| 00:13.57 | FuMan | well |
| 00:14.04 | FuMan | would it be related to how i got everything |
| 00:14.14 | FuMan | bootstrapped old preware, installed alpha |
| 00:14.24 | FuMan | uninstall old, uninstalled package manager |
| 00:14.59 | *** join/#webos-internals gabe__ (~ae9bb32c@gateway/web/freenode/x-iqjvffggthyzwfcs) |
| 00:15.06 | gabe__ | hi |
| 00:15.29 | zsoc | hello webchatter |
| 00:16.18 | gabe__ | it says package manager service isn't running but I installed it |
| 00:16.31 | *** join/#webos-internals halfhalo_T400 (~halfhalo_@cpe-76-95-96-74.socal.res.rr.com) |
| 00:16.42 | FuMan | and sbromwich, its not even tryin |
| 00:16.47 | zsoc | gabe__: i'm guessing it's not running |
| 00:16.53 | gabe__ | I can't get preware to run |
| 00:17.07 | sbromwich | FuMan: check the feed isn't disabled, try readding it? |
| 00:17.15 | zsoc | gabe__: what method did you use to install package manager service? |
| 00:17.16 | FuMan | well, the feed isn't even in the list |
| 00:17.21 | FuMan | so its not disabled |
| 00:17.29 | FuMan | and yeah, i can readd it, but i dont know the addresses for them |
| 00:17.59 | *** part/#webos-internals gollyzila (~gollyzila@173.150.241.114) |
| 00:19.22 | sbromwich | I'm just rebooting mine at the moment, I'll see if I can't grab them off it for you once it's done |
| 00:21.55 | sbromwich | palm-webos-device ipkg # cat palm-web-updates.conf palm-beta-updates.conf webos-internals.conf | awk {'print $3'} |
| 00:21.55 | sbromwich | http://ipkg.preware.org/feeds/palm-web-updates |
| 00:21.55 | sbromwich | http://ipkg.preware.org/feeds/palm-beta-updates |
| 00:21.55 | sbromwich | http://ipkg.preware.org/feeds/webos-internals/all |
| 00:21.55 | sbromwich | http://ipkg.preware.org/feeds/webos-internals/armv7 |
| 00:21.59 | sbromwich | there you go |
| 00:22.01 | FuMan | yeah, thank you |
| 00:22.09 | FuMan | i actually just went to http://ipkg.preware.org/feeds/ |
| 00:22.11 | FuMan | and grabbed em |
| 00:22.14 | FuMan | oooooh shit that didnt work |
| 00:22.16 | sbromwich | that works too ;-) |
| 00:22.19 | sbromwich | or not? |
| 00:22.20 | FuMan | tons of errors |
| 00:22.28 | sbromwich | what sort? |
| 00:22.31 | FuMan | hrm, they all have 2 http |
| 00:22.33 | FuMan | musta doubled it |
| 00:22.41 | rwhitby | FuMan: uninstalling Package Manager Service deleted the feeds |
| 00:22.50 | rwhitby | FuMan: reinstall Preware Alpha |
| 00:23.20 | rwhitby | I need to push an updated to Package Manager Service so it doesn't delete the feed files on removal |
| 00:24.37 | FuMan | damn, and you can't edit custom feeds once you add them... |
| 00:24.43 | FuMan | and hrm, thats kinda strange |
| 00:24.56 | FuMan | feed urls have http built in |
| 00:25.08 | FuMan | but if you don't delete it, then you get doublehttp when you are trying to use them |
| 00:25.21 | sbromwich | um. yes? |
| 00:25.41 | sbromwich | the http:// is there as a convenience for people who are typing feeds in on the keyboard, I would hazard |
| 00:25.47 | FuMan | yeah |
| 00:25.48 | FuMan | but if you use them |
| 00:25.55 | FuMan | as in, i just add ipkg blah |
| 00:26.08 | FuMan | then, when it goes to pull the feed, it pulls http://http://ipkg |
| 00:26.11 | sbromwich | uh-huh... |
| 00:26.32 | sbromwich | wow, that *does* sound odd |
| 00:26.48 | sbromwich | I thought you were just cut and pasting the http://ipkg url straight in |
| 00:27.08 | FuMan | well, that would cause the same issue i imagine |
| 00:27.23 | sbromwich | let me try it here for SNG |
| 00:27.26 | FuMan | im gonna try deleting the http, adding just ipkg, and see if it adds a single one |
| 00:29.20 | sbromwich | can't replicate |
| 00:29.31 | FuMan | on the alpha? |
| 00:29.58 | FuMan | ill try again |
| 00:30.09 | sbromwich | I put www.fop.ns.ca/test/ in as the address and the URL requested according to my logs was: |
| 00:30.12 | FuMan | and resintalling the package manager service overwrote the feeds, so i got em all back |
| 00:30.12 | sbromwich | 10.2.1.20 - - [04/Apr/2010:21:29:14 -0300] "GET /test/Packages.gz HTTP/1.1" 404 332 "-" "Wget" |
| 00:30.38 | sbromwich | this is alpha 0.9.56 |
| 00:31.51 | FuMan | well hell |
| 00:32.12 | FuMan | i just readded one, using the prepopulated http://, and it worked as aspected |
| 00:32.30 | FuMan | but also, this time, unlike last time, i got a popup prompt, asking me to confirm the feed add with the red/green buttons |
| 00:32.39 | FuMan | maybe i was running a different alpha or something |
| 00:32.56 | sbromwich | did you follow the exact same procedure to add a feed? |
| 00:33.09 | FuMan | yep |
| 00:33.15 | FuMan | well, no i guess not |
| 00:33.17 | FuMan | i did optware that time |
| 00:33.33 | FuMan | did beta-updates and web-updates last time |
| 00:34.01 | sbromwich | give them a go again with the same procedure and see if you can replicate it? |
| 00:34.14 | sbromwich | test cases that prove a bug are always useful to the developer ;-) |
| 00:35.37 | sbromwich | does anyone know if there's an easy userspace way to see what's using the gp timer interrupt? It's the #1 cause of wakeups for me |
| 00:35.48 | FuMan | nope, damn |
| 00:35.53 | FuMan | same feed, no error |
| 00:35.58 | FuMan | at least its working correctly I suppose :) |
| 00:36.11 | sbromwich | there is that :-) |
| 00:36.20 | sbromwich | I had to update a couple of times before everything got in sync |
| 00:36.26 | sbromwich | it's called alpha for a reason, after all ;-) |
| 00:36.54 | FuMan | yeah, i like the progress bars :> |
| 00:36.59 | FuMan | and not having the java restarts is nice |
| 00:37.04 | FuMan | i wonder if this is the way everything is going to go |
| 00:37.05 | sbromwich | wait till you see the speed of the package updates once you have all the feeds loaded and I think you'll be happier |
| 00:37.07 | sbromwich | *nod* |
| 00:37.16 | sbromwich | I'm holding out for someone to port perl bindings |
| 00:37.22 | FuMan | homebrew/palm slowly but surely replacing all these fancy java services with C |
| 00:37.27 | sbromwich | *nod* |
| 00:37.40 | sbromwich | that or someone gets GPE or opie up and running |
| 00:41.09 | *** join/#webos-internals hOoLiGaN` (~root@c-24-13-125-215.hsd1.in.comcast.net) |
| 00:41.16 | zsoc | FuMan: C is more native, it just makes sense |
| 00:41.50 | FuMan | yeah |
| 00:42.10 | FuMan | its just sorta funny how they preached Web standard development... and any program that wants to actually run will, will eventually be C |
| 00:42.54 | sbromwich | to be anal, any program decomposes down a very long binary number. |
| 00:43.16 | sbromwich | when you buy a piece of software, all you are buying is a very long number |
| 00:43.19 | zsoc | FuMan: i don't see your point? |
| 00:43.43 | zsoc | C Services may make the APIs possible, but it is still a Web development platform |
| 00:44.12 | sbromwich | which just gave me a great idea for an app to join the host of useless apps on the palm catalog: a front panel led so one can toggle in one's own opcodes. |
| 00:44.44 | zsoc | heh |
| 00:44.45 | FuMan | meh, no point really |
| 00:44.48 | FuMan | too uneducated to have one. |
| 00:45.31 | sbromwich | nothing wrong with learning outside your boundaries though |
| 00:46.23 | sbromwich | all the low level stuff is C or assembler anyway |
| 00:47.50 | *** join/#webos-internals raster (raster@enlightenment/developer/raster) |
| 00:47.50 | chrisa | FuMan: the web api is still excellent / preferred for the vast majority of "apps" you see on other phone platforms today |
| 00:48.28 | chrisa | Especially with tools like ares around |
| 00:55.26 | rwhitby | FuMan: yes, I'm moving all our homebrew services from Java to C eventually |
| 00:57.55 | *** join/#webos-internals zinge (~zinge@173-132-218-156.pools.spcsdns.net) |
| 00:57.55 | *** mode/#webos-internals [+v zinge] by ChanServ |
| 00:58.40 | FuMan | do you expect that is something that palm will follow suit with? |
| 01:00.03 | sbromwich | I very much doubt it myself |
| 01:00.23 | sbromwich | it would mean rewriting pretty much the entire user interface layer, and I suspect that have far more interesting things to be doing |
| 01:03.11 | *** join/#webos-internals grndslm (~grndslm@174-126-14-4.cpe.cableone.net) |
| 01:06.51 | rwhitby | bbl |
| 01:11.56 | *** join/#webos-internals thadood (~thadood@c-75-64-178-167.hsd1.tn.comcast.net) |
| 01:13.07 | destinal | zsoc: well, it's a web development platform with plugins, is the new model, and plugins means mixed js/C apps without services |
| 01:13.16 | *** join/#webos-internals pbull (~4b768c8c@gateway/web/freenode/x-wkxzutqfhomqnikg) |
| 01:13.18 | destinal | but yeah they're not abandoning web |
| 01:13.50 | zsoc | destinal: oh how i missed you lol |
| 01:14.25 | oil | thinks plugin model is good |
| 01:14.46 | FuMan | oil |
| 01:14.52 | destinal | zsoc: likewise, it's really good to be back. :) |
| 01:14.54 | FuMan | How'd the family reunion go? |
| 01:15.03 | FuMan | aka xblfriends :D |
| 01:15.27 | oil | lol |
| 01:15.31 | oil | i didnt do shit |
| 01:15.52 | zsoc | I like to pretend everyone from webos-internals looks like nt4cats |
| 01:16.14 | FuMan | noooooo, well, hope you enjoyed the family none the less :> |
| 01:16.21 | oil | doesnt know what nt4cats looks like |
| 01:16.32 | zsoc | he is an odd guy |
| 01:16.36 | oil | he joined just to ask about that? lol |
| 01:18.01 | zinge | is nt4cats=not for cats, or nt4cats= winNT for cats? |
| 01:18.25 | ka6sox | has been wondering that too. |
| 01:18.36 | zsoc | neither iirc |
| 01:18.42 | zsoc | someone grep the logs lol |
| 01:19.41 | zinge | harder to do from my pre :-) |
| 01:20.11 | zsoc | open terminal, wget recursively, grep ;) |
| 01:20.40 | zsoc | the things one can do from his pre are actually ridiculous |
| 01:21.39 | *** join/#webos-internals philly (~43a1d4dc@gateway/web/freenode/x-wzxrwcuxrsubprze) |
| 01:22.39 | zinge | lol, oh I know. I also know that I'll accidentally decide that I don't like my terminal font size, and change it before remembering it'll blow up my phone :-) |
| 01:22.51 | *** join/#webos-internals eternaleye (~quassel@unaffiliated/eternaleye) |
| 01:23.48 | zsoc | hahaha |
| 01:23.55 | zsoc | excerrent |
| 01:24.15 | zinge | "the things one an do from his pre are actually ridiculous"- completely due to the people here ::applauds:: |
| 01:24.34 | zinge | *people who frequent this channel |
| 01:24.49 | sbromwich | does anyone know/have speculation on why some ext3 LVs are mounted ordered and others writeback? |
| 01:26.16 | sbromwich | and I can (to save other people the bother of testing) confirm that mounting with data=journal is utterly dog slow. |
| 01:28.09 | zsoc | zinge: i will still not get over the time, when we were first figuring out how SDL worked, and I actually ported an SDL app to webos with my Pre, the editing done in vim in Terminal and the building done in a debian chroot. |
| 01:29.26 | zinge | nice. nowhere near as impreesive, but I regularly confound relatives by opening terminal, ssh'ing to their pre's, and editing apps I wrote for them. |
| 01:30.11 | sbromwich | I sit in meetings and watch my servers report issues to my irc server |
| 01:30.33 | sbromwich | intermittently I turn to people and say things like "patient registration server is down in cobequid" |
| 01:30.50 | sbromwich | people can't understand how I can get so much information from "just a phone". |
| 01:34.25 | zinge | yup |
| 01:35.26 | zsoc | haha |
| 01:35.31 | zsoc | that's so much better :) |
| 01:36.14 | zinge | I wish I had time to keep up with all the new sdl/pdk stuff that everyone is working on. lately I've only been able to come in here when I need help with something I'm working on. |
| 01:36.18 | *** join/#webos-internals benklop (~wIRCer@173-97-105-103.pools.spcsdns.net) |
| 01:39.15 | sbromwich | anyone with command line/vi/remount experience feel like running a test for me to see if their speed gets improved? |
| 01:39.56 | *** join/#webos-internals mjkjr (~IceChat7@174-158-252-140.pools.spcsdns.net) |
| 01:40.30 | sbromwich | edit /etc/fstab and remove ,data=writeback from /dev/mapper/store-var and move it to /dev/mapper/store-log instead |
| 01:42.12 | *** join/#webos-internals alkos333 (~alkos333@c-67-162-31-157.hsd1.il.comcast.net) |
| 01:42.30 | zinge | how likely is that to break things and cause me to not be able to use my phone before I can plug it in to a compter again? |
| 01:43.01 | sbromwich | well, if you want to wait about 30 seconds I'm just finishing booting mine |
| 01:43.13 | sbromwich | if you cock up /etc/fstab it'll stop it booting |
| 01:44.11 | lingfish | Hai. |
| 01:44.21 | lingfish | Who here has tried Jason's FB chat shim thingy? |
| 01:44.29 | sbromwich | although I just thought... a quick way to do it as a test fixable by power cycle is mount -o remount,data=writeback /dev/mapper/store/-log /var/log ; mount -o remount,data=ordered /dev/mapper/store-var /var |
| 01:45.04 | sbromwich | WFM |
| 01:45.29 | zinge | I don't mind testing, but I need to be able to get calls, and won't be gome for another hour or two :-) |
| 01:45.54 | sbromwich | yeah I wouldn't do it if you don't have a backup method to hand |
| 01:46.04 | zinge | lingfish: I have |
| 01:46.10 | sbromwich | trying it from the CLI is fine, you might need to pull the battery but that would be it |
| 01:46.21 | lingfish | zinge: does it work? heh. I just see my Pre sitting there attempting to sign in ;) |
| 01:46.21 | sbromwich | run sync first just to make sure all data is flushes |
| 01:46.27 | sbromwich | ^flushes^flushed |
| 01:46.37 | zinge | lingfish: nope, that's what I had too |
| 01:46.44 | lingfish | zinge: ok, ta. |
| 01:47.04 | sbromwich | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:47.04 | sbromwich | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:47.04 | sbromwich | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:47.04 | sbromwich | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:47.04 | sbromwich | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:47.14 | sbromwich | made me a little nervous to see /usr/local mounted data=writeback. |
| 01:47.14 | zinge | lingfish: the messegings plugins/patches thread has one that works though |
| 01:47.36 | sbromwich | speed seems fine |
| 01:47.52 | sbromwich | I can, as in the numerous youtube video, scroll up and down the launcher very quickly |
| 01:47.54 | lingfish | zinge: yeah I had noticed that, but haven't tried it yet |
| 01:48.22 | lingfish | heh, I still can't download the FB beta again either. |
| 01:48.43 | sbromwich | it might be psychosomatic but preware alpha seems to process the feed listings more quickly, too |
| 01:48.47 | zinge | it works, but it just gives you random numbers instead of names. you have to guess who is who by their pictures |
| 01:48.54 | zsoc | sbromwich: are you saying the lag issue could involve how data is being written to a mounted partition? |
| 01:49.20 | sbromwich | yeah |
| 01:49.22 | zinge | wouldn't c services be running a bit faster than java would? |
| 01:49.39 | zinge | (for alpha) |
| 01:49.47 | sbromwich | I think /var should be mounted ordered and /var/log mounted writeback |
| 01:49.54 | sbromwich | http://batleth.sapienti-sat.org/projects/FAQs/ext3-faq.html |
| 01:50.10 | sbromwich | search for Q: I updated ext3 today. Got all of my mounts converted. Now on boot, I see: "EXT3-fs: mounted filesystem with ordered data mode". Is this normal? |
| 01:50.23 | sbromwich | explains the different types, and why I was slightly nervous |
| 01:50.31 | zsoc | zinge: in theory yes, C is a bit less abstracted |
| 01:50.40 | lingfish | zinge: oh wow... I just waited a while and it's actually working... |
| 01:50.57 | sbromwich | is there anything in particular that is known to thrash the bollocks off the filesystem? |
| 01:51.09 | zsoc | sbromwich: no, please do all of things you can think of and report back |
| 01:51.25 | zsoc | s/report back/write a patch for them/ |
| 01:51.26 | sbromwich | that's the problem... I'm not a typical pre user by any imagination |
| 01:51.38 | sbromwich | that's easy, I have svn |
| 01:51.44 | sbromwich | for /etc, that is |
| 01:52.41 | sbromwich | palm-webos-device /etc # svn diff -r 1 fstab |
| 01:52.41 | sbromwich | Index: fstab |
| 01:52.41 | sbromwich | =================================================================== |
| 01:52.41 | sbromwich | --- fstab(revision 1) |
| 01:52.41 | sbromwich | +++ fstab(working copy) |
| 01:52.42 | sbromwich | @@ -1,7 +1,7 @@ |
| 01:52.42 | sbromwich | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:52.43 | sbromwich | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:52.43 | sbromwich | -/dev/mapper/store-var/varext3noatime,data=writeback00 |
| 01:52.44 | sbromwich | -/dev/mapper/store-log/var/logext3noatime00 |
