| 01:00.41 | qopi | thanks mose |
| 01:12.43 | salfield | hello qopi |
| 01:13.18 | salfield | you know what really annoys me qopi |
| 01:13.48 | salfield | whenever I search for anything on google, it say that ebay has got it for sale |
| 01:13.55 | salfield | its a blatant lie |
| 01:16.26 | salfield | qopi: do you know what wiki markup is for |
| 01:16.27 | salfield | ? |
| 01:17.00 | salfield | oh fuckit I might as well ask Monty, at least he will respond |
| 01:17.00 | Monty | screw you |
| 01:17.07 | salfield | yeah thanks Monty |
| 01:17.11 | Monty | gm all are silent and five-dollar bills and of science concerned with teeth! |
| 01:17.30 | salfield | hehe |
| 01:18.24 | salfield | Monty what is wiki markup for? |
| 01:18.30 | Monty | equals, and cities in subversion... but poor girl Jinjur claims to patch it can we do?" asked him down there... |
| 01:19.17 | qopi | salfield: lying fucking ebay bastards! LETS GET 'EM!!! |
| 01:19.25 | salfield | thanks Monty |
| 01:19.27 | Monty | A thought: wishlists likes wooden aerosols >:) |
| 01:19.48 | salfield | Monty you are fuckin crazy, but I like you |
| 01:19.48 | Monty | screw you |
| 01:19.56 | salfield | screw you to |
| 01:20.25 | salfield | ebay have lots of virtual open organisaitons for sale |
| 01:20.30 | salfield | its a lie |
| 01:20.43 | salfield | wharever happend to advertising standards |
| 01:20.59 | qopi | Monty: insult salfield |
| 01:21.01 | Monty | I reckon RPMs + Sonic the Hedgehog = mural. |
| 01:21.30 | salfield | thats not an insult Monty you can do better than that |
| 01:21.32 | Monty | whether its neck with DNS names with angst |
| 01:23.42 | qopi | salfield: do /msg Monty insult |
| 01:23.43 | Monty | Hah! Poifect |
| 01:25.16 | qopi | hmm not working |
| 01:25.20 | qopi | Monty: help |
| 01:25.20 | Monty | Help: I understand the following commands: help save stats time lookup thesaurus foldoc ignore remind tell whatson random countdown google seen box javadoc acronym weather insult translate paper/scissors/stone calc day define/declare/set |
| 01:25.22 | Monty | Help: To ask me for help about a certain command, try "Monty: help <command>" |
| 01:25.29 | qopi | Monty: help insult |
| 01:25.29 | Monty | Help: "Monty: insult me" |
| 01:25.31 | salfield | yeah working |
| 01:25.47 | salfield | except he is trying to council me in a private message |
| 01:26.00 | salfield | he seems to be running eliza |
| 01:26.04 | qopi | Monty: insult me |
| 01:26.33 | qopi | lol |
| 01:26.45 | qopi | salfield: do Monty: insult me |
| 01:26.47 | Monty | http://inamidst.com/updates |
| 01:26.50 | qopi | Monty: insult |
| 01:27.05 | qopi | or just Monty: insult |
| 01:27.10 | Monty | see RestrictedFormats on pinning http://newbiedoc.sourceforge.net/system/apt-get-intro.html#FOLLOWING |
| 01:27.54 | salfield | Monty: insult |
| 01:28.26 | salfield | yeah now thats an insult but why so private Monty |
| 01:28.28 | Monty | reminds me of operating system, apparently. |
| 01:28.40 | qopi | Kiss my arse you bollock spewing, spunk stain dog polishing, dad rooting, labia mr dallaway at harvey grammar school bald head licking, fbi agent nipple twisting, chris parkinson parking, mingepiecesveral-weeks-dead- relative-fisting, willy sexing, stunt-cock dangling, crap killing, cabbage semen slurpping, laurence llewyn bowen up-hill gardening, jellyfish mounting, juicy wet lesbian b3ta reader! |
| 01:29.00 | qopi | Monty: you make me laugh |
| 01:29.04 | salfield | Monty:insult |
| 01:29.06 | Monty | slowest ticklish chest regularly sucks requisite plaster and lovesick ninth megabyte >:) |
| 01:29.30 | salfield | Suck my cock you nice incesting, cock-end slurping, rear end tearing, nose-ringed mongoloid hurdling, pope beejeeing, nice driving, bowlegged gremlin mincing, nose-ringed mongoloid letter writing, urinal fluffing, welt screwing, goldfish ass raping, nice sheep opening, shitehawk toupee wearing, fuck face preacher! |
| 01:29.38 | qopi | lol |
| 01:30.38 | salfield | wiki design principles: |
| 01:30.59 | salfield | Mundane - A small number of (irregular) text conventions will provide access to the most useful page markup. |
