 04:46.54 | Hellaenergy | Very misleading |
| 04:47.09 | Hellaenergy | So is Glassfish any good? |
| 04:47.15 | jasonb | The good news is: Tomcat is still, by far, the most popular servlet container implementation. |
| 04:47.33 | jasonb | Glassfish is probably good. They do have a good team of developers. |
| 04:47.54 | jasonb | But, the code is GPL'd. |
| 04:48.06 | Hellaenergy | lol |
| 04:48.26 | Hellaenergy | even sun gpl'd their java code |
| 04:48.27 | jasonb | Also, there's no Glassfish: The Definitive Guide. |
| 04:48.37 | jasonb | Yeah, it's sort of strange. |
| 04:49.11 | Hellaenergy | You should really put up an article on that |
| 04:49.24 | Hellaenergy | and make it public |
| 04:50.18 | jasonb | I wouldn't have much to lose at this point in doing that, but as time goes on, this is sort of all water under the bridge. :) |
| 04:50.47 | Hellaenergy | water under the bridge? how so? |
| 04:50.48 | jasonb | Also, lots of what I know is not exactly directly from the source. :) |
| 04:51.28 | Hellaenergy | Or just an article on your take on the GPL and Java |
| 04:51.32 | jasonb | Well, I want Sun and the ASF to get along. If they didn't before, for certain personal reasons, then that's bad, but after lots of time goes by it matters far less. |
| 04:52.16 | jasonb | I could indeed write an article about GPL and Java. I've strongly considered doing that on a number of occasions. |
| 04:52.43 | Hellaenergy | You would be doing us all a favor by doing that ;) |
| 04:52.45 | jasonb | One thing that would come out of that is: I'd have to do a bunch more research and know solid answers about things I've gathered, and that in itself would be enlightening. |
| 04:53.13 | Hellaenergy | You're already quite pasionate about it :) |
| 04:53.51 | jasonb | The main problem there is: if you're not actively listening in on the fire hose of discussion forums between the ASF and the FSF, you lose track of where everything stands, and then you're out of date and people will say you don't know what you're talking about (and it would be true). |
| 04:55.23 | jasonb | Something very interesting to note is: after all the discussion around Apache Harmony and the FSF, they have still not been able to "meet in the middle" somehow as they promised to do, and Harmony still includes *none* of the GPL'd Classpath source -- the Harmony guys had to reimplement all their own (duplicate effort, big time!). |
| 04:55.50 | jasonb | So, even after more than a year of discussion on how they could just do that, nobody really budged. |
| 04:56.02 | jasonb | (and that's exactly my point, that they won't) |
| 04:56.22 | jasonb | Each side has their reasons. |
| 04:56.36 | jasonb | And, both side's reasons make sense. |
| 04:56.40 | Hellaenergy | So what is the argumenting all about from what you've seen? |
| 04:57.16 | jasonb | It's multi-pronged. |
| 04:57.20 | Hellaenergy | Shit I forgot about Harmony |
| 04:57.34 | jasonb | Don't forget Harmony (nor the Alamo). |
| 04:57.45 | Hellaenergy | :D |
| 04:58.28 | jasonb | Mainly the disagreement seems to be around the ability to fork and close the source, plus other issues. |
| 04:58.48 | Hellaenergy | Why close the dang source? |
| 04:59.01 | jasonb | Companies often need to. |
| 04:59.24 | jasonb | Also, there is huge disagreement on what the viralness of the GPL means, exactly. |
| 04:59.36 | jasonb | (inside the JVM, for example) |
| 05:00.04 | jasonb | And, what the definition of "derivative work" should be.. in each language, in each situation. |
| 05:00.20 | jasonb | None of this stuff is simple. |
| 05:00.37 | Hellaenergy | Yes I see that |
| 05:00.53 | jasonb | And, it comes down to a sort of "party line" set of opinions. |
| 05:01.13 | jasonb | Each individual decides what they think about each issue, and then finds themselves in one camp or the other. |
| 05:01.27 | Hellaenergy | You could easily write a dissertation on this :) |
| 05:01.32 | jasonb | Of course! |
| 05:01.42 | jasonb | It's fascinating stuff. |
| 05:02.21 | Hellaenergy | it would be good historical documentation |
| 05:02.27 | Hellaenergy | you could get in the history books ;) |