| 01:52.44 | sbromwich | +/dev/mapper/store-var/varext3noatime00 |
| 01:52.45 | sbromwich | +/dev/mapper/store-log/var/logext3noatime,data=writeback00 |
| 01:52.45 | sbromwich | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:52.46 | sbromwich | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:52.52 | destinal | ack please pastebin instead |
| 01:52.56 | destinal | flooding bad |
| 01:53.01 | rwhitby | sbromwich: preware alpha should process feeds quicker, cause we improved the algorithm to work in 4Kb chunks |
| 01:53.06 | lingfish | zinge: and now, even though I've gone offline, it is still showing FB contacts and stuff... I think that hack is a little broken and I'll remove that account ;) |
| 01:53.38 | zinge | lingfish: that's what I decided too |
| 01:53.49 | sbromwich | http://www.fop.ns.ca/fstab.diff |
| 01:54.08 | sbromwich | rwhitby: it seems faster than when I did the same before rebooting |
| 01:54.19 | sbromwich | but again... it may be psychosomatic |
| 01:54.59 | rwhitby | sbromwich: after installing preware alpha, you're still running the old service until a reboot |
| 01:55.13 | sbromwich | rwhitby: I've rebooted around 15 times today |
| 01:55.18 | rwhitby | ah, ok |
| 01:55.21 | sbromwich | (as in "shutdown -r now") |
| 01:56.33 | sbromwich | either this is severely psychosomatic, something was bollicksed on my system, or it's up to twice as fast depending on which part of preware alpha I'm hitting. |
| 01:56.57 | rwhitby | both the service and the client should be faster than plain old preware |
| 01:57.16 | sbromwich | I've been using preware alpha since some time yesterday |
| 01:58.14 | zinge | sbromwich: as far as things that hit the filesystem a bunch... maybe internalz? open a directory with a whole bunch of files or something maybe? I'm just making things up here... |
| 01:58.25 | zsoc | glider is actually very fun |
| 01:58.48 | sbromwich | I'm on 0.9.56 at the moment, am I still up date? |
| 01:59.02 | sbromwich | good idea zinge, thanks |
| 02:03.09 | rwhitby | sbromwich: yep |
| 02:03.13 | sbromwich | can someone try running this non-destructive test for me? cd /var/luna && /usr/bin/time find . -type f -exec cat '{}' > /dev/null \; |
| 02:03.33 | rwhitby | zsoc: glyder2 and hawx are my favourites |
| 02:04.07 | rwhitby | bbl - more gardening |
| 02:04.21 | *** join/#webos-internals thadood (~thadood@c-75-64-178-167.hsd1.tn.comcast.net) |
| 02:04.32 | zsoc | sbromwich: real0m 1.36s user0m 0.24s sys0m 0.39s |
| 02:04.44 | sbromwich | thanks |
| 02:04.44 | *** join/#webos-internals Kyusaku (natsumekyu@pool-71-187-3-69.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net) |
| 02:04.51 | sbromwich | if you run it again does sys go down? |
| 02:04.57 | sbromwich | sorry, user |
| 02:05.07 | zsoc | halved |
| 02:05.14 | zsoc | er |
| 02:05.21 | zsoc | yes, user is halved |
| 02:05.29 | zsoc | interest method of benchmarking btw lol |
| 02:06.08 | sbromwich | could you repeat the test with this for me? cd /var/log && /usr/bin/time find . -type f -exec cat '{}' > /dev/null \; |
| 02:06.18 | sbromwich | best I can do with what's to hand and everyone should have |
| 02:06.26 | zinge | how do I do curly brackets in terminal? |
| 02:07.01 | zsoc | sbromwich: real0m 0.95s user0m 0.11s sys0m 0.23s |
| 02:07.01 | zinge | and > for that matter... |
| 02:07.17 | sbromwich | and once more? |
| 02:07.42 | zsoc | zinge: shift+, and shift+. are the < and > |
| 02:07.48 | zsoc | not sure you can do curlies |
| 02:07.50 | lingfish | zinge: interesting... now I can't remove that account either :/ |
| 02:08.07 | zsoc | sbromwich: real0m 0.33s user0m 0.08s sys0m 0.25s |
| 02:08.16 | zinge | lingfish: had to restart, log out, restart again to get it removed |
| 02:08.16 | sbromwich | thanks |
| 02:08.28 | lingfish | zinge: yuh. |
| 02:08.50 | zinge | sbromwich: guess I can't help with that, sorry. |
| 02:09.29 | sbromwich | thanks for giving it a try zinge :-) |
| 02:10.50 | *** join/#webos-internals alkos333 (~alkos333@adsl-75-57-113-36.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net) |
| 02:11.39 | sbromwich | the performance seems very similar between the two |
| 02:12.08 | sbromwich | I think it's either psychosomatic or it's a matter of usage patterns... I would love to hear from anyone else who gives this a go |
| 02:12.20 | sbromwich | regardless I don't think /var should be mounted writeback or there could be data loss |
| 02:12.57 | zsoc | heh |
| 02:13.28 | sbromwich | certainly considering the number of times I pull the battery on the system, anyway |
| 02:17.40 | lingfish | zinge: do you have the FB beta installed? |
| 02:18.10 | zinge | lingfish: yes |
| 02:18.37 | lingfish | zinge: damn... need someone that doesn't have it installed. |
| 02:19.08 | zinge | why, what's up? |
| 02:19.39 | lingfish | zinge: I had it installed y'day... it was doing weird stuff, so I nuked it. Now tryin to re-add and it just sticks at "Downloading" |
| 02:20.15 | zinge | that's what happens when I try to reinstall the original |
| 02:20.24 | zinge | after I deleted it and decided I want it back |
| 02:20.25 | lingfish | weird. |
| 02:22.53 | sbromwich | have you rebooted your phone since uninstalling? |
| 02:23.06 | zinge | yes |
| 02:23.27 | zinge | it just refuses to re-download/install the origina facebook app now |
| 02:23.41 | sbromwich | ah, not the problem I thought then. |
| 02:23.41 | lingfish | yeah.. just hands on downloading. |
| 02:24.18 | sbromwich | I will note that the files are stored on a volume mounted writeback which is at risk of data corruption. |
| 02:25.17 | zinge | makes sense. my pre tends to reset a couple times daily in he middle of things for now good reason, so it could have corrupted something |
| 02:25.49 | sbromwich | *nod* |
| 02:25.58 | lingfish | hrm, are the fs's fsck'able? Recommended? |
| 02:26.05 | sbromwich | fsck during boot |
| 02:26.10 | sbromwich | otherwise you're fscking a live fs |
| 02:26.23 | lingfish | Oh? It forces one on each boot? |
| 02:27.41 | sbromwich | yup |
| 02:27.48 | sbromwich | look in /var/fsck |
| 02:27.53 | sbromwich | it seems to record errors in there |
| 02:28.07 | sbromwich | I am mildly surprised that I only have 2 |
| 02:28.32 | sbromwich | also they're dated Sun Jul 19 17:47:04 SRT 2009 or so but the timestamps on the files are within the last 48 hours |
| 02:29.10 | zinge | that directory is empty for me |
| 02:29.16 | lingfish | heh, I only have one and its from 2009 |
| 02:29.34 | zinge | bus has arrived at home. goodnight all |
| 02:29.40 | lingfish | cya |
| 02:29.43 | sbromwich | night zinge |
| 02:30.08 | sbromwich | if you ls -l it what date does it give you? |
| 02:30.19 | *** part/#webos-internals zinge (~zinge@173-132-218-156.pools.spcsdns.net) |
| 02:30.45 | sbromwich | in the file it says jul 2009 but mine are timestamped on the actual files as from today and yesterday |
| 02:32.47 | lingfish | Jan 12 |
| 02:32.55 | lingfish | I'm gonna run a non-destructive pass. |
| 02:33.03 | lingfish | perhaps its the same error and it cannot recover it |
| 02:33.10 | sbromwich | huh... you too then, that is *weird* |
| 02:33.13 | sbromwich | could be |
| 02:33.33 | sbromwich | I'm rather all happy to have edited my fstab now ;-) |
| 02:33.46 | sbromwich | both mine are complaining about /var, is your's? |
| 02:34.13 | lingfish | yup |
| 02:34.32 | sbromwich | makes sense, it's the only one mounted writeback |
| 02:34.43 | sbromwich | I can't help wondering what palm were thinking |
| 02:34.46 | sbromwich | or if it's a bug |
| 02:35.18 | lingfish | the thing is, those fs's are marked as not to fsck anyway |
| 02:35.20 | lingfish | only / is |
| 02:35.42 | lingfish | so they must launch it in an rc |
| 02:35.42 | sbromwich | where are you seeing that? |
| 02:36.23 | lingfish | # Let's always run fsck on /dev/mmcblk0p3 in case user pulled battery |
| 02:36.24 | lingfish | # mid-write, whatever. If the fs is marked clean this will be a very |
| 02:36.37 | lingfish | in /etc/fstab... the last column designates what order to fsck |
| 02:36.40 | lingfish | 0 means don't at all |
| 02:36.47 | sbromwich | yeah, I'm looking at that too now |
| 02:36.49 | lingfish | root should always be 1, the rest 2+ |
| 02:36.55 | sbromwich | ah right |
| 02:37.10 | sbromwich | brb |
| 02:37.50 | lingfish | yeah, they're doing it manually from mountall.sh |
| 02:38.10 | lingfish | <PROTECTED> |
| 02:38.10 | lingfish | <PROTECTED> |
| 02:38.13 | lingfish | lol |
| 02:39.08 | lingfish | also check /var/log/var_fsck.log |
| 02:39.40 | lingfish | so my conclusion basically is that you'll only see stuff there when there was actually an issue. |
| 02:43.11 | sbromwich | yeah, someone at palm has a sense of humour ;-) |
| 02:45.12 | sbromwich | if [ -f /var/.rootfs_fsck -o -n "$WILL_BE_RW" ]; then |
| 02:45.12 | sbromwich | <PROTECTED> |
| 02:45.12 | sbromwich | <PROTECTED> |
| 02:45.24 | sbromwich | so I *think* you will only see the last fsck logged :-/ |
| 02:45.33 | lingfish | yeah. |
| 02:45.45 | lingfish | Considering they aren't using any form of log rotation/compression, I'm not surprised. |
| 02:45.53 | sbromwich | oh no, I misread, that's root_fsck |
| 02:45.57 | sbromwich | heh |
| 02:46.02 | lingfish | but same still applies... |
| 02:46.13 | sbromwich | ah. |
| 02:46.14 | sbromwich | # We'll also leave the most recent result for inspection, good or bad |
| 02:46.14 | sbromwich | date > /var/log/var_fsck.log |
| 02:46.14 | sbromwich | echo "$VARFSCK" >> /var/log/var_fsck.log |
| 02:46.16 | sbromwich | yeah. |
| 02:46.18 | sbromwich | :-/ |
| 02:46.42 | sbromwich | some of my stuff gets rotated but I think I might have installed logrotate |
| 02:47.18 | sbromwich | given what palm get up to I'm tempted to cat /dev/null > all the files in /var/log |
| 02:47.42 | lingfish | heh |
| 02:48.33 | lingfish | ugh I HATE this "use forums for software releases" junk! |
| 02:48.48 | lingfish | I'm trying to find info on this messaging plugin/patch thing... and its impossible |
| 02:49.04 | sbromwich | yeah, I'm not big on forums myself |
| 02:49.27 | sbromwich | usenet is my world, where it takes a keystroke to skip from one message to the next |
| 02:49.29 | lingfish | I like forums... just not for THIS kind of thing... we need a wiki that each dev can just update etc |
| 02:49.44 | lingfish | Sure, use them for feedback, but not for the app's "homepage" |
| 02:49.54 | sbromwich | heh |
| 02:50.07 | sbromwich | more of a prison than a home, I would say |
| 02:50.30 | lingfish | it was hard enough to find the latest info on the 600mhz patch |
| 02:50.51 | sbromwich | heh |
| 02:50.55 | sbromwich | I just did it from the command line |
| 02:51.18 | lingfish | Well see that's the issue -- they've moved to ipk, so the download links were vapourised |
| 02:51.25 | sbromwich | I didn't realise there *was* a patch until I stumbled across the precentral forums and everyone was all excited about it ;-) |
| 02:51.32 | lingfish | So then I had to trawl several massive stupid threads, compare dates etc |
| 02:52.50 | sbromwich | do you want my /etc/event.d/cpu-scaling? You'll have to step it down to 600Mhz and remove the extra swap partition but you're welcome to it if you want |
| 02:53.19 | lingfish | Nah thanks, as of y'day I'm all good... been running it now for about 24 hours. |
| 02:53.33 | lingfish | But see, again... wasn't easy to even find the latest WOSQI either.. had to ask Jason. |
| 02:53.36 | lingfish | Seems silly to me. |
| 02:54.05 | sbromwich | what's WOSQI? I keep seeing it mentioned but haven't been overly bothered to look into it |
| 02:54.10 | lingfish | </rant_almost_over> |
| 02:54.13 | sbromwich | *grin* |
| 02:54.16 | lingfish | WebOS Quick Install |
| 02:54.22 | lingfish | Jason's kinda variant of Preware. |
| 02:54.26 | lingfish | but not, but kinda. |
| 02:54.29 | sbromwich | hmmm, ok |
| 02:54.34 | sbromwich | for windows or something? |
| 02:54.53 | lingfish | Java, so should be xplat |
| 02:54.58 | sbromwich | ok |
| 02:55.17 | sbromwich | does it do anything fun other than just (presumedly) install preware? |
| 02:55.48 | lingfish | No, it doesn't install Preware... its an ipk installer |
| 02:55.52 | lingfish | so kinda does the same thing |
| 02:55.54 | sbromwich | oh. |
| 02:55.58 | lingfish | has utilities for cmdline access and whatnot too |
| 02:56.15 | lingfish | In a way, imagine Preware, but old-schoolish in that you need a PC and a cable |
| 02:56.17 | sbromwich | I think I'll stick with novaterm and/or ssh ;-) |
| 02:56.42 | lingfish | Well ditto, but sometimes WOSQI is needed to install stuff (eg the 600mhz patch) |
| 02:56.45 | lingfish | heh. |
| 02:57.01 | sbromwich | all that 600mhz patch is doing is twiddling a syfs setting |
| 02:57.16 | sbromwich | the 720/800 one is the magic one with the hacked kernel |
| 02:57.32 | lingfish | I think its more than one setting, as I tried it by hand to no avail. |
| 02:57.52 | sbromwich | there's a few settings to change |
| 02:58.27 | lingfish | yuh. |
| 02:58.31 | sbromwich | you have to make the governor ondemand, scaling_max_freq 600mhz, and optionally scaling_min_freq to 125 |
| 02:58.41 | sbromwich | once that's done it's... well, done |
| 02:59.06 | sbromwich | I'm slightly surprised palm don't let the phone boot up at 600MHz |
| 02:59.30 | lingfish | I reckon its just another card up the sleeve... it'll come. |
| 02:59.44 | sbromwich | heh |
| 02:59.45 | lingfish | The fact that the max values are already 600... adn they bump it up for games... |
| 03:00.08 | sbromwich | there's also the fact they're using sodding insulating material on top of the cpu |
| 03:00.20 | sbromwich | someone deserves a kick up the jacksie for that one |
| 03:01.01 | lingfish | Why does this anger you? |
| 03:01.56 | sbromwich | I used to work for palm so I know what they should be capable of |
| 03:01.58 | sbromwich | well... usr |
| 03:02.01 | sbromwich | or 3com |
| 03:02.06 | sbromwich | or whoever the hell they are these days |
| 03:02.27 | sbromwich | I would have thought *someone* would have learnt the less from spiral death syndrome |
| 03:02.32 | sbromwich | ^less^lesson |
| 03:02.37 | sbromwich | </bitter> |
| 03:03.25 | lingfish | But wouldn't the insulation be acting as a heat dissipator? |
| 03:03.46 | lingfish | or heatsink |
| 03:04.33 | sbromwich | ish |
| 03:04.36 | sbromwich | *very* ish |
| 03:04.55 | sbromwich | but for all the good it does it might as well be a few sheets of paper |
| 03:05.08 | lingfish | So what would you have done? |
| 03:05.48 | sbromwich | first batch I would have buggered about with trying to overheat and then supercool with freeze spray to stress the buggery out of them |
| 03:06.06 | sbromwich | that would have shown which chips were most voonerable to thermal stresses |
| 03:06.26 | bpadalino | there's a ddr chip sitting on top of the omap .. not much you can really do to help dissipate that heat other than a heat slug on the bottom of the pcb which they left bare anyway |
| 03:06.30 | sbromwich | then I would have looked into putting a static insulated heatsink over the relvant chips (my guess is CPU and/or voltage regulator) |
| 03:07.32 | lingfish | Right. Nice. |
| 03:08.49 | *** part/#webos-internals latta (~latta@c-24-218-167-23.hsd1.vt.comcast.net) |
| 03:08.53 | sbromwich | and I'm not tempted to disassemble my phone to make sure but looking at the photos on the rapidrepair.com disassembly it looks like there's plenty of space |
| 03:09.33 | bpadalino | plenty of space on the pcb ? |
| 03:09.45 | lingfish | Yeah. I love my phone. Have always loved Palm. I just get this.. itchy feeling... like, "Shit shit shit, cmon guys, just do this this way, and that that way and you'll KILL it..." |
| 03:09.55 | lingfish | Kinda like a "sooooooo close!" |
| 03:09.57 | sbromwich | http://www.rapidrepair.com/guides/Palm-Pre/palm-pre-dissasembly-repair-guide.html |
| 03:10.30 | sbromwich | yeah, the pre is *very* close to what I dreamt of when the first beta palm pilot arrived in the uk |
| 03:11.09 | lingfish | For me its pretty much spot on what I've always wanted from a smartphone. I meant more for them to survive. |
| 03:12.16 | bpadalino | sbromwich: you really think that pcb is not cramped beyond belief ? |
| 03:12.23 | sbromwich | yeah, I hope so too... They had an absolute pile in their warchest last time I was talking to anyone over there but that was a while ago now |
| 03:12.24 | sbromwich | nup |
| 03:12.31 | sbromwich | I used to work on pcmcia modems though |
| 03:12.52 | lingfish | sbromwich: pile in their warchest? Meaning a lot of work? |
| 03:13.06 | bpadalino | so you do realize those are 0201 or 01005 resistors ? |
| 03:13.06 | sbromwich | $$$ |
| 03:13.15 | lingfish | ah. |
| 03:13.29 | sbromwich | which "those"? |
| 03:13.45 | bpadalino | choose any resistor .. heh |
