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| 00:30.59 | JamesMcG | hello mikael |
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| 00:42.31 | bigsanta | hELLO jAMES! |
| 00:42.40 | JamesMcG_ | Hi |
| 00:43.07 | bigsanta | I was thinking about calling you lately and check how everything is going |
| 00:43.11 | JamesMcG_ | I'm trying to crash read the tikiwiki manual |
| 00:43.24 | JamesMcG_ | Going well, been a little busy lately |
| 00:43.45 | bigsanta | That is a big project I believe. Especially as half of it is nit written yet! |
| 00:44.05 | JamesMcG_ | Spent about 2 months working on a new version of the Sustainable Society directory |
| 00:44.22 | JamesMcG_ | Only got started reading the manual today, onyl page 65 of 350 |
| 00:44.47 | bigsanta | What is the adress to thesustainabke society directory? |
| 00:45.12 | bigsanta | So I can watch your result. |
| 00:45.21 | JamesMcG_ | www.sustainable-society.co.uk/ssphp is the new version - still some adim work before it goes live |
| 00:45.29 | bigsanta | BTW, how do I acss the server form the Internet? |
| 00:46.12 | JamesMcG_ | your server should be avilable as nornia.dyndns.org |
| 00:46.36 | JamesMcG_ | I sent you an email with the login for the sustainable-society.co.uk website, you will need the admin.php page to login |
| 00:48.05 | bigsanta | Great, Seems like you did lots of work. Hoe someone also will ake the time to read it! |
| 00:49.14 | bigsanta | The problem with putting up a website is to convince the newcomers that it is yhe worth the time and effort to stay and conrinue reading |
| 00:49.29 | JamesMcG | Part of the idea is that the new system will make it alot easier to keep updated with new links |
| 00:49.49 | JamesMcG | the website is an old one, www.sustainable-society.co.uk is the HTML only version |
| 00:50.26 | JamesMcG | Francesca has been running it for several years now, but it was a pain to update links manually in the HTML |
| 00:52.09 | JamesMcG | One of the main things in a website is to have useful content |
| 00:52.43 | bigsanta | Yes, it has to be concise and useful, no bla.bla.bla |
| 00:52.48 | JamesMcG | Most of my work recently has been to automate the maintainance of the site |
| 00:52.58 | bigsanta | Aha? |
| 00:52.59 | JamesMcG | Check out the site, there isn't much bla.bla.bla |
| 00:53.04 | JamesMcG | huh??? |
| 00:53.24 | bigsanta | Looks like very little, especially to be UK based! |
| 00:53.52 | bigsanta | I obviously have some reading to do! |
| 00:54.09 | bigsanta | I see you are stll in contact with our mutual friend Jitendra. |
| 00:54.09 | JamesMcG | The ssphp directory is the new version, but I havn't imported all the data - only the links and not the books or events |
| 00:55.01 | JamesMcG | Francesca execanged a few emails recently, but nothing much |
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| 01:01.53 | bigsanta | I cannot connect to http://nornia.dyndns.org |
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| 01:04.23 | bigsanta | I was just thinking that maybe we can make better use of the server in your place. |
| 01:04.32 | bigsanta | What do you think? |
| 01:04.37 | JamesMcG__ | what where you thinking |
| 01:04.48 | bigsanta | Maintaining the old software seems to not work anyway |
| 01:05.24 | bigsanta | Mayve we can use it as a normal server were we can uload Tiki sites, have websites, e.mail etd, |
| 01:05.43 | bigsanta | etc. |
| 01:06.07 | JamesMcG | Thats possible, not sure if it would be best to do a clean install on the server first though |
| 01:06.31 | bigsanta | I believe it just a waste to spend energy on somehing that no.one use anyway |
| 01:07.31 | bigsanta | I delegate my technical vote to you, but I have more use of a normal server than a non-functioning NetConference Plus server |
| 01:08.38 | bigsanta | Clean Install is fine forme, although it would be interesting to have a CD backup for historical reasons |
| 01:08.47 | JamesMcG | I still need to find a way to do a decent backup |
| 01:09.35 | bigsanta | You send me a gile with 4 meh of database backup every day, did you know that? |
| 01:09.46 | bigsanta | 4 mB |