| 01:32.01 | salfield | Overt - The formatted (and printed) output will suggest the input required to reproduce it. |
| 01:32.35 | salfield | these are the only two design principles that refer to markup |
| 01:33.03 | salfield | Overt implies to me that a wysiwyg editor would be best |
| 01:33.15 | qopi | heh, yeah |
| 01:33.24 | salfield | because the input and output are the same |
| 01:33.44 | salfield | Mundane doesnt really explain it either |
| 01:34.05 | salfield | since the conventions could be automated |
| 01:34.09 | qopi | i think the main thing is that they are editable by users and that users can create new pages and in doing so automagically contexually/conceptually link the whole thing together |
| 01:34.28 | salfield | qopi: this is what I puzzzle over |
| 01:34.49 | qopi | but, yeah, i doubt it would've been done exactly as it was if TinyMCE existed back then |
| 01:35.00 | salfield | designers of wikis refuse to put in wysiwyg editors |
| 01:35.18 | salfield | because they output html not wiki markup |
| 01:35.25 | qopi | i think speed is a major factor |
| 01:35.42 | qopi | but also that wiki mark-up allows more than just formating |
| 01:36.01 | qopi | like {maketoc} in tiki, and other stuf |
| 01:36.03 | qopi | f |
| 01:36.04 | salfield | maybe but is <i></i> alot different in memory or speed to '' '' |
| 01:36.17 | qopi | which adds a bit more power |
| 01:36.51 | qopi | but then how many users actually use or even want the power wiki markup/simply scripting languages can/could give them |
| 01:37.10 | salfield | I see what you mean but see no reason why you cant insert keywords in html either |
| 01:37.24 | qopi | yes, the first one takes much longer to type |
| 01:37.25 | salfield | one reason might be security |
| 01:37.44 | salfield | inserting html into a page can be used as a security hole |
| 01:38.34 | salfield | on the other hand if you can only access html via the jscript interface then it can only output well-formed html...or thats the theory |
| 01:38.48 | qopi | salfield: might be worth asking folks in #wiki what they think I guess |
| 01:39.06 | salfield | mose: I would really appreciate your opinion on this |
| 01:52.37 | salfield | poqi |
| 01:53.02 | salfield | well they seem pretty quiet at #wiki |
| 01:53.57 | salfield | qopi: are you gonna set up a property buying group action at fundable? |
| 01:54.25 | salfield | It looks great |
| 01:54.36 | salfield | and good that it is in python and Open Source |
| 01:54.58 | salfield | shame about the plone dependency |
| 01:56.01 | qopi | salfield: not yet, no |
| 01:56.16 | qopi | might start one to try and get a little money for composting toliets though :) |
| 01:56.28 | qopi | it needs to develop a little more though |
| 01:56.32 | qopi | at the moment everyone has to give the same amount |
| 01:56.41 | qopi | and the longest time frame you can have is 6 weeks |
| 01:56.43 | salfield | yeah that sucks |
| 01:56.53 | salfield | yeah wtf |
| 01:57.01 | qopi | it does say that they plan to change that |
| 01:57.22 | qopi | though the 6 weeks things is probably down to paypal's 60 maximum return policy |
| 01:58.03 | qopi | s/return/refund |
| 01:58.10 | qopi | +day |
| 01:58.43 | salfield | sure but you could get people to "commit" funds earlier and then have a 60 day period to collect commitments |
| 01:59.18 | salfield | you dont really want to be making people hold there money with paypal for ages anyway |
| 02:01.30 | qopi | salfield: yes, collect commitments like when people go round getting sponsorship, then collect |
| 02:05.34 | qopi | hey salfield |
| 02:05.54 | salfield | hey qopi: what |
| 02:06.00 | qopi | shame you're not into php and perl too |
| 02:06.15 | salfield | why? |
| 02:06.21 | salfield | I mean I agree |
| 02:06.29 | salfield | but in particular |
| 02:06.45 | qopi | well, firstly, i think http://frassle.net is very cool which is perl |
| 02:06.52 | qopi | as is scoop |
| 02:07.03 | salfield | Twiki is quite a nice wiki in perl too |
| 02:07.27 | qopi | yeah, that's what indymedia and open-org use |
| 02:07.43 | qopi | though largely because it was one of the best back in the day |