| 03:14.06 | sbromwich | no, I left the embedded systems world in 1996 |
| 03:14.48 | sbromwich | I can recognise the SMT as SMT stuff but I would have to go reference the relevant bits to see what their capabilities and restrictions were |
| 03:15.50 | lingfish | See, I've just had to grab the epitome of evil, my work Samsung f'ing Winmo phone... my GOD what an example of evil. |
| 03:16.06 | sbromwich | my last phone was a windows phone. |
| 03:16.07 | sbromwich | it sucked. |
| 03:16.29 | sbromwich | voice services at my DHA tried to force me to get a blackberry but I refused |
| 03:16.30 | lingfish | oh I hate this phone soooooooooo so much |
| 03:17.06 | sbromwich | mine was an htc... I had to press the sym key so hard to make it work it ended up cracking in half |
| 03:18.22 | sbromwich | oh, and the registry (or whatever it was) would corrupt itself on a near-monthly basis, forcing a wipe and reinstall |
| 03:18.41 | lingfish | and not to mention broken event notifications |
| 03:18.47 | sbromwich | fortunately I have a funambol server at home so I could at least sync all my stuff up |
| 03:18.50 | sbromwich | oh my god yes. |
| 03:18.59 | dreadchicken | my pre is the closest thing to "it" since my psion 3 and 3a. |
| 03:19.07 | sbromwich | it just could not cope with the fact I'm UTV-4 |
| 03:19.13 | sbromwich | UTC, rather |
| 03:19.27 | sbromwich | psion... that's going back a while |
| 03:19.28 | dreadchicken | have they fixed alarms on winmo yet? was a wtf ~10 years ago that you couldn't trust the alarm clock. |
| 03:19.29 | *** join/#webos-internals uNiXpSyChO (~marco@static-72-93-236-42.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) |
| 03:19.49 | sbromwich | they *usually* worked. |
| 03:19.50 | dreadchicken | my psions were wonderful devices, well the 3 series. |
| 03:20.07 | sbromwich | heh |
| 03:20.15 | sbromwich | I remember some of the later models being a little... odd |
| 03:20.22 | sbromwich | the... 5, was it? |
| 03:21.35 | dreadchicken | the 5 was big, i had one. the 3 could run 40 hours on 2xaa, built in apps were good, could multi-task (only one process could have the display at a time though) and came with a simple programming language built-in. |
| 03:21.44 | sbromwich | and there was another one from hp around the same time with a weird slide-out mouse that was quite good, too |
| 03:22.17 | sbromwich | for me, anyway - it had a built in serial port so I could go on site to test (say) a courier modem on an as/400 in leased line mode |
| 03:22.18 | dreadchicken | the 40 hours was usage time, so it could go weeks. |
| 03:22.36 | sbromwich | yeah, I remember several devices like that |
| 03:22.42 | sbromwich | didn't tandy make one way back when too? |
| 03:22.45 | dreadchicken | i used the psion to boot big sgi boxen. |
| 03:22.55 | *** join/#webos-internals RagingMind (~ragingmin@174-20-165-129.mpls.qwest.net) |
| 03:22.57 | sbromwich | ISTR one with a 4 or 5 line display |
| 03:23.13 | sbromwich | and it had an acoustic coupler. |
| 03:23.23 | sbromwich | there's 2 words I haven't had to use in a hell of a long time. |
| 03:23.26 | dreadchicken | cause they never booted cleanly and the terminals were always off somewhere. |
| 03:23.36 | sbromwich | heh |
| 03:23.46 | sbromwich | yeah, that sounds like SGI ;-) |
| 03:24.23 | sbromwich | I remember them being ever so proud about having SGIs at Pipex until I asked them to reboot their dev box |
| 03:24.33 | sbromwich | things suddenly got a little... negative ;-) |
| 03:25.51 | *** part/#webos-internals benklop (~wIRCer@173-97-105-103.pools.spcsdns.net) |
| 03:26.10 | dreadchicken | they were nice boxes, but i never understood using them as shell account boxes. doing multi-pipe graphics or crunching, now that i was a good use. r8k and r10k were beasts for fp in the day. |
| 03:26.31 | hOoLiGaN` | could anyone help me get preware working? |
| 03:26.37 | hOoLiGaN` | i've tried every type of install |
| 03:26.50 | sbromwich | mmm... I always found sun to be the best for lots of shell users |
| 03:27.32 | dreadchicken | agrees with sbromwich |
| 03:27.37 | sbromwich | hOoLiGaN`: are you in dev mode ok? |
| 03:28.03 | sbromwich | <PROTECTED> |
| 03:28.23 | sbromwich | and their cases were really nice pieces of design work, if a little gaudy on occasion |
| 03:29.09 | sbromwich | wonders if he's turned this place into an old sysadmin's retirement home or something ;-) |
| 03:29.30 | lingfish | Ah man, don't even get me started on all the oldschool kit ;) |
| 03:30.25 | sbromwich | well, I just managed to pawn off my apollo workstation, and the random collection of sparc classics, but I've still got the HP D370 downstairs |
| 03:31.14 | sbromwich | and the HP... 710? workstation |
| 03:31.19 | lingfish | Someone help hOoLiGaN` :P |
| 03:31.34 | sbromwich | however, if someone wants to come to halifax to pick up more old crap... ;-) |
| 03:31.39 | lingfish | And stop pining over HP9000's ;) |
| 03:31.53 | sbromwich | lingfish: I already asked him if he was in dev mode OK without an answer that I can see |
| 03:32.11 | lingfish | oh heh |
| 03:32.14 | sbromwich | I'm not pining so much as looking for a way to get rid of the crap in my basement without having to pay the recycling fee ;-) |
| 03:32.21 | hOoLiGaN` | yes sbrowmich i am |
| 03:32.42 | hOoLiGaN` | unless it is possible to reset itself |
| 03:32.44 | sbromwich | hOoLiGaN`: can you run novaterm and get to the root prompt ok? |
| 03:32.57 | hOoLiGaN` | yes 1 sec |
| 03:32.58 | rwhitby | sbromwich: instead of pulling the battery, hold down power and toggle the mute switch three times |
| 03:33.26 | hOoLiGaN` | ok i am in root |
| 03:33.49 | bpadalino | with great power comes great responsibility. |
| 03:34.09 | sbromwich | rwhitby: does that override the fact I've hung the kernel? |
| 03:34.31 | hOoLiGaN` | i dont have preware installed atm |
| 03:34.36 | hOoLiGaN` | i did the 1.4.1.1 update |
| 03:34.37 | sbromwich | hOoLiGaN`: Read all of http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Application:Preware#Installing_Preware_from_Terminal.2C_Novaterm_or_WebOS_Quick_Install_.22Linux_Commandline.22 |
| 03:34.39 | hOoLiGaN` | and haven't tried again |
| 03:34.53 | rwhitby | sbromwich: it's the next step up from orange+sym+r, but may not fix a badly hung kernel |
| 03:34.55 | sbromwich | and then run the shell script it tells you |
| 03:34.57 | hOoLiGaN` | i've used bootstrap |
| 03:34.58 | hOoLiGaN` | twice |
| 03:35.03 | hOoLiGaN` | with no success |
| 03:35.05 | sbromwich | oh, this is hung hard enough to kill ssh and novaterm |
| 03:35.36 | sbromwich | hOoLiGaN`: please try reading http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html instead |
| 03:36.06 | hOoLiGaN` | :/ |
| 03:36.28 | sbromwich | ? |
| 03:37.12 | rwhitby | hOoLiGaN`: what's in /tmp/preware-bootstrap.log ? paste it on webos.pastebin.com |
| 03:37.36 | hOoLiGaN` | ok let me re-install it |
| 03:37.40 | hOoLiGaN` | preware that is |
| 03:39.25 | sbromwich | Apr 4 22:42:09 itssab-aspire novacomd: error reading packet, shutting down, rc: -1, errno 19 |
| 03:39.35 | sbromwich | that looks like a typical error that tells me it's time for a battery pull |
| 03:40.19 | sbromwich | itssab@itssab-aspire:/var/log$ grep -c "novacomd: error reading packet, shutting down" messages |
| 03:40.20 | sbromwich | 91 |
| 03:40.20 | sbromwich | itssab@itssab-aspire:/var/log$ |
| 03:41.01 | sbromwich | as you can see, it's happened a few times. |
| 03:41.39 | hOoLiGaN` | when installing via novaterm |
| 03:41.44 | hOoLiGaN` | and it asks: |
| 03:42.02 | hOoLiGaN` | Would you like to include any alpha Preware/IPKGService releases for this install/update Y/N? |
| 03:42.30 | hOoLiGaN` | which... should i choose |
| 03:42.36 | hOoLiGaN` | i've tried both with no success previously |
| 03:43.21 | *** join/#webos-internals Marajin (~marajin@87-194-102-189.bethere.co.uk) |
| 03:43.21 | sbromwich | how do you know it did not succeed? |
| 03:43.43 | hOoLiGaN` | the first time when i ran preware i was getting an ipkg undefined blah blah blah error |
| 03:43.50 | hOoLiGaN` | the second time i chose no |
| 03:43.54 | hOoLiGaN` | and preware would start |
| 03:43.58 | hOoLiGaN` | but wouldn't isntall apps |
| 03:44.03 | sbromwich | I bet you a beer it didn't say "blah blah". |
| 03:44.16 | hOoLiGaN` | yeah i know |
| 03:44.26 | hOoLiGaN` | my memory isn't exact though |
| 03:44.28 | sbromwich | ok |
| 03:44.28 | hOoLiGaN` | i sincerely apologize |
| 03:44.31 | sbromwich | np |
| 03:44.45 | sbromwich | did you try again selecting "Y"? |
| 03:45.02 | hOoLiGaN` | yes that was when i selected Y |
| 03:45.06 | hOoLiGaN` | i was given that error |
| 03:45.40 | sbromwich | see if you can replicate and get the exact error message? |
| 03:45.54 | hOoLiGaN` | ok one second i just finished re-installing |
| 03:45.59 | sbromwich | ok |
| 03:46.12 | sbromwich | give your phone a full reboot just for fun. |
| 03:46.28 | hOoLiGaN` | oh i just restarted luna |
| 03:46.57 | sbromwich | ok, reboot the full system when it comes back, the reboot includes some scripts that clean up the filesystem |
| 03:47.09 | hOoLiGaN` | alright |
| 03:47.53 | sbromwich | don't be afraid of rebooting the phone |
| 03:48.08 | sbromwich | I've done it 91 times since Mar 28 19:18:57 |
| 03:48.20 | hOoLiGaN` | lol i've probably done it 8 times since yesterday |
| 03:48.23 | hOoLiGaN` | possibly more |
| 03:48.32 | sbromwich | *nod* |
| 03:48.46 | sbromwich | I like experimenting with mine, so I frequently crash it when I hit a bug |
| 03:48.52 | hOoLiGaN` | hehe |
| 03:48.59 | hOoLiGaN` | just picked mine up yesterday |
| 03:49.08 | sbromwich | I got mine a couple of weeks ago |
| 03:49.19 | sbromwich | having a working linux box in my pocket is *very* useful. |
| 03:49.42 | hOoLiGaN` | especially with wifi |
| 03:50.07 | sbromwich | oh yeah |
| 03:50.34 | sbromwich | I can vpnc into work then ssh from my netbook into the phone on to the server and be done in 15 minutes |
| 03:50.50 | sbromwich | instead of looking at a 45 minute trip down to the DC |
| 03:51.18 | sbromwich | which also means I can drink more beer, which can only be a good thing. |
| 03:51.22 | hOoLiGaN` | hmmm one bug is fixed already |
| 03:51.27 | sbromwich | oh? |
| 03:51.28 | hOoLiGaN` | maybe the patch fixed my problems |
| 03:51.48 | hOoLiGaN` | on previous install only two feeds were available |
| 03:51.51 | hOoLiGaN` | now they are all updating |
| 03:51.52 | sbromwich | worth a try |
| 03:51.56 | sbromwich | hurrah! |
| 03:52.48 | hOoLiGaN` | *crosses fingers |
| 03:53.20 | sbromwich | if you've got *all* the feeds loaded it'll... take a while ;-) |
| 03:53.32 | sbromwich | the new alpha version is a but faster, but it's still alpha. |
| 03:53.33 | hOoLiGaN` | :D |
| 03:53.45 | hOoLiGaN` | now i hope it installssss |
| 03:54.02 | hOoLiGaN` | awesome |
| 03:54.05 | sbromwich | if the feeds come in you should be good to go |
| 03:54.08 | sbromwich | ? |
| 03:54.18 | hOoLiGaN` | installing :D |
| 03:54.20 | sbromwich | up and running already? |
| 03:54.20 | sbromwich | ahhh |
| 03:54.37 | sbromwich | well, watch the pretty update screen I guess :-) |
| 03:54.45 | hOoLiGaN` | oh i meant |
| 03:54.48 | hOoLiGaN` | instlaling an app :D |
| 03:54.54 | hOoLiGaN` | i'm good to go |
| 03:55.02 | sbromwich | yay! |
| 03:55.16 | hOoLiGaN` | dude this is so sick |
| 03:55.31 | hOoLiGaN` | i can fuckin write C programs on my phone |
| 03:55.37 | sbromwich | something makes me feel you're going to investigate overclocking next. |
| 03:55.47 | hOoLiGaN` | lolllllllll i am now ;) |
| 03:55.54 | sbromwich | yeah, you can install joe and vi and stuff |
| 03:55.55 | sbromwich | heh |
| 03:56.06 | sbromwich | are you running the ondemand cpu governor too? |
| 03:56.13 | hOoLiGaN` | ?? |
| 03:56.18 | hOoLiGaN` | guess not |
| 03:56.34 | sbromwich | let me see if I can find the forum post I made... sec |
| 03:56.59 | sbromwich | http://forums.precentral.net/palm-pre/239159-huge-battery-improvement-after-800-mhz-patch-2.html |
| 03:57.02 | sbromwich | third post down |
| 03:57.19 | sbromwich | those are fairly conservative settings but they work well for me |
| 03:57.49 | hOoLiGaN` | ahhh wow thx for link |
| 03:57.55 | hOoLiGaN` | i was noticing bit of cpu hang-up |
| 03:58.00 | sbromwich | also note jhoff's experiences later down |
| 03:58.06 | hOoLiGaN` | <3 |
| 03:58.09 | sbromwich | how well do you know linux? |
| 03:58.17 | sbromwich | you must have a clue if you're doing c programming on the phone |
| 03:58.55 | sbromwich | the cpu hang-ups are, I think, mostly due to disk flushing |
| 03:59.28 | sbromwich | <PROTECTED> |
| 03:59.52 | sbromwich | pmsyslogd is the thread to -KILL to get it to reload |
| 04:00.10 | sbromwich | edit /etc/fstab and make /var/log mount data=writeback not /var |
| 04:00.15 | sbromwich | then reboot |
| 04:00.23 | sbromwich | and I think you'll find the phone less laggy |
| 04:01.47 | hOoLiGaN` | alright cool thx for the tips |
| 04:01.53 | hOoLiGaN` | yeah im decent at linux |
| 04:02.30 | sbromwich | ok, that should give you enough information then |
| 04:02.51 | sbromwich | the only other think I can think of is / keeps getting mount ro, so you'll have to remount that rw before you can edit fstab |
| 04:03.05 | *** join/#webos-internals phil_bw (~wIRCer@c-98-246-52-50.hsd1.or.comcast.net) |
| 04:03.45 | phil_bw | wanders by |
| 04:07.55 | hOoLiGaN` | i can't ever copy or paste into or out of novaerm :/ |
| 04:08.19 | phil_bw | I never really tried |
| 04:08.24 | sbromwich | rwhitby: you might want to ask if the people with the "freezing" problem are overclocking, as that was one of my acid tests playing with overclocking, whether I could make preware freeze processing freeds or not |
| 04:08.38 | sbromwich | use novaterm to ping the machine you're on; ssh into the phone. |
| 04:08.59 | sbromwich | it's also nice if you have control of the local dhcp server to set the ip static on there |
| 04:12.11 | *** join/#webos-internals dkirker1 (~dkirker1@openmobl/ceo/dkirker) |
| 04:13.09 | rwhitby | sbromwich: I occasionally get a freeze during processing unknowns, with no overclocking |
| 04:13.49 | sbromwich | if I run at 800MHz fixed I can reliably lock my phone when I check/uncompress feeds on my phone |
| 04:14.08 | rwhitby | is working on the uber-kernel-pre package right now ... |
| 04:14.16 | sbromwich | *grin* |
| 04:14.31 | sbromwich | is it newer than 2.6.24? ;-) |
| 04:14.43 | sbromwich | does it have the rt patch? ;-> |
| 04:14.50 | rwhitby | no, no. stock Pre kernel, just with some small mods. |
| 04:14.58 | sbromwich | dash it all, man! ;-) |
| 04:15.17 | rwhitby | we can have a 'hardcore-kernel-pre' package too ... |
| 04:15.29 | sbromwich | I don't suppose anyone did a writeup on what's necessary to get a new kernel to compile? |
| 04:15.30 | rwhitby | but this one is the safe one for the average joe |
| 04:15.39 | sbromwich | I can probalby hack the diffs to get something more recent |
| 04:15.49 | sbromwich | I'm curious to see what frigging with HZ would do too |
| 04:15.57 | rwhitby | sbromwich: sure you don't want commit access? ;-) |
| 04:16.02 | sbromwich | ohhhhh yes |
| 04:16.20 | sbromwich | let me find the last time I made that mistake... |
| 04:16.36 | rwhitby | you know that I'll get you - I'll just release something that you just can't stand to look at and you just have to fix it, and that will be it - game over. |
| 04:17.14 | sbromwich | http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=44.6578&lon=-63.6118&zoom=12&layers=B000FTF |
| 04:17.34 | sbromwich | no, I have a perfectly good webserver I can keep throwing diffs up on ;-) |
| 04:17.54 | rwhitby | that works too, the autobuilder can grab them from there |
| 04:18.25 | rwhitby | sbromwich: FYI: http://unixpsycho.com/palm-pre/ |
| 04:18.38 | sbromwich | unless, off course, it's just some random diff against, say, a file called "config-assistant.js" or some such ;-) |
| 04:18.46 | sbromwich | ah, thanks |
| 04:19.00 | rwhitby | I need an icon for the kernel package too .... |
| 04:19.25 | sbromwich | The kernels are built from Palm source available from http://opensource.palm.com/packages.html. |
| 04:19.28 | sbromwich | *heart* |
| 04:21.00 | rwhitby | sbromwich: and http://git.webos-internals.org/?p=kernels/patches.git;a=summary |
| 04:21.06 | rwhitby | need to get the .config in there too |
| 04:21.33 | sbromwich | must... resist... |
| 04:22.35 | sbromwich | oh, is there a recovery method should one happen to, oh... trash ones /boot? |
| 04:22.44 | sbromwich | just, y'know... wondering. |
| 04:23.33 | rwhitby | sbromwich: yep, look at the bottom of our wiki recovery page. |
| 04:23.48 | rwhitby | bootie can be told to boot a kernel and initramfs from memory |
| 04:24.05 | sbromwich | hahahaaha |