| 05:02.59 | jasonb | Whoever writes about it, though, gets branded as being in one camp or the other, and then the writing is instantly assumed to be biased (it probably is). |
| 05:03.35 | jasonb | I'm actually not a member of either group, officially, but I do have opinions. :) |
| 05:03.56 | Hellaenergy | thats fair |
| 05:04.19 | jasonb | And, there are people who know far, far more about this than I do. |
| 05:04.47 | jasonb | There are plenty of reasons to feel unqualified to write about it. |
| 05:05.17 | Hellaenergy | Does it have to be a definitive take? |
| 05:05.28 | jasonb | No. |
| 05:06.01 | jasonb | It could be a "here's how this looks to me" text.. but that's a lot like a blog, and I don't really blog (even though it sounds fun). |
| 05:06.18 | Hellaenergy | I'd read it :) |
| 05:06.31 | jasonb | As I said, I've been tempted. |
| 05:07.30 | jasonb | For quite a while there I was hopeful that the FSF and ASF would somehow change their license text in whatever ways that would allow merging of GPL and ASF code, but I'm not hopeful of that anymore. |
| 05:07.40 | Hellaenergy | Let it all out jasonb, let it all out. |
| 05:07.45 | jasonb | heh |
| 05:08.31 | Hellaenergy | GPL is a buzz word now. |
| 05:09.15 | Hellaenergy | 99% of people don't know whats in it. |
| 05:09.31 | jasonb | It might be 99.99%. |
| 05:09.50 | jasonb | Nobody wants to read it. I'm not sure I blame them. |
| 05:10.07 | Hellaenergy | seriously you got to think about how many people actually have read any portion of it. |
| 05:10.09 | jasonb | It's like reading all of the fine print when you buy a car or a house. |
| 05:10.28 | Hellaenergy | nods |
| 05:11.34 | Hellaenergy | jasonb, do you use JSF? |
| 05:11.51 | jasonb | I don't. I haven't yet found a good reason to. |
| 05:11.53 | Hellaenergy | What is your take on that project? |
| 05:12.02 | Hellaenergy | ah |
| 05:12.14 | Hellaenergy | I just found out they have their own channel :) |
| 05:12.16 | jasonb | I think it's a mostly failed project. But, not entirely, since it's still being used.. a little. |
| 05:12.38 | Hellaenergy | there's a v 2 being worked on apparently |
| 05:12.52 | jasonb | I'd look at that. |
| 05:13.47 | Hellaenergy | http://blogs.sun.com/rlubke/entry/jsf_2_0_new_feature2 |
| 05:14.21 | Hellaenergy | Why do you say its a mostly failed proj? |
| 05:14.24 | jasonb | reads |
| 05:14.30 | Hellaenergy | Not much buzz? |
| 05:14.36 | jasonb | Well, few webapps use JSF. |
| 05:14.51 | jasonb | You don't hear much about it.. there aren't many web pages about it. |
| 05:14.58 | jasonb | etc. |
| 05:16.49 | Hellaenergy | The Glassfish folks documented some stuff: https://javaserverfaces.dev.java.net/users.html |
| 05:16.59 | Hellaenergy | Majarra is their project |
| 05:17.14 | Hellaenergy | BTW the channel is ##jsf |
| 05:19.38 | jasonb | There's also http://myfaces.apache.org |
| 05:20.19 | Hellaenergy | Cool I haven't seen that yet |
| 05:20.58 | Hellaenergy | Thanks |
| 05:23.32 | jasonb | That's an active project, from what I understand. |
| 05:23.43 | jasonb | or, set of projects. |
| 05:27.49 | Hellaenergy | I just asked if JSF is being used by a lot of people and kenpaulsen answered "Yes" :) |
| 05:27.59 | Hellaenergy | I think he works for sun |
| 05:28.19 | Hellaenergy | :) |
| 05:29.15 | jasonb | Yeah, consider the source. :) |
| 05:29.31 | jasonb | Also, "a lot" is a relative term. |
| 05:30.10 | Hellaenergy | He pointed me to the forums |
| 05:30.15 | Hellaenergy | http://forum.java.sun.com/forum.jspa?forumID=427&start=0 |
| 05:31.05 | Hellaenergy | He also (not suprisingly) said that MyFaces isn't as active as Mojarra |
| 05:34.30 | Hellaenergy | dude we got some Tomcat bashers over here :) Jump in :) |
| 05:35.28 | jasonb | No, that's alright. Let them bash Tomcat, while wishing theirs was more popular. :) |
| 05:36.02 | jasonb | We all owe Sun a lot, IMHO, for giving us Java. Oh, and for giving us Tomcat! |
| 05:36.28 | jasonb | You might want to remind them that Tomcat came from Sun. |
| 05:36.28 | Hellaenergy | They aren't really bashing |
| 05:36.35 | Hellaenergy | just promoting Glassfish |