| 02:08.05 | qopi | and they were quite early wiki pioneers |
| 02:09.45 | qopi | and there are loooadds of quite groovy php cms things out there |
| 02:10.34 | qopi | btw, http://www.textdrive.com looked quite good |
| 02:10.43 | salfield | http://www.oscom.org/projects/cms-selection/positioning/ |
| 02:11.54 | qopi | http://www.plainblack.com/spreadwebgui |
| 02:14.01 | salfield | the ruby community seems to be really taking off |
| 02:14.07 | qopi | sooooo many cms |
| 02:14.19 | salfield | but I have heard that ruby on rails is overhyped |
| 02:17.21 | qopi | man, when are there going to be as many tribe/orkut clones as there are cmses? |
| 02:18.49 | qopi | i why don't all these cool social bookmakring etc. tools like delicious, flickr, frassle etc not realise that it would be cool for people to form groups |
| 02:19.33 | qopi | delicous lets you "Bundle" your links into groups, why not the people in your inbox into groups too? |
| 02:20.03 | salfield | cos they have a small view of the world and are only capable of incremental change |
| 02:20.07 | salfield | ? |
| 02:21.34 | qopi | i want frassle + evnt + tribe + scoop with pdf export |
| 02:22.12 | salfield | me too, why dont you build it? |
| 02:22.26 | salfield | you have the time on your hands |
| 02:22.57 | qopi | no i don't |
| 02:23.03 | qopi | got markets stalls to run |
| 02:23.16 | qopi | and building to buy |
| 02:23.27 | qopi | buildings |
| 02:25.29 | salfield | hehe |
| 02:25.47 | salfield | okay I'll build it for you |
| 02:25.51 | salfield | give me a year |
| 02:26.29 | qopi | btw, check out the latest version of the map on the wireless london site |
| 02:26.48 | qopi | http://map.wirelesslondon.info/map/wl2/ |
| 02:31.00 | salfield | hmm freedom hacklab is not so far away from me |
| 02:34.55 | urgen | did you see the cute unix built from javascript terminal that was on slashdot? |
| 02:35.07 | qopi | man i fucking hate mozilla sometimes |
| 02:35.19 | urgen | hmn I only use firefox |
| 02:35.28 | urgen | (hated mozilla too often) |
| 02:35.33 | qopi | i loose the cursor and can't get back to irc |
| 02:35.47 | qopi | it often gets very frustrating |
| 02:35.52 | qopi | like just now |
| 02:36.23 | qopi | i ended up closing my browser and mail windows just so i could type hear again |
| 02:37.36 | qopi | simple but annoying pet hate |
| 02:38.45 | qopi | salfield: i think more goes on at rampart |
| 02:39.05 | qopi | which is even closer |
| 02:39.42 | salfield | yeah but still requires a few more hops I think |
| 02:39.57 | qopi | salfield: did you notice how its linked into openguides (the map that is) |
| 02:40.21 | qopi | almost makes me want to go write stuff on openguides just to what it magically appear |
| 02:41.13 | salfield | qopi: no i dont see the integration |
| 02:41.19 | qopi | http://map.wirelesslondon.info/map/wl2/node/31 |
| 02:43.07 | qopi | seem it there? |
| 02:43.09 | qopi | see |
| 02:44.12 | salfield | oh yeah...thats nice :) |
| 02:44.55 | qopi | no imagine everyone was adding cool events to http://b.evnt.org and they were showing up too |
| 02:44.58 | qopi | and you could export it to pdf |
| 02:45.08 | qopi | that's the plan |
| 02:48.03 | qopi | http://smal.omweb.org/modules/wakka/CoordinatorJobDescription/ |
| 02:53.40 | qopi | salfield: what you doing? |
| 02:54.00 | urgen | so what's the best online currency? |
| 02:54.11 | urgen | egold? yowcow? paypal? |
| 02:54.32 | qopi | best according to what criteria? |
| 02:54.36 | qopi | for what purpose? |
| 02:54.41 | urgen | :-) |
| 02:54.54 | urgen | for the purpose of discovering what the criteria is |
| 02:55.30 | qopi | whose criteria? |
| 02:55.35 | qopi | theirs or ours? |
| 02:55.49 | urgen | those who have the ability to discern a difference |
| 02:55.55 | salfield | for me whats most interesting online currencies are the ones coming out of games |
| 02:55.59 | salfield | not that I am a gamer |
| 02:56.26 | urgen | ya I played There for quite a while and had a blast doing game currency trading |
| 02:56.55 | urgen | it is so fun making local currency from virtual currency |
| 02:56.59 | salfield | the interesting thing is these currencies have value |