| 04:24.09 | rwhitby | we can even handle a bootloader deletion, using the OMAP usb boot mode |
| 04:24.11 | sbromwich | so I might be the first person to try this in anger? |
| 04:24.19 | rwhitby | no, the bootie mem: is well tested |
| 04:24.23 | sbromwich | ah, ok |
| 04:24.29 | rwhitby | the usb boot mode has only been done a couple of times |
| 04:24.41 | rwhitby | the bootie mem: is what the webOS Doctor uses |
| 04:25.08 | rwhitby | sbromwich: just sent you the .config to go with that patch |
| 04:25.40 | sbromwich | got it, ta :-) |
| 04:26.25 | phil_bw | sighs |
| 04:26.32 | idw2k|wirc | sbromwich: was just reading the thread on improved battery life with overclocking and have a question |
| 04:26.42 | sbromwich | mmm? |
| 04:26.53 | phil_bw | finding the perfect window manager for X on the Pre is tough... |
| 04:27.08 | rwhitby | sbromwich: also forwarded you some other discussion |
| 04:27.14 | sbromwich | I was speculating on opie and gpe myself earlier, phil_bw |
| 04:27.28 | idw2k|wirc | does the uberCPU Scaling app do the same thing as your script, or is it using a different governor? |
| 04:27.29 | sbromwich | reading it now |
| 04:27.34 | sbromwich | I have no idea |
| 04:27.34 | rwhitby | phil_bw: how about what they use for SHR in OpenMoko ? |
| 04:27.57 | rwhitby | or what raster uses for e17 on OpenMoko |
| 04:28.01 | sbromwich | I'm not very good with scripts and packages and graphical stuff, I log in directly to my phone over ssh and do it directly from an event.d script |
| 04:28.10 | phil_bw | sbromwich: I havnt tried either |
| 04:28.34 | *** join/#webos-internals Jack87-wIRC (~wIRCer@c-24-10-244-251.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 04:28.38 | rwhitby | sbromwich: I can do that, but before I use something I always package it for Preware, so that I can install the same thing later when I reflash my device. |
| 04:28.47 | dreadchicken | fvwm ftw |
| 04:29.00 | dreadchicken | realizes he is getting old. |
| 04:29.11 | rwhitby | dreadchicken: +1 fvwm or gwm |
| 04:29.13 | phil_bw | rwhitby: I really wanted to go with e 17 but I'm using Debian and I can't find a working package |
| 04:29.16 | sbromwich | wmaker myself |
| 04:29.37 | phil_bw | I want somewith with a virtual desktop/pager |
| 04:29.41 | sbromwich | *some* day development will restart. |
| 04:29.54 | rwhitby | bbiab |
| 04:29.54 | sbromwich | wmaker does multiple desktops |
| 04:29.58 | *** join/#webos-internals Jack87 (~180af4fb@gateway/web/freenode/x-zyvjeretgtygtoql) |
| 04:30.01 | sbromwich | I'm not sure it'd be suited to the pre though |
| 04:30.15 | phil_bw | not multiple desktops, virtual desktop |
| 04:30.17 | phil_bw | s |
| 04:30.27 | idw2k|wirc | hmm. overclocking to 800 is killing my battery and the cpu scaling app doesn't seem to have much effect. |
| 04:30.38 | phil_bw | so when my windows keep going off screen I could page over |
| 04:30.45 | idw2k|wirc | I'll have to try your method. |
| 04:31.02 | sbromwich | ah, to scroll around? |
| 04:31.03 | dreadchicken | x itself can do that |
| 04:31.27 | phil_bw | dreadchicken: not when you don't have a mouse |
| 04:31.45 | phil_bw | also the package I am using is locked to Pre resolution |
| 04:31.51 | sbromwich | idw2k|wirc: run the following in novaterm: cd /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/stats/ && watch -n 1 cat * |
| 04:32.10 | sbromwich | that will show you if you're stuck at 800MHz (in which case yes, you are indeed wasting power) or if it's trying to step |
| 04:32.19 | dreadchicken | obviously, you need to spend time making a bt mouse work with the pre =p |
| 04:32.34 | phil_bw | haha |
| 04:32.50 | sbromwich | the palm userspace daemon will try doing some stepping but it's interested more in dicking about with the radio stuff, so it doesn't do a stellar job with the cpu |
| 04:33.24 | phil_bw | so far e 16 works well for paging on the desktop, but most functionality requires right click... again a no go on a touch screen |
| 04:34.33 | dreadchicken | some way to map sym+tap to right, orange+tap to center? |
| 04:35.21 | phil_bw | I should probably come around when dtzWill is here and ask him... his package after all |
| 04:35.30 | phil_bw | anyway, time for bed... |
| 04:35.43 | phil_bw | wanders off |
| 04:35.55 | idw2k|wirc | sbromwich: I will try that when I get home. at work at the moment |
| 04:36.20 | sbromwich | ok |
| 04:36.58 | sbromwich | only 272 patch failures from the 2.6.25 kernel... this might be doable |
| 04:38.42 | sbromwich | and interestingly, 22 failures from patches already applied... |
| 04:41.46 | sbromwich | ohhhhh kay, this is not something I'm going to be able to do tonight, I think... laters :-) |
| 04:42.04 | sdodson | the droid community seems really interested in running 2.6.32 |
| 04:42.16 | sdodson | didn't catch why they were so fond of 2.6.32 |
| 04:44.46 | lingfish | sbromwich: nice command... should I expect to see mine step down having just done the 600mhz patch? |
| 04:46.04 | lingfish | idw2k|wirc: also, add -d to your watch command, even better. |
| 04:47.00 | raster | rwhitby: illume is used on shr, illume2 is a cleanup and modularisation of it. its expected that you provide your own "indicator", "softkey", "home" and "quickpanel" app windows. even your own vkbd (tho if u have qwerty kdb's u dont need this) |
| 04:47.15 | raster | the demo home/indicator/softkey etc. are not meant to be brilliant |
| 04:47.17 | raster | just demo placeholder |
| 04:47.24 | raster | need to do really good replacements some time |
| 04:47.36 | raster | tho that will likely wait for e18 and when elementary gets sucked into e's core |
| 04:47.43 | idw2k|wirc | can I run that from terminal on the pre? |
| 04:48.14 | lingfish | sbromwich: mine isn't stepping down :( |
| 04:48.43 | lingfish | idw2k|wirc: dunno.. I'd use ssh to it. |
| 04:49.13 | lingfish | although.. there's a chance that the watch/cat commands themselves would make it never step down.. |
| 04:49.20 | sbromwich | just stopping by on my way to bed... that command I cut and pasted only shows you the stats, it doesn't change anything |
| 04:49.23 | idw2k|wirc | yeah, don't have access to a pc at the moment |
| 04:50.10 | sbromwich | http://forums.precentral.net/palm-pre/239159-huge-battery-improvement-after-800-mhz-patch-2.html has my settings, change the 8 to a 6 if you are running a stock kernel. |
| 04:50.17 | lingfish | sbromwich: realise that... but yeah, mine isn't stepping :( |
| 04:50.46 | sbromwich | cat /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_governor |
| 04:51.01 | sbromwich | if it comes back userspace you're using the palm power daemon |
| 04:51.16 | sbromwich | if it comes back ondemand you're using the ondemand power scheduler |
| 04:51.41 | sbromwich | and in which case double check /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_min_freq to make sure that's not set too high |
| 04:51.48 | lingfish | sbromwich: yep, userspace. |
| 04:51.56 | sbromwich | there's your problem. |
| 04:52.08 | idw2k|wirc | I'm going to have to try it. After three hours of browsing and texting I'm down to 30% battery. which is unacceptable |
| 04:52.15 | lingfish | So the ipk patch for 600mhz simply ramps it up full time to 600... and doesn't step the CPU |
| 04:52.17 | sbromwich | echo ondemand > /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_governor |
| 04:52.25 | sbromwich | bummer |
| 04:52.26 | lingfish | This is very bad, no? |
| 04:52.32 | sbromwich | it's not brilliant |
| 04:52.44 | *** join/#webos-internals JayCanuck (~chatzilla@S010600111186b639.wp.shawcable.net) |
| 04:52.47 | idw2k|wirc | and that's with the cpu scaling app on |
| 04:52.58 | sbromwich | I forgot to plug my phone in last night... went from 96% charge to 89% charge over about 8 hours sat by my bed |
| 04:53.04 | lingfish | yep, straight away, even with -n 1, I'm seeing it step down |
| 04:53.20 | sbromwich | the -n 1 just means update once a second |
| 04:53.35 | sbromwich | watch -n 5 will update every 5 seconds |
| 04:53.50 | lingfish | I know what it means :P |
| 04:53.56 | sbromwich | ok |
| 04:54.05 | lingfish | What I was saying was that running the cat every sec may stop it from stepping down... but it doesn't. |
| 04:54.11 | sbromwich | no |
| 04:54.16 | lingfish | I just woke my Pre up and blam, 600 counters started ticking |
| 04:54.24 | lingfish | so awesome, best of both worlds |
| 04:54.36 | sbromwich | if /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/ondemand/sampling_rate is set too high it will burn too much cpu (and battery) power |
| 04:54.48 | sbromwich | 20000 works for me |
| 04:54.50 | lingfish | so in reality, even without the 600 patch or others, ondemand should stupidly improve batt life |
| 04:54.58 | sbromwich | the rest of my settings are in the thread anyway |
| 04:55.10 | lingfish | 200000 |
| 04:55.14 | lingfish | that's my default |
| 04:55.19 | sbromwich | yes, with the caveat you will probably be tempted to use the phone more now and will therefore burn through battery just as much (but get more done) |
| 04:55.33 | lingfish | heh |
| 04:55.41 | lingfish | I'm just surprised the 600 patch doesn't turn ondemand on... |
| 04:55.45 | lingfish | bizarre choice there. |
| 04:56.10 | sbromwich | I would recommend looking at a fusion add-on battery... usb output on a tiny 500mAh lithium battery of some flavour |
| 04:56.17 | lingfish | Any recommended way to presist that across reboots? ie is there an rc script already that does proc related settings? |
| 04:56.35 | sbromwich | or the iGo plug-in green battery doobrie, but that's more of a brick |
| 04:56.53 | sbromwich | yeah, read down that page and it has another cut and paste dealie |
| 04:57.09 | lingfish | k |
| 04:57.22 | sbromwich | I don't know that I'd recommend it, but It Works For Me. |
| 04:57.41 | lingfish | Don't see why not.. if the ceiling is 600, why the hell wouldn't you wanna scale your CPU... |
| 04:57.48 | sbromwich | dunno |
| 04:57.54 | lingfish | Can only do good, not harm (with the right ceiling) |
| 04:58.03 | sbromwich | also install powertop and see what that says |
| 04:58.17 | sbromwich | increate the writeback flush time and what not |
| 04:58.23 | sbromwich | anyway... I am headed off to bed |
| 04:58.31 | sbromwich | and hopefully this time I will remember to plug in my phone |
| 04:58.35 | lingfish | k |
| 04:58.35 | sbromwich | night :-) |
| 05:00.29 | lingfish | yeah.. that fucks up video :( |
| 05:00.52 | lingfish | bummer. |
| 05:01.42 | *** join/#webos-internals sslow (~sslow___@c-76-105-120-135.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) |
| 05:03.03 | lingfish | big bummer. |
| 05:09.53 | lingfish | SO the tradeoff is.. use ondemand with almost whatever values, and get better batt life & suckier overall "highspeed app" perf, or leave ondemand alone and get suckier batt life. |
| 05:11.45 | lingfish | I'm just boggled at this.. I can't beleieve Palm don't do scaling out of the box! |
| 05:12.04 | lingfish | s/boggled/perplexed |
| 05:17.56 | geist | i forget the details |
| 05:17.59 | *** join/#webos-internals TheInvsbleMan (~a44caf3d@gateway/web/freenode/x-ixuzcydsaqtguztu) |
| 05:17.59 | geist | but there was some reason for it |
| 05:18.05 | lingfish | totally flabbergasted. |
| 05:18.11 | lingfish | ?!?! |
| 05:18.24 | lingfish | SpeedStep is well and truly proven in the laptop area... |
| 05:18.44 | lingfish | So it's safe to assume it does no scaling out of the box? |
| 05:19.24 | geist | it's not so simple |
| 05:20.00 | lingfish | Well to me, it really is. You scale, and when more grunt is needed, you scale up. When an app like Video loads, it makes a call to say "basically I'm gonna need all the grunt I can get" |
| 05:20.10 | TheInvsbleMan | My friend just knocked my Pre off of a table... Cracked screen. Sad day. </venting> |
| 05:20.20 | geist | frequency scaling without the corresponding voltage scaling at more modern (leaky) technologies doesn't do anywhere nearly as much as you think |
| 05:20.20 | geist | and then there are a lot of frequencies (600 may be included) that severly desense the radio performance in certain bands |
| 05:20.21 | lingfish | TheInvsbleMan: ouch |
| 05:20.45 | TheInvsbleMan | Yea... I'm going to the Sprint store tomorrow. I have TEP but it's gonna be $100 |
| 05:21.10 | lingfish | TheInvsbleMan: hey, at least you're covered... if it happens to me (in .au) I'm basically stuffed, or have to mail it back to Hong Kong/Expansys |
| 05:21.38 | lingfish | geist: hrm. fair enough. Still doesn't compute to me. Guess I'll go back to userspace for now :( |
| 05:21.59 | TheInvsbleMan | Ahh I see. A lot of times Sprint will actually just replace it free, it just depends if they are feeling nice. |
| 05:22.14 | rwhitby | geist: do you know if there were any kernel changes from 1.4.0 to 1.4.1 ? |
| 05:22.21 | rwhitby | (the 1.4.1 patch is not up yet) |
| 05:22.22 | geist | not that i know of |
| 05:22.46 | TheInvsbleMan | Oh and by the way... when is the SMS tone per contact patch going to be ported to 1.4.1.1? |
| 05:22.53 | rwhitby | geist: the kernel was in the update package, but that could have been just an OE version bump or some ancilliary file |
| 05:22.54 | geist | for the omap we've been almost exclusively working towards getting it rebased on a newer code base |
| 05:23.08 | geist | then we can actually kick up TI's version of speedstep |
| 05:23.11 | geist | with the actual voltage scaling |
| 05:23.21 | lingfish | argh! I'm stuck at 125000 now.. wtf? |
| 05:23.25 | rwhitby | TheInvsbleMan: when the author of the patch, or some other interested party, ports it. |
| 05:23.30 | geist | trouble is the old .24 code base is severly broken with regards to that, so that it's not particuarly easy to use |
| 05:23.41 | geist | and thus since it's running at a single voltage, frequency scaling doesn't really get you anything |
| 05:23.59 | TheInvsbleMan | rwhitby: fair enough. It was actually the only one of my patches that didn't work. So I'm happy :) |
| 05:24.22 | lingfish | geist: I've set echo userspace > /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_governor, and am stuck at 125mhz |
| 05:24.33 | geist | lingfish: nice job |
| 05:24.34 | lingfish | should I have done the echo while it was at 600? |
| 05:24.42 | geist | probably |
| 05:24.50 | geist | userspace means 'stop trying to set it' |
| 05:24.56 | lingfish | heh, the Pre really sucks at 125 |
| 05:24.58 | geist | because userspace will set the speed |
| 05:25.28 | lingfish | ahhh, that's better. |
| 05:25.32 | geist | for some reason i remember that 600 wasn't good to run at. i'm thinking some sort of radio desense thing |
| 05:25.32 | TheInvsbleMan | Am I in the middle of you geniuses pushing the Pre past 800? :) |
| 05:25.38 | destinal | geist: but the stock image sets the clock to 600 when playing games.. |
| 05:25.42 | geist | and 550 was i think actually slower than 500 at certain thins |
| 05:25.57 | geist | destinal: i think the idea is if you're playing games you're probably not pulling a lot of data over the radio |
| 05:26.00 | lingfish | geist: overall, I've had zero issues at 600. |
| 05:26.01 | geist | and/or talking on the phone |
| 05:26.07 | destinal | geist: ok, fair enough |
| 05:27.00 | geist | problem with 600 is it has certain harmonics in interesting bands |
| 05:27.04 | geist | 1800/1900/2400, etc |
| 05:27.27 | geist | 500 straddles most of them |
| 05:27.56 | destinal | that would explain people maybe getting better battery life with 800 than 600 actually, since only the 2400 has a harmonic there |
| 05:28.17 | geist | nah, it wont affect battery life |
| 05:28.21 | geist | it'd be a radio performance thing |
| 05:28.27 | geist | well, unless the radio has to work a lot harder |
| 05:28.32 | lingfish | I want so bad to try 800... but if TI say that's above rating, I'm not going there. |
| 05:28.33 | destinal | right, that's what I was thinking |
| 05:28.43 | destinal | retransmits or power boosts |
| 05:28.46 | geist | but in general running faster with a leaky cpu that can gate itself down to zero (like the omap is) |
| 05:28.56 | geist | is better, because you in theory get the same amount of work done in less time |
| 05:29.13 | sslow | with dbsooner mia? is it still ok to push patch updates to his portal? |
| 05:29.19 | geist | that was not really the case in the 'old days' (like 5 years ago) when the dynamic current of an arm7 or arm9 would dominate the power |
| 05:29.30 | sslow | or shouldwe send them somewhere else? |
| 05:29.33 | geist | and as such you could slew the clock rate aound and get a proportional amount of current draw |
| 05:29.46 | Jack87 | idw2k|wirc: are you there |
| 05:29.50 | geist | nowdays the newer arms are very leaky, esp as they get into 45 nm |