| 05:36.45 | Hellaenergy | saying it has all the JSF stuff you need |
| 05:36.51 | Hellaenergy | and Tomcat doen't |
| 05:36.56 | jasonb | Tomcat isn't trying to. |
| 05:37.19 | jasonb | JSF is not mandatory, nor necessary. |
| 05:37.42 | jasonb | Tomcat is actually on a diet. :) |
| 05:38.04 | jasonb | It's trying not to be such a fat cat! |
| 05:40.24 | Hellaenergy | That is good |
| 05:40.31 | jasonb | yup. |
| 05:40.32 | Hellaenergy | I was going to ask you about that |
| 05:40.43 | Hellaenergy | How to trim it down to just what you need |
| 05:40.57 | Hellaenergy | I'm a minimalist when it comes to servers :) |
| 05:41.00 | jasonb | Well.. hmm. |
| 05:41.21 | jasonb | Why would you want to subset Tomcat? |
| 05:41.28 | jasonb | What benefit do you think you'd get? |
| 05:41.47 | jasonb | (you probably wouldn't) |
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| 05:42.34 | jasonb | Keep in mind that hard drive capacities get larger and larger each year, and also that CPUs get faster, and networks get faster. |
| 05:42.46 | nmatrix9 | anyone know how to submit code corrections to the tomcat team? |
| 05:42.57 | nmatrix9 | they have a example on their online docs which is borked |
| 05:43.14 | Hellaenergy | http://tomcat.apache.org/bugreport.html |
| 05:43.17 | jasonb | nmatrix9: Make a unified diff of your change, and submit an ASF Bugzilla bug and attach your diff to the bug. |
| 05:44.01 | nmatrix9 | I've heard used dif before but a "unified diff" that Iam not familiar with |
| 05:44.30 | nmatrix9 | jasonb, it's actually a example on setting up a datasource for postgresql |
| 05:45.51 | jasonb | nmatrix9: Unified diff can be generated with the command: diff -u (on Linux) |
| 05:46.10 | jasonb | nmatrix9: Also, svn diff is always a unified diff. |
| 05:47.12 | jasonb | looks for some ice cream |
| 05:47.27 | Hellaenergy | This is interesting: http://www.ilikespam.com/blog/glassfish-vs-tomcat |
| 05:47.50 | Hellaenergy | v |
| 05:50.03 | jasonb | neat! |
| 05:52.31 | jasonb | 2) is wrong. Tomcat has better scalability than Glassfish.. from the benchmarks I've seen. |
| 05:52.58 | Hellaenergy | Got those? |
| 05:53.39 | jasonb | No.. they were mainly tomcat-dev messages that flew by. |
| 05:53.55 | jasonb | It was APR vs. JIO vs. Grizzly, and Grizzly lost. |
| 05:53.59 | jasonb | (at the time) |
| 05:54.16 | jasonb | That was a while ago, but the Tomcat connectors are actively developed.. still.. and I'd bet so is Grizzly. |
| 05:54.54 | jasonb | On the "Deploy same webapp to multiple hosts" comparison, that actually would depend on what one means by that. |
| 05:56.06 | jasonb | He's just wrong about the "Each host can listen on a different port" comparison. Tomcat's should be a "Yes". |
| 05:57.24 | jasonb | "Each host can listen on an arbitrary combination of ports" is also wrong about what it says about Tomcat. |
| 05:58.21 | jasonb | He seems mostly clueful though. |
| 06:01.39 | Hellaenergy | Good to know the facts :) |
| 06:05.58 | jasonb | loves comparison matrices. |
| 06:06.25 | jasonb | Hellaenergy: Have you seen wikimatrix or cmsmatrix? |
| 06:06.32 | Hellaenergy | Seems like they are always vague and bias |
| 06:06.44 | Hellaenergy | no |
| 06:06.51 | Hellaenergy | checks em out |
| 06:07.03 | jasonb | Well, but it's also very nice to know who is judging these implementations in what ways. |
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| 06:07.21 | Hellaenergy | good point |
| 06:07.38 | Fivestar | hello all, i reference the tomcat docs and try it. i mkdir 'docs','src','web' direcotries follow the docs instruction at /docs/appdev/processes.html, then put html,jsp into web and put java servlet source file into src, then i run 'ant', 'ant install', to watch it in browser, everything is ok , then i try to modify some source files under my workspace dir. i run 'ant', but there's nothing happen when i |
| 06:07.38 | Fivestar | run 'ant reload', the browser shows the file content same as before. how to do ? [tomcat 6.0.x, Ant 1.7.0, my workspace dir: C:\ws\myapp, tomcat dir: C:\Program Files\Apache Software Foundation\Tomcat 6.0] |