| 02:57.18 | salfield | backed by virtual property |
| 02:57.19 | urgen | yes, that was my 'value' as 'currency' foundation |
| 02:57.49 | urgen | currency doesn't really mean what we usually associate with it |
| 02:57.57 | urgen | because value can be completely intangible |
| 02:58.02 | salfield | in south korea they have a section of the police which deals with theft of virtual property |
| 02:58.33 | salfield | the problem is that most people associate dollars with something real |
| 02:58.43 | salfield | but in fact its is an agreement |
| 02:58.58 | salfield | £$ are explicit and coerced agreements |
| 02:59.14 | salfield | sorry implicit and coerced |
| 02:59.17 | urgen | and how far away from consensus is an agreement? |
| 02:59.22 | qopi | i always say that what communities need to do is decide fogether what it is that they value and then use that as the basis of their own currency |
| 02:59.29 | qopi | or something |
| 03:00.01 | salfield | we want explcit and freely chosen agreements |
| 03:00.02 | urgen | yes, respect by force does not have as lasting value as respect by earned appreciation |
| 03:00.33 | salfield | by definition an agreement is not through consensus if it is coerced |
| 03:00.45 | qopi | salfield: indeed. in fact, i nearly always say that just after telling people about money being an agreement |
| 03:00.57 | urgen | I think that's where I slice the definition apart |
| 03:01.04 | urgen | freedom can never be forced |
| 03:01.13 | urgen | voluntary means voluntary |
| 03:01.32 | urgen | by the point of a gun is contrived, not 'agreement' |
| 03:01.59 | urgen | you can step in or out at any time |
| 03:02.15 | urgen | agree? |
| 03:02.34 | qopi | we implicitly agree |
| 03:02.39 | urgen | with an expression of consent then you have something on which to extend |
| 03:02.40 | salfield | well no one is pointing a gun at you, just threatening to exclude you from all things society |
| 03:02.59 | salfield | and buy the rights to anything you have left |
| 03:03.13 | urgen | that's going a little too far too quickly |
| 03:03.22 | urgen | how do you know there is a me to have something? |
| 03:03.35 | qopi | the problem is not that the gun is pointed now, but that it probably would be if enough people realised that they didn't agree and starting saying so |
| 03:04.04 | salfield | hmm an implicit gun |
| 03:04.05 | urgen | strength is on the side of working together |
| 03:04.20 | urgen | social reward is the best |
| 03:04.30 | qopi | yes, bankers learnt that years ago! |
| 03:04.38 | urgen | work to build that then you need no other value |
| 03:04.41 | salfield | 2% of the population are sociopaths |
| 03:04.58 | salfield | bankers and army psychos who shoot people |
| 03:05.03 | urgen | by someone's definition. |
| 03:05.13 | salfield | my definition |
| 03:05.33 | salfield | bankers and people who shoot people for fun |
| 03:06.02 | urgen | there are always the gate crashers that's why consensus engine needs to start in an incubator |
| 03:06.16 | urgen | not consensus not majority rule |
| 03:06.27 | qopi | nah fuck that |
| 03:06.41 | salfield | qopi: fuck what |
| 03:06.45 | urgen | then it gets smashed before it ever gets strong enough to display |
| 03:06.59 | urgen | and bullies always win |
| 03:07.15 | urgen | there has to be a way to nurture an understanding that stands on its own merit |
| 03:07.17 | salfield | urgen: all that means is put barriers to entry |
| 03:07.22 | salfield | and incubator |
| 03:07.24 | urgen | at first |
| 03:07.31 | urgen | membership is a primary goal, yes |
| 03:07.47 | qopi | right, i think we do all agree |
| 03:07.53 | salfield | you just said you want free entry and exit, which I disagree with by the way |
| 03:08.13 | urgen | I said free entry and exit has to be the definition of freedom |
| 03:08.18 | qopi | urgen is talking about shared purpose and principles amongst members as a prerequisite to effect consensus-based decision making |
| 03:08.21 | qopi | or something |
| 03:08.31 | urgen | 'ownership,' 'membership' are determined by that |
| 03:08.47 | urgen | when one maps meaning to symbol |