| 05:30.03 | geist | so you want to run them hard at any given voltage and then power gate them hard |
| 05:30.18 | geist | so scaling the frequency doesn't really do a lot except keep the cpu on longer |
| 05:30.35 | geist | *unless* you can scale the frequency such that you drop to lower voltages, which then changes the base current draw |
| 05:30.46 | rwhitby | yeah, 50% of the execution time at power X is better than 100% of the execution time at 80% of X |
| 05:31.00 | Jack87 | idw2k|wirc: I saw you telling someone they cant get more battery with increased clock speed. but i to have experienced improvements in battery life and i will explain why |
| 05:31.04 | geist | right |
| 05:31.10 | dtzWill | phil_bw: yep adding that mouse support is on my list. and... shouldn't be a big deal. maybe in the next week i'll have a chance. no promises :) |
| 05:31.13 | geist | Jack87: take most of that with a grain of salt |
| 05:31.28 | geist | you'd have to do a real full experimental setup with multiple devices and very controlled experimets to really say so |
| 05:32.05 | Jack87 | thats just the thing geist a controlled experiment will make battery life suffer on faster |
| 05:32.07 | dtzWill | phil_bw: but don't you think gesture+tap should be in there somewhere? (just wondering). anyway, the biggest reason it's not in there is a)time but b)i haven't sat down and worked out a reasonable system. like maybe there should be a way to move the mouse and not click/drag, etc. |
| 05:32.23 | geist | well uncontrolled experiments are even worse |
| 05:32.33 | geist | because you can't really draw any real conclusions from it, except what you feel |
| 05:32.41 | destinal | Jack87: well you could have a benchmark that ran it like "real world" usage, but it would have to be consistent and reproducable |
| 05:32.43 | geist | which is nice in all, but does not a proof make |
| 05:32.46 | destinal | which real everyday use is not |
| 05:33.01 | geist | right, you have to pick a certain set of use cases and go with that |
| 05:33.10 | geist | and hope you cover most of the good ones |
| 05:33.14 | dtzWill | sbromwich: you trying to run a later kernel on the pre? :) |
| 05:33.15 | Jack87 | idw2k|wirc geist The everyday tasks you do throughout the day are done much faster and smoother now.. meaning less waiting while pre screen is on. as much of a hit the speed is taking on battery the longer the screen is on the bigger the hit the battery takes |
| 05:33.52 | phil_bw | bloody hell, wirc chimed at me |
| 05:33.52 | Jack87 | so if your tasks are done quick and that means the quicker you can hit the power button to shut off screen or whatever method you use the longer the battery lasts with the less wait time for tasks to complete |
| 05:34.01 | geist | i seriously doubt the bump from 500->600 makes any substantial delay time go down |
| 05:34.07 | Jack87 | destinal: yes! exactly... so its totally hard to reporduce. |
| 05:34.19 | phil_bw | dtzWill: I just realized gesture tap gets me to the menu I needed |
| 05:34.19 | geist | like, you probably wont put the device back in your pocket that much faster |
| 05:34.34 | dtzWill | phil_bw: does it? gesture is 'control' for what it's worth, so perhaps that works :) |
| 05:34.50 | Jack87 | geist: sorry i am talking about 720MHz Kernel maybe even 800MHz but 720 is fine so no reason to sacrifice battery with 800MHz |
| 05:34.51 | phil_bw | ah, this is in e 16 |
| 05:34.59 | geist | Jack87: i wont even talk about 720 or 800 |
| 05:35.05 | geist | at that point you are just buying time with your device |
| 05:35.07 | *** join/#webos-internals sjanssen (~sjanssen@cpe-76-84-105-163.neb.res.rr.com) |
| 05:35.09 | geist | you *will* burn it out faster |
| 05:35.12 | geist | just takes time |
| 05:35.14 | phil_bw | what would be *nice* would simply be a way to pan around |
| 05:35.17 | geist | ergo, do what you want |
| 05:35.29 | sslow | with dbsooner mia? is it still ok to push patch updates to his portal? |
| 05:35.31 | sslow | V |
| 05:35.37 | sslow | or shouldwe send them somewhere else? |
| 05:35.44 | dtzWill | phil_bw: well glad that gets you by for now. improved mouse support is definitely on the TODO, as I mentioned mostly held up by sitting down and working out a reasonable system that works for most use cases. |
| 05:35.44 | phil_bw | so say set the res higher then gesture + drag to move around (kind of like sdlvnc) |
| 05:35.49 | rwhitby | sslow: still send them there - I can work with them from there |
| 05:36.00 | sslow | rwh |
| 05:36.00 | destinal | geist: yup, going above the datasheet specfications is bound to shorten the lifespan, and you're just gambling at that point as to how much |
| 05:36.22 | rwhitby | yep, 100K hours to 50K hours just by running at 600MHz continuously |
| 05:36.24 | sslow | rwhitby: ok thanks.. Ihave about10 to send |
| 05:36.34 | phil_bw | dtzWill, I'd love to help if I can, I too am kinda pressed for time though |
| 05:36.37 | dtzWill | phil_bw: it's not clear to me that higher resolution is absolutely the best, but i'm open to the idea. i suppose it would make applications that don't play nice at small resolutions more usable |
| 05:36.45 | geist | right. and it'll vary depending on the particular part |
| 05:36.57 | geist | could be you lucked out and got a die that was actually binned for a higher freq |
| 05:36.58 | dtzWill | phil_bw: understood, aren't we all :D. but all the ideas you feel like throwing at me the better, so feel free to keep them coming :) |
| 05:37.03 | geist | but you can't assert that it's safe across the board |
| 05:37.08 | geist | usual overclocker stuff |
| 05:37.24 | rwhitby | down again to 44K hours for a 720 binned part (which you might be lucky to have based on inventory that day at TI), and who knows how much lower for 800MHz |
| 05:37.45 | lingfish | So y'all are basically saying, don't OC. |
| 05:37.48 | geist | right. i would generally assume that newer cpus are probably 'better' |
| 05:37.53 | phil_bw | dtzWill: my biggest issue is a window going off the screen then having to basically wrangle it over into viewing space so I can say... close it |
| 05:38.01 | lingfish | Even though I'd heard here that the proc the Pre is using is rated to 600mhz by TI |
| 05:38.07 | geist | but who knows, they could have used an old set of dies sitting in a warehouse |
| 05:38.13 | rwhitby | one would assume that the 3440 and 3430 are the same die, with just binning involved |
| 05:38.21 | rwhitby | but yeah, inventory rules. |
| 05:38.26 | geist | yeah, same with 3530 |
| 05:38.37 | rwhitby | lingfish: 600 is "overdrive" |
| 05:38.38 | geist | it's pretty much the same as 3430, just marketed differently |
| 05:38.40 | destinal | lingfish: 600 is rated by TI and supported by palm for games, it may or may not cause radio interference while you're doing it |
| 05:38.58 | lingfish | I've not experienced any issues call wise... |
| 05:39.00 | geist | and it pushes the envelope of those particular cpus |
| 05:39.03 | lingfish | I mean the longevity of the device |
| 05:39.06 | dtzWill | phil_bw: window managers like icewm, and particularly matchbox (matchbox seems to do a better job for whatever reason) can help with that |
| 05:39.16 | geist | right, you wont. you'll hit it in n months or whatnot |
| 05:39.23 | destinal | and yeah, if you run at 500, your device will live longer :) |
| 05:39.26 | phil_bw | dtzWill: I've been trying to find a decent window manager with a pager to fix that problem but so far no luck. e 16 is as close as I can get but the pager won't stay on top |
| 05:39.30 | idw2k|wirc | I didn't say better battery life wasn't possible. I said "vastly" improved battery life wasn't credible *solely* from a 40% clock speed boost. |
| 05:39.33 | Jack87 | I to was very skeptical at first but figgured id bite the bullet. Not going to do 800MHz but I feel as though at 720 i am fairly safe. with the screen not being on as long the phone also runs much cooler. |
| 05:39.42 | sslow | in this day and time whos going to keep a device more than 1 yr? |
| 05:39.45 | rwhitby | lingfish: yeah, longevity is a topic that that us Australians are concerned about - those on Sprint just get a new device every couple of months it seems. |
| 05:39.46 | idw2k|wirc | and I stand by that. |
| 05:40.02 | rwhitby | sslow: my last phone was a Treo 650 which I used for 6 years straight |
| 05:40.05 | geist | Jack87: it's not really the overall device temperature, it's the temp inside the die |
| 05:40.06 | phil_bw | dtzWill: I use IceWM primarily but it has no virtual desktop functionality |
| 05:40.11 | lingfish | rwhitby: yeah exactly... hence... my confusion. Should I just rip out my 600mhz patch or no? |
| 05:40.31 | rwhitby | lingfish: 600MHz is guaranteed 50K hours by TI |
| 05:40.32 | dtzWill | phil_bw: sure it does. mine did anyway? |
| 05:40.32 | Jack87 | rwhitby: very much true its a lot easier here to take the risk and get a new device if needed |
| 05:40.53 | idw2k|wirc | overclocking *plus* scaling might produce slightly better battery life for *some* users. |
| 05:41.02 | lingfish | so 2,083 days constant use |
| 05:41.11 | Jack87 | geist: you work for palm right? if i recall correctly? |
| 05:41.13 | lingfish | 5 years |
| 05:41.16 | dtzWill | phil_bw: http://wdtz.org/pre_x/xchat1.png you can see the pager in the bottom--just two, but sitll |
| 05:41.19 | dtzWill | s/sitll/still/ |
| 05:41.26 | dtzWill | ~botsnack |
| 05:41.26 | infobot | thanks, dtzWill |
| 05:41.35 | lingfish | rwhitby: I can live with 5 years, constant |
| 05:41.41 | sslow | rwhitby: thats 52k hrs if you never turned it off |
| 05:41.42 | rwhitby | doubts that anyone here is making an official palm statement about anything |
| 05:41.45 | dtzWill | but also that's a good demonstration of it not working well with cutting it off the edge. |
| 05:41.58 | dtzWill | phil_bw: if you didn't poke at the scripts related already, you might prefer the landscape orientation, it depends on the app. |
| 05:41.59 | sslow | are we saying w oc we wont get 50k hrs |
| 05:42.16 | dtzWill | phil_bw: randr support for rotating on the fly is also on the TODO |
| 05:42.18 | lingfish | sslow: they seem to be saying at 600mhz, you'll get 50K |
| 05:42.25 | idw2k|wirc | FWIW, the 800MHz kernel absolutely kills my battery life. to the point that if I can't find a solution I'll remove it despite the performance gains. |
| 05:42.28 | dtzWill | wishes more people were working on this, so many cool things to be done |
| 05:42.37 | rwhitby | sslow: depends on your device. you might have got lucky and got a rebadged 800MHz-binned 3440 |
| 05:42.46 | Jack87 | rwhitby: haha ya. but person's personal creditability on such subjects does make a difference. there is never official palm statements here thats i already known and very clear |
| 05:42.51 | sslow | i can live w/ those #s |
| 05:43.06 | rwhitby | sslow: or you might have got a low-end 600MHz device which just made the 600MHz bin |
| 05:43.17 | sslow | youcan buy a used pre for 175.00 usd |
| 05:43.36 | Jack87 | dtzWill: what are you working on? |
| 05:43.36 | phil_bw | dtzWill: one step ahead on that, I copied the package and modified the second one so I've got two separate icons now, one for portrait, one for landscape, btw I don't see a pager in that screenshot |
| 05:43.39 | rwhitby | sslow: all depends on what TI had in inventory on the day that Palm's manufacturing house got shipped the chips |
| 05:44.02 | dtzWill | phil_bw: on the bottom next to the terminal icon. the two rectangles. |
| 05:44.23 | destinal | dtzWill: by the wanting more people hacking on it, you mean X? |
| 05:44.27 | dtzWill | phil_bw: next to the minimized terminal i mean |
| 05:44.30 | dtzWill | destinal: haha yeah :) |
| 05:44.36 | *** join/#webos-internals wdtz__ (~w@99-4-167-164.lightspeed.caryil.sbcglobal.net) |
| 05:44.36 | lingfish | See, back to my rant of all time (on my blog, forums etc). Palm just really need to fully use the GPU and I personally would be happy. I don't think the Pre is slow at "doing" stuff... I just think the GUI is laggy and crap. You goto a iCrap phone and the smoothmess of all the graphical work just shits all over the Pre, and its the same CPU/GPU (from what I know) |
| 05:44.43 | dtzWill | destinal: and related packages, etc, that build upon it :D :P |
| 05:44.56 | dtzWill | phil_bw: heh, two icons is a nice idea. |
| 05:44.56 | lingfish | I still maintain that the Pre simply looks like Windows when you disable DirectX. |
| 05:44.59 | rwhitby | Jack87: I think credibility on this subject would be based on your job description, not just on whether you work at Palm. I doubt a high-level mojo software engineer at Palm will know more than an experienced ASIC developer here who does not work at Palm for the matter at hand. |
| 05:45.35 | destinal | dtzWill: it would be cool to be able to transparently run the N900's hildon binaries :) |
| 05:45.40 | rwhitby | notes that some of present company are experienced kernel engineers and ASIC developers |
| 05:45.56 | phil_bw | dtzWill: aren't those just separate desktops? not actual virtual ones where one extends on the other? |
| 05:45.56 | Jack87 | still wonders of geist works for palm :) |
| 05:46.18 | lingfish | is tempted to just privmsg and ask ;) |
| 05:46.24 | lingfish | ... and then beg for what I just said above |
| 05:46.26 | lingfish | heh. |
| 05:46.37 | rwhitby | knows the answer, but finds it polite not to ask in public |
| 05:46.58 | lingfish | noted. |
| 05:47.00 | lingfish | :P |
| 05:47.04 | geist | yes |
| 05:47.06 | geist | i do |
| 05:47.07 | idw2k|wirc | utilizing the gpu isn't simply a matter of changing "useGPU n" to "useGPU y" |
| 05:47.13 | Jack87 | haha ok :) |
| 05:47.34 | Jack87 | geist: ya i thought we talked about stuff in the past wasnt sure. |
| 05:47.49 | lingfish | idw2k|wirc: I know that too -- but it is the BIGGEST improvement they could make...surely less power drain, and speedier than doing it all through CPU |
| 05:48.16 | TheInvsbleMan | idw2k|wirc: that would be awesome if it was though! :) |
| 05:48.17 | lingfish | And a good time investment for the userbase. |
| 05:48.19 | dtzWill | phil_bw: ! yes, i'm unfamiliar with what you mean then, unfortunately. |
| 05:48.20 | lingfish | and their impressions |
| 05:48.33 | destinal | geist has castle-building experience :) |
| 05:48.49 | dtzWill | phil_bw: oh you mean viewing area >> view? |
| 05:48.56 | rwhitby | notes that our autobuilder is called 'mason' |
| 05:49.03 | dtzWill | phil_bw: errr the virtual desktop so X has it bigger than the viewport |
| 05:49.25 | TheInvsbleMan | lol clever rwhitby |
| 05:49.34 | rwhitby | destinal: so any other kernel patches or config changes you think should go in our uber-kernel? |
| 05:49.49 | rwhitby | (all must be disabled by default) |
| 05:49.52 | phil_bw | dtzWill: if you check out enlightenment (e16) the desktop space is doubled and a pager lets you switch "sides" and see your overhanging windows... IceWM with that feature would be perfect |
| 05:50.21 | dtzWill | phil_bw: that's interesting abstraction for a window manager to provide. never played with that :). |
| 05:50.29 | destinal | rwhitby: well, I want to get to the bottom of why I can't get USB OTG to enumerate on castle, if it takes kernel mods, then they should go in our kernel |
| 05:50.31 | dtzWill | also abiword works rather well xD |
| 05:50.33 | lingfish | Alas... I don't get why there's zero noise about my GPU rant, over time. Perhaps it's near to impossible due to current codebase design. |
| 05:50.34 | phil_bw | dtzWill: basically |
| 05:50.40 | destinal | rwhitby: I haven't played with it in a while though |
| 05:50.53 | dtzWill | should package up abiword for rick_home lol |
| 05:51.08 | dtzWill | err i think he was the one that REALLY wanted a word processor |
| 05:51.12 | raster | dtzWill: virtual desktops "intereasting abstraction" ? that's like been the most fundamental thing x11 wm's have done for the past 2 decades |
| 05:51.20 | destinal | looks around for his microUSB A adapter |
| 05:51.40 | chrisa | lingfish: As much as I dislike feeding the trolls; What gpu rant? |
| 05:52.17 | lingfish | chrisa: scrollback. |
| 05:52.18 | phil_bw | abiword, heh, I'm rockin the OpenOffice ;) |
| 05:52.38 | destinal | phil_bw: /me *shudders* |
| 05:52.47 | phil_bw | haha |
| 05:53.06 | phil_bw | I installed it as an experiment then it proved to work rather well |
| 05:53.13 | phil_bw | shocked the hell out of me.. |
| 05:53.15 | idw2k|wirc | you also have to consider that in future devices, u |
| 05:53.20 | destinal | phil_bw: it works well on the pre? |
| 05:53.25 | geist | keep in mind the gpu is not trivial to utilize |