| 06:08.45 | jasonb | Fivestar: Which web browser? |
| 06:11.19 | Fivestar | any one ? |
| 06:12.38 | jasonb | Hellaenergy: http://www.cmsmatrix.org and http://www.wikimatrix.org |
| 06:13.00 | jasonb | Hellaenergy: Tell me that those aren't helpful web sites. :) |
| 06:13.27 | Hellaenergy | That is a powerful idea |
| 06:13.37 | Hellaenergy | wish I would have thougt of it first :) |
| 06:16.41 | jasonb | When I saw those sites I was glad I *didn't* think of it first since it's already done and usable, and works well (and seems like it must have been a lot of work). |
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| 06:19.54 | Fivestar | ie |
| 06:19.55 | Fivestar | the file in the webapps/test is not reload ..not same as ws/myapp |
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| 06:23.25 | Hellaenergy | jasonb, You do have a point there :) |
| 06:23.52 | Hellaenergy | Fivestar, try stopping tomcat, removing the work dir and starting it again. |
| 06:38.35 | Hellaenergy | jasonb, what was that small fast DB you were telling me about a while back? Was it derby or javadb? |
| 06:39.17 | jasonb | Hellaenergy: There is hsqldb and now H2. |
| 06:39.46 | jasonb | Hellaenergy: H2 is newer, but may not be as mature as hsqldb yet. But, H2 is catching up. |
| 06:40.25 | Fivestar | Hellaenergy, yes , this manner is useful, but is there better one ? |
| 06:40.25 | Fivestar | but the tomcat docs says: just run 'ant reload' ? |
| 06:48.51 | Hellaenergy | jasonb, any comments on derby? |
| 06:49.43 | jasonb | Hellaenergy: It's far slower than hsqldb or H2. It comes with Java, but it doesn't seem like a better database impl to use. And, hsqldb has been open source for longer, I believe. |
| 06:49.57 | jasonb | It seems like there's more support for hsqldb. |
| 06:51.23 | Hellaenergy | What are the advantage to using hsqldb over mysql? |
| 07:04.20 | jasonb | Hellaenergy: hsqldb can significantly outperform mysql because hsqldb is extremely small code, and can run inside the same JVM as the application (no network IO would need to happen to use it, and communication happens all within the JVM in that case). |
| 07:05.16 | jasonb | Hellaenergy: hsqldb supports a few different runtime modes, one being "server" like mysql, another being embedded, and the only configuration difference in the application is the JDBC URL. |
| 07:06.20 | jasonb | Hellaenergy: See this page: http://h2database.com/html/frame.html?performance.html&main |
| 07:07.05 | jasonb | Hellaenergy: Also, hsqldb, H2, and even Derby are pure Java database implementations, and that's good for reasons you already know about. |
| 07:07.45 | jasonb | Hellaenergy: Oh, and hsqldb & H2 support a column data type that mysql doesn't support: java.lang.Object. |
| 07:07.46 | Hellaenergy | jasonb, is it useful for data that needs to be kept for long periods of time? |
| 07:08.11 | jasonb | Hellaenergy: It writes the data to disk just like any other relational database engine. So, yes. |
| 07:09.06 | jasonb | Also, stored procedures in hsqldb and H2 are written in Java. |
| 07:09.28 | jasonb | (in case anyone needs stored procedures) |
| 07:10.13 | jasonb | Also, H2 supports some "compatibility modes" that try to be compatible with mysql and postgres. |
| 07:10.24 | jasonb | I haven't tried those out yet. |
| 07:11.39 | Hellaenergy | Which one would you suggest using? hsqldb or h2? |
| 07:11.59 | Hellaenergy | his h2 the successor for hsqldb? |
| 07:13.14 | jasonb | Well, if you need maximum interoperability with lots of tools and frameworks and stuff, I'd say hsqldb. But, if you're not worried so much about that, then H2 because it's really the next generation and is better in some ways. Also, Hibernate, JPOX, and OpenJPA apparently support H2 already. |
| 07:13.48 | Hellaenergy | How is security? |
| 07:14.21 | jasonb | So hsqldb used to be called HypersonicSQL. The guy who originally wrote it named it that. Then, he stopped working on it at some point (I was already using it then, in 1999). But, some other developers kept maintaining it without him.. they renamed it "hsqldb" and put it on sourceforge. |