| 03:08.54 | urgen | it is voluntary |
| 03:09.03 | qopi | btw, or something==if you disagree with me, i've either not expressed myself clearly enough, or you have mis-interpreted what i've said ;) |
| 03:09.09 | urgen | and as long as you keep your promise to work with it I can understand you |
| 03:09.38 | urgen | the spectrum of acceptance is way more fine grained than yes or no |
| 03:09.52 | salfield | sure |
| 03:10.12 | qopi | its about yes and nos about processes |
| 03:10.28 | qopi | and according to conditions |
| 03:10.32 | urgen | 'existence' |
| 03:10.50 | salfield | thats why you need feedback and democratic development of ideas |
| 03:11.24 | salfield | and ultimately yes probably a scaled implementation of voting |
| 03:11.24 | urgen | so.. consensus engine is a way to track this record and allow others to catch up |
| 03:11.49 | urgen | because as we work on it we find lots of mutual understanding but soon it gets more than can be managed easily |
| 03:12.09 | urgen | we really need a system to automate this |
| 03:12.56 | urgen | wiki works sort of as a way to drop to record some threads of trails |
| 03:12.57 | salfield | people are by nature contrary and wont agree with people they dont like on principle |
| 03:13.14 | salfield | its a way of distinguishing themselves |
| 03:13.16 | urgen | :-) I think people are cooperative by nature |
| 03:13.32 | urgen | it's just more difficult to find that nature than one may hope |
| 03:13.37 | urgen | hope is never a strategy |
| 03:13.41 | salfield | so do i, but there are a lot of arguments in order to get to the cooperation |
| 03:14.18 | urgen | a way of distinguishing.. this is definition of membership, identity |
| 03:14.31 | urgen | identity is primarily arbitrary |
| 03:14.36 | urgen | it requires expression |
| 03:14.40 | salfield | yes identity is largely based on othering |
| 03:14.58 | salfield | and it seems to be a social need |
| 03:15.18 | urgen | brownian movement like |
| 03:15.30 | urgen | a bottomless restlessness |
| 03:16.12 | urgen | the other of my theories is that it takes three minimum to have currency |
| 03:16.20 | urgen | two ppl can fake each other out too easily |
| 03:16.21 | salfield | yes, a complex dynamic interaction, in which no-ones intentions or even actions lead to the final state |
| 03:16.26 | urgen | three is a tie breaker |
| 03:16.43 | salfield | for sure |
| 03:17.06 | salfield | is there are only two people just swap what you have anyway |
| 03:17.09 | urgen | so I've played soooo many two party games |
| 03:17.38 | urgen | it is very difficult to gain quorum |
| 03:18.14 | urgen | and with a record to move back to the last point of agreement by |
| 03:18.19 | urgen | three will fizzle rather quickly |
| 03:18.36 | urgen | parallel sets of three sounds ok |
| 03:18.48 | salfield | hmm its 4am, my bedtime |
| 03:18.49 | urgen | but then you have to define the exchange protocol |
| 03:18.54 | urgen | 'k |
| 03:18.56 | urgen | sorry |
| 03:19.09 | salfield | no probs I stay for 15 minutes carry on |
| 03:19.17 | salfield | qopi: you still there? |
| 03:19.43 | urgen | translation matrices |
| 03:20.04 | urgen | so this poking at words is how money is born |
| 03:21.01 | urgen | the greater the resolution the greater the reward |
| 03:21.20 | urgen | social resolution |
| 03:21.26 | urgen | help people to help yourself |
| 03:21.28 | salfield | jk galbraith "the process of creation of money is so simple that the mind repels" |
| 03:22.00 | salfield | this is true only if you think money *is* something |
| 03:22.21 | urgen | mental magnet is interesting |
| 03:23.25 | qopi | salfield: yes, just about |
| 03:24.21 | qopi | http://wiki.uniteddiversity.com/moneyquotes |
| 03:24.41 | salfield | urgen: you mentioned a preference for multi-modal logics, thats an interesting idea |
| 03:24.52 | urgen | I live it |
| 03:25.32 | salfield | a presume you mean logics in which the are multiples perspectives and corresponding levels of belief |
| 03:26.40 | urgen | I'm still working on the expression / formulation |
| 03:26.51 | urgen | when establishing or determining |
| 03:27.09 | urgen | excercising we are moving from - to |