| 01:10.26 | JamesMcG | My linux experence is with Gentoo (which is what I have on my own manchine), but slackware or debian are also doable |
| 01:10.31 | JamesMcG | a gile??? |
| 01:10.44 | bigsanta | I do so many spelling errors when I ly down in the bed and type..... |
| 01:10.59 | bigsanta | file |
| 01:11.15 | JamesMcG | No I didn't know I sent you a backup file everyday |
| 01:11.16 | bigsanta | f and g are close.... |
| 01:11.39 | bigsanta | I can send it back to you if you wish.... |
| 01:11.52 | JamesMcG | LOL |
| 01:11.56 | JamesMcG | :-) |
| 01:13.34 | bigsanta | Now you have one of them soon! |
| 01:14.45 | bigsanta | I am at a hotel in oslo, on my way to Gothenburg, where I will meet the best lawyer firmin Sweden who decided to helpme for free tokick the ass of the Swedish health government |
| 01:15.05 | JamesMcG | Go kick ass |
| 01:15.15 | bigsanta | I wan the first round completely n court,and now it is payback time........ |
| 01:15.33 | JamesMcG | whats involved in the first round |
| 01:15.41 | JamesMcG | is that where they decide guilt |
| 01:15.47 | bigsanta | They even doit for free... |
| 01:15.54 | JamesMcG | or is it the pre-trial phase |
| 01:16.07 | JamesMcG | Free is always good |
| 01:16.14 | JamesMcG | must be a high profile case |
| 01:16.20 | bigsanta | In the first round, I got completely freed fromall accusatiosn of malpeactice |
| 01:16.46 | JamesMcG | that must be a weight off your shoulders |
| 01:16.57 | bigsanta | Now it is my timje to sew them fordestroying my careeer, and the lives of hundreds of thousnds of swedish patients |
| 01:17.24 | bigsanta | This is a really big case........ |
| 01:17.25 | JamesMcG | now its their turn to stand trial for malpractice :-) |
| 01:17.40 | bigsanta | Yes! feels good!! |
| 01:18.37 | bigsanta | There are only two options. |
| 01:18.48 | bigsanta | 1 They cannot read = not good |
| 01:18.58 | bigsanta | 2. Thet are corrupted = not good |
| 01:19.07 | JamesMcG | cannot read ??? |
| 01:20.21 | bigsanta | Well I have presented more than 100 scientific papers, hundreds of patient cases proving that I am right, and they still are not eveb interested, while they still have to present their first piece of evidence |
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| 01:21.15 | bigsanta | If you can read, you must get interested after reading this material |
| 01:22.15 | JamesMcG__ | which material ??? (sorry I'm missing some of the context of the case) |
| 01:22.24 | bigsanta | Gettig sleepy. ave to take an early train to Gotheburg later today |
| 01:22.42 | bigsanta | Well I have presented more than 100 scientific papers, hundreds of patient cases proving that I am right, and they stil |
| 01:22.42 | JamesMcG__ | Fran will be calling me to bed soon as well :-) |
| 01:23.00 | bigsanta | Give her a hug from me! |
| 01:23.24 | JamesMcG__ | will do, a big santa sized hug !!! :-) |
| 01:23.37 | bigsanta | Good night! |
| 01:23.45 | bigsanta | :-) |
| 01:27.49 | JamesMcG_AFK | see ya Mickael |
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| 11:25.09 | qopi | olisb: nice re-work of the doc |
| 11:25.19 | olisb | ;) |
| 11:25.41 | qopi | your sentences are a bit long in someplaces (like they often are) |
| 11:25.51 | qopi | but i'll give it an edit this evening :) |
| 11:27.49 | qopi | where we mention linux, wikipedia, the second superpower, movement of movements etc |
| 11:27.57 | qopi | indymedia |
| 11:28.00 | qopi | etc. |
| 11:29.51 | qopi | and, when talking to Co-ops UK we should keep pointing out the "voluntary OPEN membership" is the FIRST principles |
| 11:30.16 | qopi | how many Co-ops do you know that you could actually get involved with becoming a full-time worker? |
| 11:30.20 | qopi | not many i don't think |
| 11:30.34 | qopi | some consumer co-ops lke the phone co-op |
| 11:30.38 | qopi | but what else? |
| 11:34.41 | qopi | olisb: http://www.ecademy.com/module.php?mod=club&op=forum&c=1930&t=209923#endm |
| 11:35.26 | qopi | i'm prob gonna meet Anders this weekend (through Chris Macrae) |
| 11:35.54 | qopi | gonna convince him to be The Open Co-op Sweden |
| 11:35.57 | qopi | ;) |
| 11:38.02 | qopi | (if I think he's up to it ;) ) |