| 07:14.48 | jasonb | hsqldb continued without the original author.. who went on to work on other pure Java commercial databases, or at least I think that's what I read. |
| 07:15.10 | jasonb | hsqldb matured quite a bit, and lots of other projects supported it. |
| 07:15.25 | jasonb | Then, one day I found the H2 web site.. and it appeared it was pretty new. |
| 07:15.54 | jasonb | The guy who had initially written Hypersonic started from scratch and wrote a new one, learning from the mistakes he made on the original HypersonicSQL design. |
| 07:16.04 | jasonb | So now he's playing catch-up with hsqldb. |
| 07:16.12 | jasonb | They're separate projects. |
| 07:16.36 | jasonb | I don't know if anyone is helping him work on H2, but I think he can make something significant by himself (he did before). |
| 07:17.15 | jasonb | About security of these, I don't really know. It seems good from what I've seen, and I've never heard anyone complain that it is insecure somehow. |
| 07:17.19 | jasonb | (either of them) |
| 07:18.14 | Hellaenergy | Thanks again for the helpful insight :) |
| 07:18.22 | Hellaenergy | I should get to sleep |
| 07:18.26 | jasonb | For development, either hsqldb or H2 is ideal because they are SO fast and light. |
| 07:18.33 | jasonb | Okay. |
| 07:18.36 | Hellaenergy | Have a good night |
| 07:18.36 | jasonb | You're quite welcome. |
| 07:18.41 | jasonb | Have a nice night. |
| 07:18.41 | Hellaenergy | Yes seems that way |
| 07:19.06 | Hellaenergy | You too |
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| 10:35.57 | Slihp | heya people |
| 10:36.09 | Slihp | can anyone offer any help with eclipse and SOAP services? |
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| 10:55.33 | Slihp | is there anyone out there? |
| 11:02.03 | juanez | did you actually read the topic? |
| 11:07.54 | Oliber | they just dribbled into their boots and went away :/ |
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| 12:01.35 | ngong | just "apt-get install tomcat5.5" - it works, but does anybody know what this MBeanExceptiong thing likes to tell me? http://paste.debian.net/52155 |
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| 12:04.46 | kjkoster5489 | ngong: try using the distribution from Apache.org and not the apt-get package. |
| 12:05.13 | kjkoster5489 | re-packaged tomcats tend to be a pain in the butt |
| 12:05.53 | kjkoster5489 | In your case, there seems to be a read access problem on /usr/share/tomcat5.5-webapps/jsp-examples/WEB-INF/classes/logging.properties |
| 12:06.12 | kjkoster5489 | It's in the stack trace, line 119 or so |
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| 12:30.05 | ngong | kjkoster5489: ok, 6.0.16 works out of the box without error. It's a pitty. After a while you get used to aptitude and the like: wait and update for a bunch of packages, in theory consistent and working. |
| 12:30.56 | kjkoster5489 | Any reason not to use 6.0? |
| 12:31.28 | kjkoster5489 | I agree on the apt-thing. I'm on FreeBSD and I use the ports for everything, except tomcat and jboss and such. |
| 12:31.31 | ngong | kjkoster5489: the only one would be, because it is not Debian packaged |
| 12:32.07 | kjkoster5489 | Installation of Tomcat is trivial (unzip a zip and chmod 755 bin/*.sh) and you can move it anywhere. |
| 12:32.46 | kjkoster5489 | Plus, the re-packaged tomcats tend to be scattered all over the file system, making it harder for non-your-distro devs to help you root out bugs in the configuration. |
| 12:34.38 | ngong | kjkoster5489: "all over the file system" lacks in documentation, I agree. However, giving it a closer look the places are chosen wisely and it is too much work to do that manually. |
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| 12:44.34 | kjkoster5489 | ngong: I would just leave Tomcat as it is. |
| 12:44.48 | kjkoster5489 | But then, we all have our preferences. |
| 12:55.04 | ngong | kjkoster5489: that's what I'm just doing, too, and as I did for years. Now I found tomcat and jspwiki packaged in Debian. Imagine to setup a new laptop just by hitting "+" beside those two packages. Do not underestimate the difference to downloading 2 tar.gzs and configuring all the locations. |