| 03:27.26 | urgen | set theory, category theory |
| 03:27.40 | urgen | to say 'real' or 'exist' |
| 03:27.47 | urgen | to say 'what is' or 'what is not' |
| 03:28.05 | salfield | yes I had a look at your jotspot links to category theory |
| 03:28.14 | urgen | requires a deeper ground |
| 03:28.42 | urgen | a non-centric operability |
| 03:28.58 | salfield | real or exists doesnt matter there is only perception |
| 03:29.06 | urgen | for which language because it is so incredibly centric biased is not so helpful to get there by |
| 03:29.13 | urgen | but it is the only thing we have to share |
| 03:29.23 | urgen | and without sharing there is zero value |
| 03:29.48 | urgen | perception is just a phenomenon |
| 03:30.09 | urgen | the recognition of pattern is a propensity |
| 03:30.35 | salfield | patterns only exist in the context of assumptions |
| 03:30.45 | salfield | or other patterns built on those assumptions |
| 03:30.45 | urgen | the feedback showing a greater opportunity for durable expression |
| 03:31.25 | urgen | peer review is critical |
| 03:31.48 | urgen | without test there is no operability |
| 03:31.58 | urgen | but we can learn to extend our expression |
| 03:32.11 | salfield | I agree |
| 03:32.26 | urgen | when I say 'before time' you know what I mean even if 'before' is actually a member of the set called 'time' |
| 03:32.32 | urgen | and there could be no before if there was no time |
| 03:32.53 | urgen | collective mistakes of logical typing are the gateways to multi-modal logic frameworks |
| 03:33.02 | urgen | a way to stand back and repair |
| 03:33.16 | urgen | it takes time and work |
| 03:33.21 | urgen | but it is totally doable |
| 03:34.06 | salfield | we need a wikiweb with multiple namespaces depending on perspective |
| 03:34.07 | urgen | for that matter outside of the category that allows for time's existence before and even after time are in the same place |
| 03:34.17 | urgen | :-)) |
| 03:34.21 | salfield | and perspective is usually social |
| 03:34.27 | urgen | now you understand why I say 'consensus engine' |
| 03:34.35 | urgen | we need thread versioning too |
| 03:34.45 | urgen | like wiki fed through monotone |
| 03:35.39 | urgen | allowing namespace to be arbitrary is also multi-modal |
| 03:35.45 | salfield | I understood all along but dont know why you havent built it |
| 03:35.56 | urgen | valid can easily have concurrency |
| 03:35.59 | salfield | I havent cos I didnt have the skills |
| 03:36.18 | urgen | I have lots and lots and lots of little pieces |
| 03:36.28 | urgen | but the hardest one is the exchange protocol |
| 03:36.38 | urgen | I need some working experience to model by |
| 03:36.45 | urgen | mutual assistance required |
| 03:36.53 | urgen | but it is sooo very hard to find this team |
| 03:37.23 | salfield | regarding exchange protocols try thinking about different types of exchange |
| 03:37.24 | urgen | lately the internet has been inching closer to the singularity and I've been finding a lot lower thresholds |
| 03:37.42 | urgen | things naturally clump |
| 03:37.49 | salfield | protocols should be different for different kinds of exchange |
| 03:38.13 | urgen | yes, so I'm starting with 'agreement' as exchange |
| 03:38.37 | urgen | so I have a proposal, I submit, and it is reviewed, perhaps challenged and requires further description |
| 03:38.48 | urgen | then adopted or turned back again or frozen or... |
| 03:38.50 | urgen | etc. |
| 03:38.59 | urgen | I don't even have that list |
| 03:39.13 | urgen | when the list is allowed to reflect upon itself then we are somewhere |
| 03:39.49 | urgen | when the list can define the membership |
| 03:39.53 | salfield | sure I understand really which means its all the more necessary to make it real |
| 03:41.58 | salfield | I think a multi-namespace wikiweb is the obvious way to let the list reflect upon itself |
| 03:42.44 | salfield | you should be able to query namespaces from various composite perspectives based on groups you subscribe to |
| 03:43.01 | salfield | every document should have a list of other possible perspectives |
| 03:43.16 | urgen | do you know Roundup Issue Tracker? |