| 05:53.32 | dtzWill | raster: errr i think i misunderstood? the "Abstraction" i was commenting on wasn't virtual desktops per se, but taking the fact that yuo can extend one window onto another and provide a ui that shows it as multiple 'views' into the same thing. |
| 05:53.34 | geist | and has its own power consumption issues |
| 05:53.35 | chrisa | Oh, just a feature request |
| 05:53.36 | chrisa | meh |
| 05:53.46 | phil_bw | destinal: it does, I'm going to post a video of it running tomorrow |
| 05:53.53 | idw2k|wirc | processor speed increases will overtake the UI lag |
| 05:54.02 | lingfish | geist: sure... but hey, that's the great thing about an abstraction layer like DirectX (not suggesting DX should be implemented, but still...) |
| 05:54.12 | geist | lingfish: opengl |
| 05:54.13 | TheInvsbleMan | 800MHz=no UI lag :) |
| 05:54.14 | dtzWill | raster: with more thought that does seem to be exactly what many wm's do, but I didn't view it that way I suppose, particularly because I'm generally more a fan of having distinct workspaces, and so my mindset and usage reflects that |
| 05:54.16 | geist | but that's the easy part |
| 05:54.19 | lingfish | geist: indeed. |
| 05:54.29 | geist | the hard part is plugging the entire rendering engine into the gpu |
| 05:54.31 | dtzWill | raster: didn't mean to be judgemental :) |
| 05:54.33 | lingfish | geist: so you're basically saying it'll never happen? |
| 05:54.34 | geist | cause with gpus it tends to be all or nothing |
| 05:54.40 | geist | lingfish: i'm not saying anything of the sort |
| 05:54.46 | lingfish | heh. |
| 05:54.51 | geist | do not read more into what i say than the pure technical details |
| 05:54.52 | lingfish | "anytime soon" |
| 05:54.59 | raster | dtzWill: thats a bi-produce of desktops ebing a grid and thus a window half on one and half on another.. literally will do just that - when u flip :) |
| 05:55.00 | lingfish | yeah ok. |
| 05:55.02 | dtzWill | phil_bw: you using jdk too then? or jdk-free? |
| 05:55.04 | geist | if you start talking like that i'll have to go away |
| 05:55.20 | geist | so please stick to technical details if you want to fish |
| 05:55.24 | destinal | geist: have you ever played with USB OTG on the pre? By echo otg > /sys/devices/platform/musb_hdrc/mode or whichever device it was, I could get it to power up devices that were plugged in, but not enumerate them |
| 05:55.26 | phil_bw | dtzWill: jdk for what? |
| 05:55.35 | raster | that is - of course, if u look at them as a grid of virtual screens glued together in a 2d array |
| 05:55.42 | raster | as opposed to - as u say, distinct workareas |
| 05:55.43 | geist | destinal: doesn't have the requisite voltage regulator to be a host |
| 05:55.49 | raster | e16 has both of these concepts |
| 05:55.54 | raster | multiple and virtual desktops |
| 05:56.07 | dtzWill | raster: yeah, it seems silly when i think of it that way, thanks for making sure things were clear :). sorry to suggest enlightenment did anything something odd, not my intention |
| 05:56.10 | lingfish | geist: understood, apologies. So, the rendering engine would need a complete rewrite, in order to talk opengl |
| 05:56.12 | destinal | geist: ah so that could result in powering them up but not signalling? |
| 05:56.13 | raster | multiple == the workspaces u talk about, virtual == grid of screens within 1 multiple desktop |
| 05:56.19 | geist | destinal: perhaps |
| 05:56.28 | dtzWill | raster: ah, I do got those terms mixed up unfortunately. |
| 05:56.39 | raster | dtzWill: oh no - dont apologize. i just thought it was odd u found virtual desktops ... odd :) |
| 05:56.43 | phil_bw | if the bloody pager in e 16 would stay on top it'd be a winner |
| 05:56.44 | raster | i know |
| 05:56.46 | raster | peole mix them up |
| 05:56.54 | raster | e17 doesnt have "virtual desktops" |
| 05:56.58 | raster | its just workspaces in a grid |
| 05:57.01 | raster | i simplified it |
| 05:57.10 | dtzWill | raster: thanks for the explanation. is that terminology used across different wm's and general X work? |
| 05:57.56 | phil_bw | there are very *few* wms that use virtual desktops, most are archaic and ugggly |
| 05:58.06 | lingfish | chrisa: heh, I wouldn't call it that, but anyway. |
| 05:58.17 | *** join/#webos-internals rider (~441b6ec1@gateway/web/freenode/x-oqmyclrlftamwgcj) |
| 05:58.25 | dtzWill | phil_bw: to be clear you do mean virtual desktops as raster is meaning, as well as what you meant earlier? |
| 05:59.19 | phil_bw | dtzWill: yes, an extended desktop with a pager to access it, so when a large window goes off the screen you can go get it |
| 05:59.29 | lingfish | chrisa: geist: I would have assumed that utilising a specialist chip (ie. the GPU) for that type of work would result in less net power draw? |
| 06:00.11 | raster | dtzWill: that i'm not sure of. there's quite a variation, multiple desktops, virtualdesktops and workspaces are all terms used by various wm's |
| 06:01.01 | Jack87 | hum. raster i feel like each one of those terms are completely different meanings |
| 06:01.16 | Jack87 | raster: |
| 06:01.58 | dtzWill | raster: yeah, and I suppose that makes sense. the things used internally aren't necessarily the same ideas/concepts/etc that you want to provide to the user as part of what you're going for. anyway, just wondering so I can get my terminology straight :) |
| 06:02.12 | raster | geist: plugging your whole rendering ui into the gpu isn't too hard... if u designed your rendering layer right :) |
| 06:02.35 | lingfish | I suppose the power draw matters to what GPU .... eg. PC GPUs are super power hungry... but they get driven stupidly hard |
| 06:02.40 | raster | Jack87: workspaces and multiple desktops - to me are the same thing. virtual i look at as being " a big screen i pan around" |
| 06:03.00 | raster | as such xf8t6 uses to support virtual fb resolutiosn - thus why i see virtual as meing big thing u pan around |
| 06:03.13 | raster | multiple/workspace == "several ov them with no geometry relative to eachother" |
| 06:03.18 | raster | but thats me |
| 06:03.30 | phil_bw | raster, you have it 100% right |
| 06:03.44 | dtzWill | phil_bw: by jdk i meant jre, which is an optional depndency that i think many distros make required, not 100% sure of what features it drives |
| 06:03.49 | *** join/#webos-internals sslow (~sslow___@c-76-105-120-135.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) |
| 06:03.58 | Jack87 | raster: Makes sense and indeed now that you mention it those are very much known that way |
| 06:03.59 | phil_bw | though most people don't use a virtual desktop so they think workspaces |
| 06:04.03 | raster | i'm biased by decades of my head being buried into graphics :) |
| 06:04.07 | dtzWill | phil_bw: by 100% i mean not sure at all, just that i find it exactly as usable and starts faster if i disable it using a jre |
| 06:05.17 | phil_bw | dtzWill: I really don't know... installed OpenOffice via apt-get and let it go all night. Not sure what it installed |
| 06:08.55 | dtzWill | phil_bw: try disabling the jre in the menu (tools->options- |
| 06:09.07 | dtzWill | phil_bw: * options, java, 'use a java runtime environment' |
| 06:09.23 | phil_bw | ah |
| 06:09.27 | dtzWill | phil_bw: errr do what you want but might be worth looking into since that's a lot of stuff you probably don't need. |
| 06:09.46 | phil_bw | I'll check it out |
| 06:09.58 | phil_bw | will fire it up right now |
| 06:10.07 | dtzWill | phil_bw: as you decide to, didn't mean to be pushy :D. also super glad you're enjoying it and finding it useful :) |
| 06:10.53 | *** join/#webos-internals nekrox (~nekro@unaffiliated/nekrox) |
| 06:11.14 | phil_bw | dtzWill: it felt like christmas when I discovered the native x server, until then I was using vnc and a local tight server |
| 06:11.53 | phil_bw | just wish the startup script could start my window manager |
| 06:12.05 | dtzWill | phil_bw: why can't it? chroot, etc? |
| 06:12.20 | phil_bw | it just wont |
| 06:12.52 | dtzWill | phil_bw: also icewm is already ported, it just needs packaging. so it could have a launcher icon too :) |
| 06:12.52 | phil_bw | end up just firing off a script from the terminal that does the job then close it |
| 06:13.24 | phil_bw | nice, though I kind of like having all of my apps on the debian side |
| 06:13.30 | phil_bw | easier to manage |
| 06:13.37 | dtzWill | phil_bw: i'm curious why not, that doesn't seem right. which script are you adding it to, and how'd it fail? |
| 06:14.13 | dtzWill | phil_bw: I agree, but also that's not something that is probably super usable for users, particularly if they just want an app or two. I'm not sure of the best way to do it--I also rather enjoy just having a large debian image and apt-get'ing away |
| 06:14.22 | phil_bw | it's just doing the regular chroot command with icewm --display :0:0 tacked on it |
| 06:14.55 | dtzWill | phil_bw: from the chroot you'll want DISPLAY=localhost:0.0 not just :0.0. although the fact that it works from the xterm is .. curious |
| 06:15.13 | phil_bw | dtzWill: yeah for regular users it's a dif story, but for me I like it |
| 06:15.33 | dtzWill | phil_bw: i'm not familiar with icewm's --display argument, but I'd assume it's the same as setting the DISPLAY env var, in which case what I said is required. |
| 06:16.01 | dtzWill | phil_bw: also i'm not excited at porting everything over myself.... I'm not ready to launch effectively my own distro.... lol |
| 06:16.04 | phil_bw | dtzWill: I tried the env var in a chroot command, didn't like it |
| 06:16.48 | dtzWill | phil_bw: works great for m----oh you mean in the command. i haven't tried scripting it, no |
| 06:17.04 | phil_bw | dtzWill: don't blame ya, I've thought about just packaging a clean img file with the basics and configuring it to make with your server, then distributing that |
| 06:17.49 | rwhitby | considers an org.webosinternals.debian-chroot package ... |
| 06:18.28 | phil_bw | just install the ipk, drop the img on the pre via usb, click the icon |
| 06:18.45 | phil_bw | let the users apt-get to their hearts content |
| 06:19.13 | dtzWill | phil_bw, rwhitby: that would be great. although might be nice if we shipped the img via preware, shrug. compressed the image wouldn't be TOO large, although i understand that maybe even so that's a bit rough. |
| 06:19.35 | rwhitby | a minimal debian image should be small |
| 06:19.46 | rwhitby | no reason why we couldn't do it |
| 06:20.07 | phil_bw | dtzWill, rwhitby, that's all that's stopped me, don't want a huge image being sucked down using up my bandwidth |
| 06:20.08 | rwhitby | Preware Alpha now has download progress meters ;) |
| 06:20.13 | dtzWill | we probably would want to include some graphical front-end to apt-get as well |
| 06:20.26 | rwhitby | phil_bw: OSUOSL has plenty of bandwidth |
| 06:20.44 | phil_bw | I mean a 500mb img is about as minimal as you can get |
| 06:20.56 | phil_bw | rwhitby, true... |
| 06:21.39 | dtzWill | rwhitby: how is preware alpha coming along? I'm a little ashamed i haven't given it a try myself :[ |
| 06:21.58 | rwhitby | dtzWill: no logic bugs found yet in a couple of days of public alpha testing |
| 06:22.19 | phil_bw | man I should go to sleep |
| 06:22.35 | rwhitby | dtzWill: I presume you've seen http://bit.ly/holy-grail-of-homebrew |
| 06:23.06 | phil_bw | dtzWill: if you need some X related beta testing just drop me a line at phil@boraware.com |
| 06:23.56 | dtzWill | phil_bw: fwiw, "DISPLAY=localhost:0.0 chroot /media/cf matchbox-session &" at the end of start.sh for the xorg-server package works great here |
| 06:24.19 | dtzWill | phil_bw: and i'm glad you suggested that, I'm rather fond of having that start automagically, not sure why I didn't scrit it earlier :) |
| 06:24.49 | dtzWill | phil_bw: thanks for offering, i'll definitely keep you in the loop. and you already ARE participating in the beta testing :D |
| 06:25.42 | dtzWill | rwhitby: yes i have! and thanks for giving X a bit of exposure ;). |
| 06:25.43 | phil_bw | goes and modifies the start script real quick before going to bed |
| 06:25.55 | rwhitby | dtzWill: cross-marketing FTW |
| 06:26.11 | dtzWill | rwhitby: :D |
| 06:26.33 | dtzWill | rwhitby: I had a question though: the merging of them seems like it could potentially be even better? |
| 06:27.00 | rwhitby | dtzWill: shame on you for espousing the windows way instead of the unix way |
| 06:27.06 | rwhitby | -) |
| 06:27.08 | rwhitby | ;-) |
| 06:27.09 | dtzWill | rwhitby: save/restore saving the fact that app X (heh) is installed, but distinctly saving the state of X itself |
| 06:27.59 | rwhitby | dtzWill: save/restore is just saving the application data for Preware. just add a script to make it save the application data for X too |
| 06:28.09 | dtzWill | rwhitby: I resent your comment, I'm not necessarily suggesting the apps are merged, but.. well just that it did seem oddly cyclical |
| 06:28.28 | dtzWill | rwhitby: well it can't restore X until X is installed, so after a doctor you restore preware, install all, then restore the app's state |
| 06:29.24 | dtzWill | rwhitby: let me take a few steps back and make sure it's completely clear that that this whole setup is wonderful and I'm very excited about it. my discussions/suggestions are very distinct from that sentiment :) |
| 06:29.55 | rwhitby | dtzWill: yeah, there is a bit of interdependency going on. but I do need to keep up the pretence that there is no plan for preware to rule the universe |
| 06:30.07 | rwhitby | dtzWill: you did see the smiley after my windows comment, right? |
| 06:30.09 | dtzWill | rwhitby: maybe what you have setup is in fact the best way to do it cleanly, keeping separation of functionality which I assume you were referring to as unix/windows philosophy. |
| 06:30.28 | dtzWill | rwhitby: I suppose I did not :D which is odd because I love me my emoticons |
| 06:30.48 | rwhitby | EEMOTFAIL |
| 06:31.14 | dtzWill | rwhitby: regardless I'm not sure I see a better way necessarily, just commenting that the restore process was unnecessarily extra steps, I suppose is all I was trying to say :) |
| 06:31.19 | rwhitby | dtzWill: what I have set up now is just a glorified proof of concept :-) |
| 06:32.09 | dtzWill | rwhitby: yes and I don't mean to start bitching about every little thing while it's still early and a WIP. and I do rather like the ability to individually backup/restore/etc, and have that all in my control. certainly better to err on that side than have some automagic thing do it all for you. |
| 06:32.42 | rwhitby | I'm sure Jason will do the PC-based automagic solution ;-) |
| 06:33.25 | dtzWill | rwhitby: I understand this might be a hard question to answer, but is preware-alpha ready for day-to-day usage? reports do seem rather positive |
| 06:33.43 | phil_bw | dtzWill: still not loading... I'll screw with it in the morning |
| 06:33.48 | phil_bw | wamders off |
| 06:33.59 | rwhitby | dtzWill: I believe it is. worst that can happen is that an install or remove fails. |
| 06:34.01 | dtzWill | phil_bw: okay, have a good one :). you using icewm? I'll see if that works.......... |
| 06:34.37 | rwhitby | dtzWill: of course it doesn't go on my production device until it gets into the public feed |
| 06:34.46 | dtzWill | rwhitby: okay, a description of estimated damage is indeed useful :). I love playing with my device but preware has become pretty critical part of my phone :) |
| 06:34.57 | dtzWill | rwhitby: hahaha :D. look at you with multiple phones, mr fancy :) |
| 06:35.13 | dtzWill | continues his work hacking on his device and playing with the kernel on his primary phone |
| 06:35.16 | dtzWill | xD |
| 06:35.53 | rwhitby | dtzWill: see /msg |
| 06:56.24 | Jack87 | hey i was trying to follow the convo |
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| 06:58.54 | rwhitby | continues work on the kernel packaging Makefile |
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| 10:59.27 | rwhitby | does some patches processing |
| 11:39.59 | cal__ | rwhitby: ez-ipupdate + lighty = pretty cool |
| 11:40.35 | rwhitby | cal__: + save/restore and you can browse your IM and SMS archives as HTML files |
| 11:42.51 | cal__ | rwhitby: wow! pretty cool. I made a script/html file to make all my photos browsable on the phones web server as soon as i take them. But then I decided it's pretty useless, even as thumbnails and only 6 at a time, the photos are *very* slow to load. |
| 11:45.52 | cal__ | your saying browse IM and SMS through lighty? I feel a full fledged 'control panel and browser' coming soon to control the phone through lighty lol. |
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| 12:32.02 | en0x | http://gizmodo.com/5509384/sorry-your-ipad-is-low-on-memory lol |