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| 14:02.04 | garyalex | hi qopi olisb |
| 14:11.15 | qopi | hi garyalex, can't chat now i'm afriad |
| 14:11.23 | qopi | busy cleaning my mother's house |
| 14:11.38 | qopi | but will read anything you write later :) |
| 14:11.41 | garyalex | OK, I'm just emailing you and Olisb about his latest draft of the 2 pager. |
| 14:11.41 | qopi | cya... |
| 14:11.53 | qopi | ok, look forward to reading it |
| 14:42.34 | olisb | hi garyalex |
| 14:42.48 | garyalex | hi olisb |
| 14:42.54 | garyalex | just emailing you. |
| 14:42.59 | olisb | ok |
| 14:43.15 | garyalex | Here's the PS: |
| 14:43.17 | garyalex | P.S. I just went through your document, making comments throughout. Then, when I went to save it, Microsoft Word crashed. It does that all the time for me. Please tell me what you think of OpenOffice, even in its very limited Max OSX version. :( |
| 14:43.52 | olisb | i havent managed to boot up openoffice yet |
| 14:46.07 | olisb | right, u dont like it! |
| 14:47.56 | olisb | go ahead with your version then, perhaps its best i dont come to the meeting as we may end up presnting mixed visions |
| 14:48.41 | olisb | i disagree with most of your points and you clealry disagree with mine |
| 14:48.47 | garyalex | I would prefer that we come to agreement. |
| 14:49.01 | olisb | this does not seem simple |
| 14:49.17 | olisb | you want CSPs, i dont think they figgure yet |
| 14:49.24 | olisb | i see land as important u dont |
| 14:49.56 | olisb | we can debate and present alternative visions forever, but nothing will get done |
| 14:50.12 | garyalex | I can't believe that after all this time our visions are so different. |
| 14:50.22 | olisb | beleive it |
| 14:50.33 | garyalex | when you did those slide shows I was clear that we were in close agreement. |
| 15:12.02 | qopi | garyalex: it is a pity you lost your comments. any chance you could go through it again? |
| 15:12.24 | qopi | if so, i'd be happy to try and make a version that captures the essense of both |
| 15:12.43 | garyalex | i'm on the phone with oli |
| 15:12.50 | qopi | ok |
| 15:12.59 | garyalex | have recovered the comments |
| 15:13.08 | qopi | garyalex: that is good news! |
| 15:13.15 | qopi | send them over... |
| 15:15.27 | qopi | olisb: we all want CSPs I think |
| 15:15.49 | qopi | and the working groups that make them up for all be co-operative open orgs |
| 15:16.30 | olisb | sorry qopi, bit fed up of debating this now, tempted to say 'whatever...' |
| 15:16.34 | olisb | catch u l8r |
| 15:16.36 | qopi | garyalex: how are we do build a sustainable world without sustainable management of land? |
| 15:16.38 | garyalex | OK, I've emailed the recovered document to you both. |
| 15:16.42 | qopi | olisb: aii |
| 15:16.48 | qopi | garyalex: will take a look at it later |
| 15:17.21 | garyalex | In the longer term, I agree that land is crucial. Also, much different governments. |
| 15:17.48 | garyalex | I just don't see either of those as easy early steps. As Mamading says, we need to pick the low hanging fruit. |
| 15:18.18 | garyalex | While keeping our overall vision up there as a pointer to where we are going. |
| 15:18.29 | qopi | i think we need to make it clear that sustainable land management is part of our vision |
| 15:18.33 | garyalex | It's easy to oppose, hard to see what the alternatives are. |
| 15:18.38 | qopi | and outline what small steps we are taking now |
| 15:18.43 | qopi | in order to get there |
| 15:18.55 | garyalex | On land, what do you see as the first small steps? |
| 15:19.15 | qopi | explicitly mentioning it in our vision |
| 15:19.40 | qopi | and saying that we are going to pull together all those who share our vision to buy/obtain land |
| 15:19.41 | garyalex | I take it you mean something more than organic farming? |
| 15:20.01 | qopi | building ecological homes and offices |
| 15:20.23 | qopi | that is what a CSP is in my eyes |
| 15:20.26 | garyalex | I understand the importance of having premises for co-ordinating communities. Do you think owning them is needed? |
| 15:20.36 | qopi | garyalex: absolutely |