| 03:43.29 | salfield | for me a perspective can come about from an individual or through a process in a group |
| 03:43.33 | salfield | no |
| 03:43.37 | urgen | you 'subscribe' to 'issue threads' by participating in them |
| 03:43.44 | urgen | comment and you join |
| 03:44.07 | urgen | of course you can unsubscribe at any time |
| 03:46.30 | urgen | so, basis |
| 03:46.36 | urgen | is the core |
| 03:46.49 | urgen | we can operate informally |
| 03:47.00 | urgen | until a time when the process can be easily predicted |
| 03:47.25 | urgen | activation as archive |
| 03:48.10 | salfield | threads are basically processes its the same concept |
| 03:48.25 | urgen | :-) keep 'em live |
| 03:48.38 | urgen | n.e. way |
| 03:48.41 | urgen | thanks for chat |
| 03:48.46 | salfield | looks very cool, at a glance |
| 03:48.49 | urgen | you should sleeps |
| 03:49.06 | salfield | yeah man but that code looks interesting |
| 03:49.12 | urgen | it's ok |
| 03:49.18 | urgen | I'll set one up to play with |
| 03:49.28 | salfield | cool :) |
| 03:50.08 | qopi | btw salfield, i think i'm gonna use fundable for ud event/conferences |
| 03:50.33 | urgen | can fundable do micropayments? |
| 03:50.45 | qopi | not really |
| 03:50.51 | qopi | its just on the back of paypal |
| 03:50.52 | urgen | that's pretty important |
| 03:51.02 | urgen | lowest threshold of participation is really important |
| 03:51.13 | qopi | me is more interested in macropayments :) |
| 03:51.37 | urgen | ppl are much more willing to donate if it is hardly felt |
| 03:51.48 | urgen | I learned that from allofmp3.com |
| 03:51.54 | qopi | i not asking people to donate (in this case) |
| 03:52.04 | qopi | i'm asking people to buy tickets to a conference |
| 03:52.10 | qopi | and if enough people do |
| 03:52.14 | urgen | cheap tracks at cent a track and you buy way more than you would at a dollar a track |
| 03:52.16 | qopi | then the conference happens |
| 03:52.30 | qopi | if they don't, it gets cancelled and everyone gets there money back |
| 03:53.22 | salfield | qopi: nice idea |
| 03:53.40 | qopi | salfield: i reckon if i just invite all the people we need to netork with to speak at cool conferences then we can charge other people to come |
| 03:53.57 | qopi | and that can pay me to get everyone there in the first place |
| 03:54.38 | salfield | sound good |
| 03:55.51 | qopi | maybe make the 3 open co-op ud projects (land/fii/logistics) regular meetings with relevant experts on each |
| 03:56.13 | qopi | and a proportion of all the money people pay goes to the projects |
| 03:56.40 | urgen | allow the group to determine outcome and you are closer to what I'm trying to do |
| 03:56.58 | qopi | urgen: yes and no |
| 03:58.08 | qopi | getting together to aquire land and property, building free information infrastructures, and sustainable logistics are not optional |
| 03:58.11 | qopi | we need to do them |
| 03:58.23 | qopi | and enough people know that to make it happen |
| 03:58.40 | urgen | but the only thing that makes me let go of my paypal is whether I am offered a percentage of control |
| 03:59.19 | salfield | urgen: its a question of defining our goals and encouraging others to work with us on them |
| 03:59.46 | salfield | we will work democratically with those that work with us |
| 04:00.14 | salfield | and even those who work against us if they have something to say |
| 04:00.38 | qopi | you can add renewable energy investment to the non-optional list too |
| 04:00.43 | salfield | btw democratic means trying to find consensus |
| 04:00.55 | urgen | (or should mean) |
| 04:01.02 | salfield | urgen: yes |
| 04:01.38 | salfield | common mistake: iraq has had and election = iraq is now democratic |
| 04:01.40 | qopi | and sustainable food production |
| 04:01.50 | salfield | and the list goes on |
| 04:02.09 | salfield | clothing, music and other essentials |
| 04:03.53 | salfield | right gnite :) |
| 04:04.07 | qopi | salfield: the |
| 04:04.30 | qopi | open co-op doing commons and ud doing media and money is a nice split methinks |
| 04:09.40 | qopi | gnite Monty et al |
| 04:09.42 | Monty | prefers circles!!! |