| 12:57.30 | kjkoster5489 | Agreed. |
| 12:57.54 | kjkoster5489 | It's different for me, because I am a developer, not a sysadmin. |
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| 14:56.03 | jasonb | kjkoster5489: You would probably like my Tomcat RPM package then. It's all in one directory, and it works. But, it's not for freebsd. |
| 14:56.51 | kjkoster5489 | :-) |
| 14:57.03 | kjkoster5489 | Glad you preservd the dirs. |
| 14:57.19 | kjkoster5489 | How do yoy deal with the 'all config must be in /etc'--crowd? |
| 14:57.25 | kjkoster5489 | s/yuy/you/ |
| 15:00.53 | jasonb | kjkoster5489: Strategic symlinks. :) |
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| 15:01.49 | kjkoster5489 | So I have to be careful with blanket "no re-packaged tomcat" statements from now on. |
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| 15:11.35 | streetpc | hello |
| 15:12.54 | streetpc | as a good & docile tomcat newbie, I want to install 5.5 on a customized RedHat Entreprise 4 |
| 15:13.11 | streetpc | just to launch some WebApps |
| 15:13.51 | streetpc | I think I must get the "deployer" bin release |
| 15:14.15 | streetpc | but the README page isn't that clear for a non-native English speaker |
| 15:14.43 | streetpc | and I read "all non-embedded users download this" for the "base" version |
| 15:14.54 | streetpc | what do they ùean by "embeeded" ? |
| 15:14.58 | streetpc | mean* |
| 15:18.27 | kjkoster5489 | You're probably best off using a stock Tomcat from http://tomcat.apache.org/download-55.cgi (download the core .zip) |
| 15:19.45 | streetpc | kijkoster5489 > I'm already on this page |
| 15:20.10 | streetpc | I wanted to know the difference between the "deployer" and the "core" releases |
| 15:20.41 | kjkoster5489 | Dunno. I only use Core. |
| 15:22.01 | streetpc | and it is enough to get some WebServices running (if possible with auto-deploy) without having to install Apache ? |
| 15:22.51 | kjkoster5489 | Yes. |
| 15:23.46 | streetpc | cool |
| 15:23.50 | streetpc | thanks :) |
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| 15:35.12 | flashboss | hi |
| 15:35.16 | flashboss | how are you? |
| 15:50.53 | flashboss | who works with jspx? |
| 15:59.09 | *** join/#tomcat Hali_304 (n=Hali_303@dsl51B6CABF.pool.t-online.hu) |
| 16:29.12 | *** join/#tomcat prgrmr (n=prgrmr@bzq-79-176-160-107.red.bezeqint.net) |
| 16:32.43 | *** join/#tomcat Hellaenergy (n=Hellaene@c-75-72-155-242.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) |
| 16:56.07 | *** join/#tomcat inhiesies (n=inh@207.226.33.20) |
| 16:56.14 | inhiesies | ew! |
| 16:56.17 | *** part/#tomcat inhiesies (n=inh@207.226.33.20) |
| 17:53.44 | *** join/#tomcat rambo123 (n=rocky@59.94.96.99) |
| 18:43.38 | *** join/#tomcat keith80403 (n=keith804@71-208-207-165.hlrn.qwest.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 18:59.22 | *** join/#tomcat streetpc (n=adrien@per92-3-82-224-242-177.fbx.proxad.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 18:59.22 | *** join/#tomcat jorgenhg (n=jorgenhg@user.skolelinux.no) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 18:59.22 | *** join/#tomcat lyken_ (n=dc@majesticgecko.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 18:59.22 | *** join/#tomcat teite (i=teite@trough.maeh.org) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 18:59.38 | *** join/#tomcat Infinito_ (n=argos@200-140-66-14.gnace701.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br) |
| 19:25.05 | *** join/#tomcat kjkoster5489 (n=kjkoster@kjkoster.org) |
| 19:43.13 | *** join/#tomcat Infinito_ (n=argos@200-140-66-14.gnace701.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br) |
| 20:15.26 | *** join/#tomcat que (n=a4akb@62.215.156.215) |
| 20:36.04 | *** part/#tomcat rambo123 (n=rocky@59.94.96.99) |
| 21:54.54 | *** part/#tomcat flashboss (n=lstancap@62.123.101.197) |
| 22:16.14 | *** join/#tomcat nmatrix9_ (n=nmatrix9@bas17-toronto12-1096795916.dsl.bell.ca) |
| 22:39.53 | *** part/#tomcat Hali_304 (n=Hali_303@dsl51B6CABF.pool.t-online.hu) |
| 22:53.22 | *** join/#tomcat jasonb (n=jasonb@75.144.23.117) |