| 15:20.48 | qopi | how else we will remove final pressures? |
| 15:20.58 | garyalex | financial? |
| 15:21.01 | qopi | rent? |
| 15:21.09 | garyalex | mortgages? |
| 15:21.10 | qopi | v high rent at that |
| 15:22.20 | qopi | garyalex: we are trying build a how new economic system |
| 15:22.37 | garyalex | I certainly like the idea of owning land. I'm just daunted by the sums of money needed and the planning constraints on its use. |
| 15:22.44 | qopi | new forms of land ownership and mutual money sysetms form the basis |
| 15:22.56 | qopi | of a new economy |
| 15:23.12 | qopi | well, those to things together with co-operaitve open organisations |
| 15:23.21 | qopi | self-organising to meet community defined needs |
| 15:24.08 | garyalex | Can you give me an example, say in London, of how that might get started? |
| 15:24.23 | garyalex | People jointly raising money to buy urban properties? |
| 15:25.12 | garyalex | Perhaps like my Portugal project, where 65 people put in money to buy a piece of land? |
| 15:30.57 | garyalex | qopi are you still there? |
| 15:31.39 | qopi | garyalex: i've got to pop out for a while |
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| 15:31.46 | tomb | yop |
| 15:31.51 | qopi | but yes, people jointly raising money |
| 15:32.04 | qopi | to buy 491 Gallery, for example |
| 15:32.37 | qopi | or any of the other neglected but revived by communities buildinga |
| 15:32.58 | qopi | or a project like coin street community builders (oxo tower etc) |
| 15:33.09 | qopi | who got that land of the council for £1 |
| 15:33.11 | garyalex | qopi, are you still planning to go to Manchester on Friday? Oli isn't sure any more. |
| 15:33.30 | qopi | and built housing co-ops and social enterprises etc |
| 15:33.37 | qopi | garyalex: yes, though i have booked my ticket |
| 15:33.54 | garyalex | I'm certainly happy to support any group doing that kind of thing, in any way we can. |
| 15:34.12 | garyalex | have/haven;t? |
| 15:34.21 | qopi | haven't |
| 15:34.26 | qopi | i will do this eve |
| 15:38.09 | garyalex | i'm off now for a while. |
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| 22:00.16 | qopi | hello salfield |
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| 23:29.17 | salfield | hello qopi and garyalex |
| 23:29.28 | garyalex | hi salfield |
| 23:30.12 | garyalex | hey tom, have you been in on any of this business of the 2 page summary of the open co-op? |
| 23:30.25 | salfield | hi gary was talking to josef earlier |
| 23:30.31 | garyalex | And what we say on Friday to Phone Coop and Coops uk |
| 23:30.32 | salfield | and quite a lot of things |
| 23:30.44 | garyalex | have you seen my doc and olis? |
| 23:31.05 | salfield | Gary, I feel your presentation has its place, I havent seen olisb's yet |
| 23:31.11 | salfield | and dont have time at the moment |
| 23:31.32 | garyalex | Any chance of looking tomorrow? I'll send it to you now. |
| 23:31.34 | salfield | but I think we need to be quite hard headed about what it is we actually do |
| 23:31.39 | salfield | okay |
| 23:31.51 | garyalex | meaning? |
| 23:32.03 | salfield | and I dont feel your document delivered that |
| 23:32.14 | garyalex | I've just sent you Oli's |
| 23:32.30 | salfield | I agree with it as a philosophical motivator |
| 23:32.32 | garyalex | I'll have a chance to work on it tomorrow if I get more comments. |
| 23:32.42 | salfield | but think we need to start talking business to people |
| 23:32.58 | salfield | I had one specific comment |
| 23:33.14 | garyalex | yes? |
| 23:33.25 | salfield | which is that this business about "competition ending at the barrier of the open coop" |
| 23:33.37 | salfield | firstly this is ambigous |
| 23:33.37 | garyalex | I've removed that. |
| 23:33.42 | salfield | okay |
| 23:33.44 | salfield | cool |
| 23:33.57 | garyalex | at oli's suggestion |
| 23:34.18 | garyalex | and he quoted you too. |
| 23:34.24 | salfield | okay I'll have a look at your latest version and oli's tomorrow |
| 23:34.47 | salfield | Gary, on the business plan |
| 23:34.48 | qopi | garyalex: it was actually me that quoted tom :) |
| 23:34.54 | garyalex | thanks qopi. I'll have a look |