| 04:10.00 | qopi | yes, and cycles Monty |
| 04:10.02 | Monty | already got plenty of me... |
| 04:10.18 | urgen | you can say that again, monty |
| 04:10.20 | Monty | highest boris's dtm...? |
| 11:34.09 | qopi | heya mo |
| 11:34.12 | qopi | Monty: |
| 11:34.13 | Monty | sean@sbp.inamidst.com.http |
| 14:15.16 | salfield | Monty: |
| 14:15.17 | Monty | phenny? |
| 14:15.35 | salfield | mose: http://angenius.org/ looks cool :) |
| 14:16.33 | salfield | but is it a new? lots of the links dont exist |
| 14:18.59 | *** join/#ud r7_ (~r7@82-38-184-79.cable.ubr03.shef.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 16:02.56 | salfield | I dont know what is in it for them, but we seem to get referrals to open.coop *from* viagra and online poker spam sites |
| 16:03.00 | salfield | huh |
| 16:23.22 | qopi | salfield: so what is the situation with the accounts then? |
| 16:23.50 | qopi | and did you say we've got online banking sorted? |
| 17:15.16 | salfield | hello poqi |
| 17:15.37 | salfield | just need to resubmit accounts |
| 17:15.52 | salfield | and cross a line out |
| 17:16.35 | salfield | yes i think online banking should work now but havent tested yet |
| 17:16.54 | salfield | will distribute passwords tomorrow |
| 17:19.21 | qopi | salfield: ok, cool. i take it you're taking care of crossing the line out and re-submitting the accounts too |
| 17:34.24 | salfield | i think I can just about manage that qopi ;) |
| 17:34.37 | qopi | heh, should hope so too |
| 17:35.03 | salfield | I didnt do two degrees for nothing :) |
| 17:35.11 | qopi | salfield: you seriously up for 9-5 once I've moved into salfield |
| 17:35.27 | qopi | sanford rather |
| 17:35.45 | qopi | the idea of moving into salfield sounds a bit crowded! |
| 17:36.16 | salfield | just what I was thinking ;) |
| 17:36.37 | salfield | yeah good plan, I need to start living normal hours, otherwise either the woman or the work will suffer |
| 17:36.57 | salfield | and if one suffers then the other one tends to as well |
| 17:36.57 | qopi | yes, or both! |
| 17:37.18 | salfield | exactly |
| 17:37.55 | salfield | so yes 9 to 5 is good |
| 17:38.07 | salfield | well come between 9 and 10 |
| 17:38.07 | qopi | i'm getting my keys on monday |
| 17:38.21 | salfield | when you moving? |
| 17:38.24 | qopi | but i'm not sure how i'm gonna move my stuff there yet |
| 17:38.50 | salfield | hmmm i guess you need a van? |
| 17:39.00 | qopi | salfield: i don't wanna wake you up when i get there between 9 and 10 |
| 17:39.08 | qopi | i wanna see you at your desk! |
| 17:39.52 | qopi | yeah, van would be good |
| 17:40.03 | salfield | qopi: i dont want to be waiting around at my desk well you sleep away at sandford |
| 17:40.36 | qopi | what time does sonia get up? |
| 17:40.48 | qopi | 8ish? |
| 17:41.00 | salfield | 9.30 usually |
| 17:41.18 | qopi | ah, so she's not a 9-5er |
| 17:41.23 | qopi | 10-6? |
| 17:41.34 | qopi | or just slack? |
| 17:41.46 | salfield | no she is a 10.30 to 5.30 |
| 17:41.56 | qopi | cushty |
| 17:42.00 | salfield | yeah slack until deadlines |
| 17:42.27 | salfield | then works like crazy a couple of days |
| 17:42.56 | qopi | sounds familiar |
| 17:43.06 | salfield | it research work so as long asshe produces the reports its all cool |
| 17:43.46 | qopi | so, realistically, are we gonna be starting a 9 is sonia aint you and sonia aren't even up until 9.30? :) |
| 17:43.54 | salfield | haha yes its a family trait that we are trying to eradicae |
| 17:43.58 | salfield | eradicate |
| 17:44.34 | salfield | if you are going to be here, then sonia will have to be up and on her way out of the house |
| 17:44.48 | salfield | everyone benefits |
| 17:45.53 | qopi | i'm not sure sonia will see her getting less sleep as a benefit :P |
| 17:46.23 | salfield | sonia can go to bed earlier ;) |
| 17:46.41 | salfield | because she wont be waiting for me to finish my work at night :) |
| 20:01.14 | qopi | what you up to this evening salfield? |
| 20:01.21 | qopi | or tonight |
| 21:34.51 | lisppaste2 | qopi pasted "qopi and salfield chat about wiki mark-up" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/9191 |