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| 12:43.05 | Davide-NYC | hide nascar app not hiding nascar app. have removed and reinstalled patch through preware. all latest versions of webos and preware. thoughts? |
| 12:43.22 | Davide-NYC | same for hide amazon. |
| 12:44.59 | rwhitby | Davide-NYC: no idea - the patch author just updated it - you'll need to talk to them |
| 12:46.45 | Davide-NYC | OK. Any news on the overclocked kernels for webos 1.4.1.1? |
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| 13:03.52 | rwhitby | Davide-NYC: plenty of news in the forum thread on that subject |
| 13:06.44 | cal__ | rwhitby: I added the 'sleep 5' you mentioned in the forums about ezipudate. sometimes i still find it doesnt update the new IP though.. not sure if it's when it goes from wireless-to-evdo or when it loses cell signal and then finds it again, or what. |
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| 13:17.21 | nt4cats | mornin |
| 13:18.57 | nt4cats | (or evenin' to those of us on other continents as appropriate) |
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| 13:21.19 | nt4cats | many moons ago (before there was an optware feed in Preware, I'm 98% sure), I hand-installed dropbear. I think the recommended way to get ssh on one's Pre today is to use the packages in the optware feed in Preware. Any recommends regarding dropbear vs. openssh? |
| 13:21.32 | nt4cats | (I doctored my Pre before 1.4) |
| 13:22.20 | rwhitby | nt4cats: I use openssh |
| 13:22.56 | rwhitby | mainly cause dropbear requires root to have a password, even if passwords are disabled. that means an OTA update can stop dropbear from working, whereas openssh will soldier on |
| 13:23.46 | nt4cats | rwhitby: good to know. I'll setup openssh, then. Thanks |
| 13:24.21 | nt4cats | is RT F'ing M |
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| 13:56.39 | nt4cats | I suspect the ApplicationOpenSSH page on the wiki was copied from the dropbear page -- there are still dropbear-specific instructions at the bottom. I'll update them to match the OpenSSH package |
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| 13:58.15 | zsoc_wirc | nt4cats: we were having a discussioon about what your nick represented, and decided it would be easier just to ask you |
| 13:58.33 | nt4cats | heh, it is actually an irc thing from the early 90's :) |
| 13:58.54 | zsoc_wirc | we assumed it was old, I just wondered if it had any meaning :) |
| 13:59.22 | nt4cats | My first irc nick (from 1990-ish thru 1995) was jhoffa. I was an os2 guy and spent a lot of time on the #os/2 channel. |
| 13:59.25 | zsoc_wirc | you can say no, lol. I'm curious to a fault |
| 14:00.37 | nt4cats | One day I couldn't use it anymore. I sent a message to the admins to fix the problem, but signed on as "os2cat" in the meantime. I thought it sounded kinda hipster and I had just gotten my first cat. |
| 14:00.43 | rwhitby | nt4cats: are you jhoffa on PreCentral? |
| 14:01.03 | nt4cats | nt4cats: nope, I haven't used jhoffa online since the early 1990's |
| 14:01.09 | zsoc_wirc | hahaha 'cat' being hipster, that's excellent. |
| 14:01.27 | zsoc_wirc | we should exclusively speak jive. |
| 14:02.34 | nt4cats | a while later I got a job doing 32-bit windoze development, so I installed NT4. I thought that chatting with windows fanboys with a nickname of "os2cat" wouldn't be very popular, so I started typing /nick nt4 ... and "cats" seemed to be the perfect way to finish it |
| 14:03.13 | zsoc_wirc | well I'm amused. I like storytime. |
| 14:03.50 | nt4cats | I started using nt4cats as my online 'handle' everywhere -- and even though I haven't run a Microsoft OS on my box in 6+ years, it has stuck. |
| 14:04.02 | nt4cats | too much of a PITA to change at this point |
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| 14:04.16 | zsoc_wirc | I like it. it's unique and mysterious |
| 14:04.39 | nt4cats | zsoc_wirc: and it is rarely already taken when I sign up for something new :) |
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| 14:07.04 | nt4cats | I just spent 3 minutes wondering why I cant edit /etc/event.d/mobi.optware.openssh using vi in terminal. Maybe I should try mount -o rw,remount / |
| 14:07.39 | zsoc_wirc | nt4cats: i've never spent quite that long... maybe 2 minutes. but we've all done it ;) |
| 14:08.03 | nt4cats | zsoc_wirc: it was 3 minutes because I was telling you a story at the same time -- split attention |
| 14:08.15 | zsoc_wirc | ah. forgiven |
| 14:08.52 | zsoc_wirc | also, I've probably put in considerably more hours playing with webos in general.. and I've done it recently |
| 14:08.57 | zsoc_wirc | so that's probably worse |
| 14:10.22 | nt4cats | zsoc_wirc: and in terminal the "error/message" line at the bottom of vi is not visibile on my Pre's screen |
| 14:11.04 | zsoc_wirc | ah. even better |
| 14:11.59 | zsoc_wirc | i've become so used to vim, I instinctively go for the colon when I want to do anything in any editor |
| 14:13.23 | nt4cats | is quite happy to see ez-ipupdate in the optware feed. |
| 14:13.45 | nt4cats | this is much easier than when I set this all up by hand using the command line back in July/August of last year |
| 14:14.24 | rwhitby | nt4cats: that's cause I hate typing things manually just as much as anyone else ... |
| 14:14.35 | zsoc_wirc | nt4cats: ez-ipupdate is quite a time saver. |
| 14:14.49 | zsoc_wirc | having a dns directly to my pre blows my friends minds |
| 14:15.21 | nt4cats | I had it from August until I doctored my Pre right before 1.4 came out :) |
| 14:20.56 | nt4cats | openssh running on non-standard port + ez-ipupdate all setup and working with a minimum of fuss. Handy! |
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| 14:27.10 | zsoc_wirc | nt4cats: it's less surprising once people realize how standard the stack is |
| 14:27.14 | hOoLiGaN` | how to get { } in vi? |
| 14:27.24 | hOoLiGaN` | i tried copying/pasting it in |
| 14:27.29 | hOoLiGaN` | no luck |
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| 14:30.18 | nt4cats | zsoc_wirc: it wasn't hard to do by hand, either way back when ... but the integration of optware into preware made it even easier |
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| 14:34.34 | jhojho | argh. mail seems to be wonky again |
| 14:34.43 | jhojho | I get notifications yet my inbox shows zero |
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| 14:47.03 | rwhitby | jhojho: http://git.webos-internals.org/?p=preware/build.git;a=blob;f=hardware/uber-kernel-pre/Makefile |
| 14:47.46 | jhojho | enh? |
| 14:47.52 | jhojho | taking a look |
| 14:47.54 | rwhitby | jhojho: completely untested |
| 14:48.12 | rwhitby | just a packaging proof of concept |
| 14:48.27 | jhojho | is there a .config? |
| 14:48.38 | rwhitby | jhojho: the patch patches the defconfig |
| 14:49.14 | rwhitby | jhojho: it needs to be adjusted with regards to the discussions over the last week or so. |
| 14:49.23 | jhojho | okay. |
| 14:49.41 | rwhitby | but that can now all be done in the repo, and the repackaging will be automatica |
| 14:49.50 | jhojho | personally, I would rather see a .config in git |
| 14:50.14 | jhojho | so that we are clear on what is being changed. the kernel patch should be the absolute minimum |
| 14:50.17 | rwhitby | jhojho: it's easier to move forward a patch to Palm's defconfig |
| 14:50.31 | rwhitby | jhojho: see the first lines of the patch |
| 14:51.09 | rwhitby | oops, looks like I forgot to commit that |
| 14:51.39 | jhojho | also. not really a fan of the "uber" name.. I like the greased weasel series of kernels =) |
| 14:52.07 | rwhitby | jhojho: http://git.webos-internals.org/?p=kernels/patches.git;a=blob;f=overclocking/opp6-720-opp7-800-min-opp5.patch |
| 14:53.02 | jhojho | see line 34 in that patch |
| 14:53.11 | jhojho | the default governor should be userspace |
| 14:53.14 | jhojho | not conservative |
| 14:53.28 | jhojho | all of that should be changed via command-line/script |
| 14:53.56 | rwhitby | jhojho: right - as I said it needs to be adjusted with regards to the discussions |
| 14:54.04 | jhojho | point taken |
| 14:54.06 | rwhitby | jhojho: feel free to go in and edit please |
| 14:54.35 | jhojho | that's interesting. I didn't realize that unixpsycho had opted for noop instead of cfq |
| 14:54.52 | jhojho | I wonder what testing was done with that |
| 14:55.41 | jhojho | rwhitby: does number1pete show up here? we should probably try to get him to extend his program to account for these options |
| 14:56.38 | rwhitby | jhojho: there's also some good discussion in this channel about 10 hours ago and in #webos about 7.5 hours ago with certain knowledgeable folk regarding these subjects |
| 14:57.00 | rwhitby | jhojho: you should read the logs |
| 14:58.14 | rwhitby | jhojho: ok, I'm off to bed - there's the stable build platform on which we can not negotiate the best outcome |
| 14:58.21 | rwhitby | s/not/now/ |
| 14:58.30 | rwhitby | bbt - night all |
| 14:58.35 | jhojho | rwhitby: cool. laterz |
| 15:04.51 | jhojho | rwhitby: reading the logs now. I had been experimenting with the powersave_bias so this is all good information. hopefully sbromwich will show up on irc when I'm on sometime |
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| 15:46.12 | sbromwich | dtzWill: if I can get it done tonight, yes, otherwise my next free time will be in august |
| 15:48.45 | zsoc_wirc | sbromwich: hey.. what are we talking about? |
| 15:50.34 | sbromwich | seeing if I can resolve all the patch conflicts to upgrade the kernel |
| 15:50.54 | sbromwich | adding the -rt patch would be nice too |
| 15:51.33 | dtzWill | sbromwich: out of curiosity, why 2.6.25 in particular? or just going for one version at a time? :) |
| 15:52.23 | sbromwich | because 2.6.32 will not apply to 2.6.24 without all the intervening patches |
| 15:53.11 | dtzWill | sbromwich: haha okay that's what I was guessing :):). good luck sir :D |
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| 15:53.35 | sbromwich | thanks |
| 15:53.48 | sbromwich | I think there's only a few hundred biggies |
| 15:53.59 | dtzWill | sbromwich: I haven't poked at it much, but doesn't the device ship with binary modules tied to a particular kernel version? (and wouldn't those break on newer versions conceivably?) |
| 15:54.22 | sbromwich | yes |
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| 15:55.08 | sbromwich | I would note that if I break my phone I just tell the phone guy at work to buy me another |
| 15:55.29 | sbromwich | so I'm not *too* concerned about blowing it up |
| 15:56.28 | idw2k-irc | have him buy me one, too? |
| 15:58.23 | sbromwich | only if you want to help me admin a fleet of mission critical aix boxes that run the local health authority |
| 15:59.36 | idw2k-irc | sure, if you don't mind that I'm grossly underqualified and would be good mostly for fetching you coffee and such |
| 16:01.09 | en0x | eeewwww aix |
| 16:01.09 | en0x | :S |
| 16:01.22 | sbromwich | mmm... you probably wouldn't pass the entrance exam then ;-) |
| 16:01.36 | sbromwich | aix is just another flavour of unix |
| 16:01.49 | en0x | is it still being developed? :> |
| 16:01.53 | sbromwich | it's nice playing on a box with 80 processors though |
| 16:01.56 | en0x | or ibm abandoned it long time ago? :> |
| 16:01.57 | sbromwich | oh yes. |
| 16:02.16 | sbromwich | it's very much being developed and is used a lot more than you think |
| 16:02.34 | en0x | we mostly use solaris here at work |
| 16:02.39 | sbromwich | aix 7 beta is out in summer, power 7 chips should be out around then |
| 16:02.46 | sbromwich | *nod* |
| 16:02.47 | idw2k-irc | IBM never abandons anything. |
| 16:03.02 | loot- | idw2k-irc: not true |
| 16:03.10 | sbromwich | I just put the gnu tools on any system I use to get a consistent environment |
| 16:03.17 | loot- | they abandoned their entire hard drive line |
| 16:03.25 | loot- | they abandoned their entire laptop and desktop line |
| 16:03.43 | loot- | i can see ibm abandoning their entire server line sooner or later |
| 16:03.48 | sbromwich | I think "sold" might be more appropriate |
| 16:04.10 | sbromwich | they want to concentrate on servers and services as that's where the margin is |
| 16:04.23 | loot- | actually what i read |
| 16:04.30 | loot- | said they were turning away from ALL hardware |
| 16:04.37 | loot- | and just focusing on services and software |
| 16:04.38 | sbromwich | we just dropped $80k to enable 4 CPUs, for example |
| 16:04.44 | idw2k-irc | well yes, I meant in terms of architecture...they're still supporting and even selling new AS/400s |
| 16:04.48 | sbromwich | they aren't turning away from ppc |
| 16:05.04 | sbromwich | they're making too much money off it |
| 16:05.23 | loot- | maybe off of you :P |
| 16:05.32 | loot- | i only know of a handful of places using it anymore |
| 16:05.34 | sbromwich | and the banks, and the government, yes |
| 16:05.41 | loot- | government? no |
| 16:05.46 | sbromwich | it's very much a back-end os these days |
| 16:05.47 | loot- | gov is rapidly moving away from IBM |
| 16:05.47 | sbromwich | yes. |
| 16:06.06 | sbromwich | gov here in NS is all AIX for mission critical stuff |
| 16:06.16 | loot- | federal gov is all sun |
| 16:06.17 | loot- | :P |
| 16:06.34 | sbromwich | quite possibly |
| 16:06.38 | loot- | nobody uses ibm anymore unless they're supporting some old legacy stuff |
| 16:06.46 | loot- | at least in government |
| 16:07.06 | en0x | yap like we |
| 16:07.07 | sbromwich | as I said... not here in NS |
| 16:07.11 | en0x | we moved from aix to solaris |
| 16:07.11 | *** join/#webos-internals motp (~bbu@hobbes.penguin.de) |
| 16:07.24 | sbromwich | and not in healthcare as I talk to my counterparts all he way across the country to calgary |
| 16:08.02 | sbromwich | my servers are the only ones in the DC that habitually hit 100% uptime year after year |
| 16:08.15 | loot- | which is actually bad |
| 16:08.24 | loot- | sorry sir but that is a horrible practice |
| 16:08.25 | en0x | 10in+ to vpenis |
| 16:08.25 | en0x | :D |
| 16:08.26 | loot- | and i would fire you |
| 16:08.30 | loot- | :( |
| 16:08.55 | sbromwich | for why? |
| 16:09.07 | loot- | having HA is good, having 100% uptime and never patching and power cycling hardware is horrible administrative practice |
| 16:09.19 | sbromwich | you're jumping to conclusions there |
| 16:09.25 | sbromwich | google partition mobility |
| 16:09.32 | loot- | i dont need to |
| 16:09.36 | *** join/#webos-internals nebula (~jtadmin@67.105.157.210.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 16:09.36 | *** mode/#webos-internals [+v nebula] by ChanServ |
| 16:09.41 | loot- | you must mistake me for some luser |
| 16:09.41 | sbromwich | if I want to work on the hardware I just move the lpar to another machine |
| 16:09.42 | loot- | heh |
| 16:10.06 | sbromwich | and in the healthcare world we have to hew to vendor standards very precisely |
| 16:10.28 | en0x | http://www.explosm.net/comics/2002/ lol hahahahahahaahah |
| 16:10.31 | *** part/#webos-internals idw2k-irc (~wIRCer@174-150-209-163.pools.spcsdns.net) |
| 16:10.37 | sbromwich | I still have a 4.3 box running in the back because the vendor for DI has only had their new product out for a year |
| 16:10.52 | *** join/#webos-internals idw2k-irc (~wIRCer@174-150-209-163.pools.spcsdns.net) |
| 16:12.55 | sbromwich | and that box has been running long enough to expose a bug that makes uptime show negative values |
| 16:13.22 | sbromwich | always nice to see a box up for -95 days. |
| 16:14.18 | idw2k-irc | that's the new model with the flux capacitor, right? |
| 16:14.46 | sbromwich | it's a... B80, I think |
| 16:14.52 | sbromwich | or possibly F50 |
| 16:15.11 | sbromwich | bought in... 2001? |
| 16:15.25 | idw2k-irc | sorry, bad 80s reference joke |
| 16:22.11 | *** join/#webos-internals icarus (~tits@unaffiliated/icarus-/x-7520418) |
| 16:23.32 | zsoc_wirc | sbromwich: did you say 80 processors? |
| 16:24.39 | sbromwich | yeah |
| 16:25.14 | zsoc_wirc | fancy |
| 16:25.29 | sbromwich | we have a couple of p570's that are fairly well loaded with extra CECs |
| 16:25.44 | nt4cats|away | idw2k-irc: MvFly!!!! |
| 16:25.55 | nt4cats|away | s/MvFly/McFly/ |
| 16:26.09 | loot- | my M9000 crushes your inferior IBM! |
| 16:26.10 | loot- | :P |
| 16:26.22 | idw2k-irc | oh thank god somebody got it |
| 16:26.30 | zsoc_wirc | nt4cats|away: back to your meeting :D |
| 16:27.04 | *** join/#webos-internals dug (~Adium@c-24-130-185-86.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 16:27.39 | nt4cats | idw2k-irc: At 38 years old (39 in June) -- those films are right in my wheelhouse. |
| 16:27.57 | loot- | 64 quad core cpus with quad threads per core |
| 16:28.01 | loot- | 256 gigs of ram |
| 16:28.03 | loot- | BWAHAHAHA |
| 16:28.29 | sbromwich | congrats |
| 16:29.45 | loot- | using minimum memory phase right now |