| 23:35.12 | salfield | that makes sense since I only spoke to qopi about it |
| 23:35.20 | garyalex | salfield you say "we need to start talking business to people" can you be specific? |
| 23:35.32 | garyalex | sorry qopi. |
| 23:36.03 | salfield | well first we need a water tight and agreed business plan/ development path |
| 23:36.15 | salfield | and I was saying to qopi |
| 23:36.35 | salfield | if we are using viable systems approach |
| 23:36.44 | salfield | we should first analyse our skills set |
| 23:36.59 | salfield | so, I take a look on our website at our team |
| 23:37.07 | salfield | (not a complete listing) |
| 23:37.32 | salfield | and I see that we have in our "team" a lecturer at a business school |
| 23:37.56 | garyalex | qopi: thanks for the diagram. It follows from your London Open Co-op page, which I like and have commented on. |
| 23:38.02 | salfield | and a man who has set up and worked in some of the UKs most successful cooperatives |
| 23:38.06 | garyalex | Yes, Angela. |
| 23:38.11 | garyalex | Yes, Jon |
| 23:38.20 | garyalex | Both busy people. |
| 23:38.29 | garyalex | working on a Regional Organic Network |
| 23:38.56 | salfield | and that neither qopi olisb or even phenny have ever had a conversation, or and email, or any other contact with them |
| 23:39.16 | salfield | people are busy with what they are in contact with |
| 23:39.30 | garyalex | I tried to phone them yesterday, hoping that they might come to Manchester on Friday. |
| 23:39.43 | garyalex | just so they could meet some more of us. |
| 23:40.08 | garyalex | I left messages and will try again tomorrow. |
| 23:40.08 | salfield | garyalex: if these people are to remain on our team, whilst not ever having said a word to the core project implementing team |
| 23:40.38 | salfield | I want a simple email introduction...is that an unreasonable thing |
| 23:40.47 | garyalex | Point taken. I'll try to convince them to be active in the conversations. |
| 23:40.49 | salfield | then we can involve them in this community |
| 23:41.05 | salfield | cool :) |
| 23:41.21 | garyalex | A simple email list would suit them better than IRC though. They don't have broadband. |
| 23:41.40 | salfield | I think they can really help us shape up our business angle |
| 23:41.48 | garyalex | Our discussions are so diffuse. |
| 23:42.06 | garyalex | Perhaps they can. |
| 23:42.16 | salfield | no this is quite key to dealing with the ambuguities |
| 23:42.27 | salfield | in our vision and practices |
| 23:42.37 | garyalex | I'm a little disappointed not to have heard from Chris Cook yet with a draft of the partnership agreement. |
| 23:42.59 | salfield | me too, nor evangineer on the groups or tiki-move |
| 23:43.34 | garyalex | we seem to move in small isolated spurts |
| 23:43.53 | salfield | maybe this will cheer some people in the channel up? http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~mss/Papers/PonderToolkit.pdf |
| 23:44.02 | salfield | it cheered me up :) |
| 23:44.18 | qopi | garyalex: i don't see any comments on the London Open Co-op page |
| 23:44.37 | qopi | http://open.coop/London+Open+Co-op |
| 23:44.40 | salfield | I love it when I find out that something that I have been planning has already been implemented |
| 23:46.02 | garyalex | salfield: at first glance it isn't a lively easy read ;) |
| 23:46.29 | garyalex | qopi: sorry, I remember now. Somehow when I went to save it, it got lost!!! :( |
| 23:46.34 | garyalex | I'll re-do it. |
| 23:47.04 | garyalex | that was just before we started this bit of irc chat, so I got distracted :( |
| 23:47.58 | qopi | ok :) |
| 23:50.23 | qopi | salfield: you had a look at the diagram yet? (and/or http://open.coop/London+Open+Co-op) |
| 23:53.42 | garyalex | qopi: I've more or less re-done it now. |
| 23:55.21 | garyalex | I'm off to bed now. Busy day tomorrow. First I'm off to East Bergholt to see my newly born granddaughter, then to Milton Keynes. Hope to do more work on the 2 pager there. |
| 23:55.25 | *** join/#ud salfield (~tom@host-83-146-27-239.bulldogdsl.com) |
| 23:55.47 | garyalex | goodnite folks! |
| 23:58.12 | qopi | salfield: re-done what? the diagram? |