| 16:29.49 | loot- | could upgrade to 4 terabyte |
| 16:30.04 | nt4cats | I have 65 quad core cpus with penta threads per core and 257 gigs of RAM on mine. |
| 16:30.45 | loot- | nt4cats: but you run windows on it... |
| 16:31.06 | nt4cats | loot-: but it is Windows ME, so it is faster. |
| 16:32.14 | loot- | syndrop.c's you |
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| 16:34.01 | *** mode/#webos-internals [+v egaudet] by ChanServ |
| 16:34.40 | zsoc_wirc | nukes you on port 139 |
| 16:35.03 | loot- | haha |
| 16:35.10 | loot- | bust out click.exe and go to town |
| 16:35.45 | nebula | speaking of port 139, i'm working on a trouble ticket for samba shares |
| 16:35.46 | nebula | hah |
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| 17:07.01 | *** join/#webos-internals PalmoAnest (~76656ab6@gateway/web/freenode/x-sixmovynbmvaiybk) |
| 17:07.37 | PalmoAnest | hi |
| 17:08.42 | PalmoAnest | getting my pre from ebay. back to palm |
| 17:09.55 | *** join/#webos-internals hOoLiGaN` (~root@cary-b-097.resnet.purdue.edu) |
| 17:11.17 | bpadalino | interesting |
| 17:12.35 | zsoc_wirc | bpadalino: hm? |
| 17:13.17 | bpadalino | over the past couple of weeks i've noticed the irc usage go up and down .. we're at a medium level now .. 141 people .. i think 160 or 170 is where we kinda top out |
| 17:13.42 | *** join/#webos-internals halfhalo_T400 (~halfhalo_@cpe-76-95-96-74.socal.res.rr.com) |
| 17:13.46 | zsoc_wirc | bpadalino: yep. I've seen lows under 100 too |
| 17:13.53 | bpadalino | oh interesting .. |
| 17:14.05 | bpadalino | in other news, my left cheek is still numb from the dentist |
| 17:14.11 | bpadalino | and i'm hungry for lunch :( |
| 17:14.20 | *** join/#webos-internals muchtall (~muchtall@70-99-118-66.apigroupinc.com) |
| 17:14.33 | zsoc_wirc | bpadalino: do you have a palm developer forum nick? |
| 17:14.51 | *** join/#webos-internals Mousey (~wtfisme@sea02-v600-nat.marchex.com) |
| 17:15.06 | bpadalino | i don't think so |
| 17:15.25 | bpadalino | if i signed up, it would be the same as this tho |
| 17:15.30 | bpadalino | i am apparently not very original |
| 17:17.12 | idw2k-irc | but you are consistent |
| 17:19.17 | bpadalino | indeed |
| 17:22.10 | *** join/#webos-internals Abyssul (~Abyssul@cpe-024-168-211-031.sc.res.rr.com) |
| 17:24.28 | *** join/#webos-internals Robdor (~Robdor@67.138.59.170) |
| 17:25.37 | Abyssul | sms contact per tone still doesnt install |
| 17:25.50 | Abyssul | wow i fuggeled that patch name |
| 17:29.26 | *** join/#webos-internals phil_bw (~phil_bw@c-98-246-52-50.hsd1.or.comcast.net) |
| 17:37.41 | idw2k-irc | it has yet to be updated |
| 17:41.12 | idw2k-irc | no one has come out and said it, but I think it's been orphaned and needs a developer to pick up the ball and run with it |
| 17:41.30 | Lumiere | isn't its entire functionality duplicated in another patch now? |
| 17:41.44 | Lumiere | that does other things |
| 17:42.18 | *** join/#webos-internals jrmuizel (~jrmuizel@mozca02.ca.mozilla.com) |
| 17:43.10 | idw2k-irc | not sure |
| 17:43.16 | idw2k-irc | I don't use it |
| 17:47.43 | Abyssul | it says it was updated last night |
| 17:47.49 | *** join/#webos-internals Mitalis (~Mitalis@pool-173-55-183-45.lsanca.fios.verizon.net) |
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| 18:03.40 | Mitalis | Is the App Catalog down for anybody else or is it just me? |
| 18:06.49 | Mousey | http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/ |
| 18:07.24 | Mitalis | I mean the App Catalog on the phone itself |
| 18:12.25 | Mousey | oh |
| 18:12.33 | Mousey | its a url tho, that should work ^_^ |
| 18:13.22 | nt4cats | Mitalis: "could not be completed ... try again later" |
| 18:13.34 | VincentLaw | Mitalis: works for me |
| 18:13.56 | VincentLaw | oh waaait |
| 18:14.05 | VincentLaw | if you go into an app it errors |
| 18:14.28 | nt4cats | I get the main scene, but if I click anywhere I get the error |
| 18:15.55 | idontwan2know | same here |
| 18:16.26 | VincentLaw | i can do the browse parts |
| 18:16.29 | VincentLaw | but clicking on apps errors |
| 18:16.51 | nt4cats | I did "what's new" and got the error ... "what's new" just worked now |
| 18:17.04 | nt4cats | now an app worked |
| 18:17.09 | nt4cats | maybe they fixed it |
| 18:17.45 | *** join/#webos-internals thadood (~thadood@c-75-64-178-167.hsd1.tn.comcast.net) |
| 18:18.36 | idontwan2know | yeah, it's working again for me |
| 18:20.09 | VincentLaw | someone tripped on the cords |
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| 18:41.28 | phil_bw | blah... why is it I can get a perfectly good x window setup working quite nicely on the Pre but can't get a stupid SSH connection established.... |
| 18:43.38 | *** part/#webos-internals Abyssul (~Abyssul@cpe-024-168-211-031.sc.res.rr.com) |
| 18:44.08 | tmzt_ | I love that the headphones jack is a standard 1/8" plug. But about half the time I use it, the sensor that detects whether it has a plug in it or not gets "stuck", and I spend the next 20-30 minutes plugging and unplugging the 1/8" head phones plug into the slot until I can by chance get the friggin' sensor to reset. |
| 18:44.20 | tmzt_ | http://blog.dustinkirkland.com/2010/04/palm-pre-rant.html |
| 18:44.26 | tmzt_ | this is a load sensor in the codec right? |
| 18:44.42 | tmzt_ | that blog calls for a recall but I think this could be software |
| 18:44.57 | tmzt_ | and it's pre not pixi so it should be an apps software fix (omap3) |
| 18:49.28 | *** join/#webos-internals Sargun (~Sargun@atarack/Staff/Sargun) |
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| 18:53.52 | zsoc_wirc | tmzt_: I'm 75% sure it's a software problem |
| 18:55.00 | phil_bw | has anybody took apart a dead pre and inspected the mechanical side of things real well yet? |
| 19:01.05 | Lumiere | btw... the treo 700p |
| 19:01.11 | Lumiere | also had the stuck thing going on |
| 19:01.29 | Lumiere | err 755p |
| 19:01.40 | Lumiere | cause I had a 2.5mm jack that had the problem too |
| 19:01.51 | *** join/#webos-internals eberon (~eberon@angilas.ur.northwestern.edu) |
| 19:03.49 | lemketron | tmzt_: http://forums.palm.com/t5/webOS-Software/Speaker-not-working-after-unplugging-headphone/m-p/206541 (you should be able to exchange the hardware if necessary) |
| 19:04.03 | *** join/#webos-internals dpivs (~dpivs@ppp-71-135-229-252.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net) |
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| 19:10.19 | zsoc_wirc | lemketron: although I agree it happens more with some hardware than others, I can get it to happen on any hardware. it's a bug in the 'mediaserver' gstreamer application imo |
| 19:11.07 | lemketron | hmmm. I haven't heard that, but would be interested to hear if you can come up with a reliable way to reproduce it!! |
| 19:11.08 | cal__ | are sip voip apps possible yet? |
| 19:11.40 | sampson | does sprint recognize the "oreo" effect as a hardware problem and do replacements |
| 19:12.15 | zsoc_wirc | lemketron: sure I can |
| 19:15.04 | zsoc_wirc | lemketron: the reason I've postulated this |
| 19:15.06 | zsoc_wirc | btw |
| 19:15.31 | phil_bw | sampson, my sprint store said that "oreo was added intentionally by palm, otherwise it wouldn't slide, this is normal" |
| 19:15.31 | zsoc_wirc | is because the easiest way to fix it is reinsterting a plug while streaming music, with something like pandora |
| 19:15.54 | phil_bw | the rep then pulled out his own pre and showed me it's oreo, worst case I had ever seen |
| 19:16.30 | zsoc_wirc | when you are streaming music, the application is sinked directly to mediaserver, and mediaserver becomes your 'Source', which is connected to your pcm_out Sink, viewable with pcm_out.monitor |
| 19:16.39 | zsoc_wirc | pulse audio descriptions, of course. |
| 19:19.05 | *** join/#webos-internals roxfan (dunno@133.136-246-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) |
| 19:19.49 | sampson | i never saw the oreo crap until i got my third pre |
| 19:19.57 | sampson | they're sending a fourth now |
| 19:20.06 | sampson | mine rotates like half an inch |
| 19:20.45 | nebula | wth are there still audio lags in 1.4 |
| 19:20.46 | nebula | :( |
| 19:21.25 | zsoc_wirc | nebula: explain your environment, i'll tell you how to get me a log |
| 19:21.43 | tmzt_ | lemketron: the replacement might be the easiest way but I'm still not sure why there's no software fix |
| 19:21.48 | tmzt_ | or what they fix in the replacements |
| 19:22.34 | tmzt_ | zsoc_wirc: as in the input device is not feeding the plug events to gstreamer/pulse quickly enough? |
| 19:22.37 | tmzt_ | or it's missing some |
| 19:23.00 | tmzt_ | why is gstreamer directing output anyway, isn't that pulse's job? |
| 19:23.11 | zsoc_wirc | ... |
| 19:23.16 | nebula | zsoc_wirc: i think it's just a global issue, i've noticed it in a bunch of apps |
| 19:23.36 | nebula | seems to be lack of playing simultaneous sounds |
| 19:23.36 | zsoc_wirc | mediasever is a gstreamer application that handles EVERYTHING between the application layer and pulseaudio |
| 19:23.53 | zsoc_wirc | nebula: that's a mojo api limitation. |
| 19:23.55 | nebula | yeah |
| 19:24.09 | nebula | boo. |
| 19:24.11 | nebula | ;) |
| 19:24.17 | zsoc_wirc | er, everything except phone calls |
| 19:24.31 | zsoc_wirc | phone calls directly access the audio through asm to the driver |
| 19:24.35 | nebula | exactly, hence using # and * for a metronome :( |
| 19:24.41 | zsoc_wirc | from what I can gather |
| 19:24.53 | nebula | yup, weird they haven't addressed that yet |
| 19:25.14 | zsoc_wirc | well the media team is 'newish' |
| 19:25.31 | zsoc_wirc | but maybe one day I'll email chris M and give him my suggestions |
| 19:25.41 | nebula | i could tell, my bugs were never "looked at" |
| 19:25.51 | nebula | they just.. went somewhere and died |
| 19:28.10 | PuffTheMagic | tmzt_: my bother is is on Pre #6 |
| 19:28.19 | PuffTheMagic | and htye have "fixed" his headphone jack 3 times |
| 19:28.36 | *** join/#webos-internals Major (~41f4e3c2@gateway/web/freenode/x-mjwtkpqnqavtwtjl) |
| 19:30.14 | zsoc_wirc | lemketron: if Palm will opensource mediaserver, I will fix the bug :D |
| 19:33.26 | phil_bw | do you guys know if the Pre closes ports by default? |
| 19:34.23 | chrisa | phil_bw: ports aren't a magical thing sitting open like a door |
| 19:34.37 | phil_bw | i've got ssh setup in my debian environment and it *was* working (while having a broken dropbear server installed) it's now deleted and ssh quit working |
| 19:35.11 | *** join/#webos-internals Butch (~Bastian@p57BA2B0D.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 19:35.56 | Major | Do we know if Verizon Blocks port 80 for lightyhttp? |
| 19:42.52 | *** join/#webos-internals eternaleye (~quassel@unaffiliated/eternaleye) |
| 19:44.28 | sbromwich | phil_bw: I hit a similar problem with an upgrade somewhere along the line and had to, I think, ipkg-opt install -force-reinstall openssh |
| 19:44.46 | phil_bw | I just reinstalled dropbear |
| 19:44.53 | sbromwich | that works too :-) |
| 19:44.56 | phil_bw | although it stays broken |
| 19:45.01 | phil_bw | the debian sshd works |
| 19:45.11 | sbromwich | *nod* |
| 19:45.22 | sbromwich | I've only used openssh |
| 19:45.30 | *** join/#webos-internals draeath (~draeath@draeath.net) |
| 19:45.39 | phil_bw | I believe that's what I am actually using |
| 19:46.07 | phil_bw | now if it weren't so bloody slow |
| 19:48.00 | sbromwich | keep pinging the pre in another window |
| 19:48.14 | sbromwich | I also use novaterm to ping the pc I'm coming in from |
| 19:48.29 | sbromwich | helps stop the radio turning off |
| 19:48.32 | nebula | i use novaproxy all the time :) |
| 19:49.26 | sbromwich | I have problems with novaterm and linefeeds editing file, dunno if it's my term or not but it's easier to ssh in and be a "real" vt100 |
| 19:49.49 | Mousey | did terminal ever get rereleased/ |
| 19:49.50 | Mousey | ? |
| 19:50.04 | nt4cats | Mousey: yes |
| 19:50.05 | phil_bw | sbromwich, I'm in the same boat |
| 19:50.11 | Mousey | yay |
| 19:50.15 | phil_bw | nano doesn't work right in novaterm |
| 19:50.18 | nt4cats | Mousey: the service was updated to fix the 1.4 crash |
| 19:50.27 | sbromwich | ah, good to know it's not just me phil_bw ;-) |
| 19:50.29 | nt4cats | phil_bw: don't use nano (ever). |
| 19:50.39 | Mousey | cheers, installs |
| 19:50.44 | sbromwich | joe fails in some particularly amusing ways |
| 19:50.51 | sbromwich | vi also, but not quite so bad |
| 19:50.58 | Mousey | emacs? |
| 19:51.05 | phil_bw | nt4cats, and what's wrong with nano? it's quick and simple |
| 19:51.11 | sbromwich | I don't use emacs |
| 19:51.19 | nt4cats | nano: it's like an editor with training wheels |
| 19:51.22 | sbromwich | if joe is good enough for alan cox it's good enough for me |
| 19:51.23 | nt4cats | nano: and clown shoes |
| 19:51.52 | nt4cats | vi seems to work well enough on the Pre (small quirks, but it is workable for me) |
| 19:51.58 | phil_bw | I'm not writing source code in the thing |
| 19:52.08 | phil_bw | just making a few quick changes to config files here and there |
| 19:52.16 | nt4cats | phil_bw: well, those clown shoes are very becoming on you, then ;) |
| 19:52.51 | phil_bw | nt4cats, if in the end we both wind up with the same file, what's the problem? |
| 19:53.14 | sbromwich | I'm trying to write code... lf that has a combo del character is noy helpful ;-) |
| 19:54.41 | nt4cats | phil_bw: "which editor do you use" is sorta like "which religion do you like" or "what politician do you vote for" |
| 19:54.52 | nt4cats | phil_bw: only more passionate for me ;) |
| 19:55.18 | phil_bw | well alright |
| 19:55.43 | phil_bw | should have probably just said I use echo for everything |
| 19:56.30 | sbromwich | cat > file.c |
| 19:57.02 | loot- | theres a tool for every job |
| 19:57.11 | loot- | and sometimes there are multiple tools for a job |
| 19:57.28 | bpadalino | cat to create new files .. and sed for when you make a mistake |
| 19:57.34 | loot- | saying something as vague as an editor, browser, or operating system is the "best" is clear zealotry |
| 19:57.36 | loot- | :P |
| 19:57.46 | phil_bw | indeed |
| 19:57.48 | Mousey | i <3 <editor> |
| 19:57.58 | sbromwich | I prefer "least worst" |
| 19:58.12 | loot- | i use what works best for the situation |
| 19:58.13 | loot- | :P |
| 19:58.15 | phil_bw | if it works for you then use it |
| 19:58.22 | sbromwich | exactly |
| 19:59.02 | zsoc_wirc | VIM IS CLEARLY THE BEST EDITOR |
| 19:59.18 | Mousey | duh |
| 20:00.15 | *** join/#webos-internals idontwan2know (~idontwan2@150.5.205.68.cfl.res.rr.com) |
| 20:00.46 | loot- | zsoc_wirc: prove it! there are japanese sex robots running emacs... now what! huh? what! |
| 20:00.49 | loot- | puffs chest out |
| 20:00.50 | loot- | haha |
| 20:01.27 | sbromwich | do they write pr0n in emacs? |
| 20:01.36 | loot- | do-sexy-time.el |
| 20:01.47 | sbromwich | heh |
| 20:03.20 | *** join/#webos-internals Tman (~Tman@unaffiliated/tman) |
| 20:09.52 | *** join/#webos-internals idontwan2know (~idontwan2@150.5.205.68.cfl.res.rr.com) |
| 20:11.46 | *** join/#webos-internals dgathright (~dgathrigh@nat/yahoo/x-qikniebgucocpdcd) |
| 20:27.25 | *** part/#webos-internals nebula (~jtadmin@67.105.157.210.ptr.us.xo.net) |
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| 20:43.35 | zsoc_wirc | so I've decided I really like the pixi |
| 20:43.52 | halfhalo_T400 | lol |
| 20:44.04 | bpadalino | pixi or pixi plus ? |
| 20:45.14 | PuffTheMagic | my first conference paper got accepted |
| 20:45.16 | PuffTheMagic | :D |
| 20:46.19 | bpadalino | congrats |
| 20:57.33 | *** join/#webos-internals oc80z (oc80z@blea.ch) |
| 20:57.35 | PuffTheMagic | thanks |
| 21:00.38 | *** join/#webos-internals roxfan (dunno@133.136-246-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) |
| 21:09.12 | zsoc_wirc | PuffTheMagic: I'm not sure what that means |
| 21:10.32 | bpadalino | conference paper ? |
| 21:10.59 | bpadalino | he wrote a paper that will be published and he gets to present it to a big audience interested in the subject |
| 21:14.03 | *** join/#webos-internals karotte_exe (~wIRCer@89.204.137.98) |
| 21:14.10 | karotte_exe | hi |
| 21:14.35 | karotte_exe | ahm... why can't i download quake? |
| 21:14.49 | *** join/#webos-internals oilsworkn (~43ed88fd@gateway/web/freenode/x-tfwrdjdhhokdlpwi) |
| 21:15.14 | oilsworkn | "Saved Package List" in the bottom of the main scene? |
| 21:15.54 | *** join/#webos-internals npfiii (~5751a0be@gateway/web/freenode/x-jvobsxtesaannzkj) |
| 21:16.39 | karotte_exe | hä? |
| 21:17.26 | *** join/#webos-internals matt4d617474_ (~mjb@rrcs-67-52-224-146.west.biz.rr.com) |
| 21:17.31 | *** join/#webos-internals jeffgus (~jeffgus@2002:ad33:b504::1) |
| 21:17.36 | karotte_exe | what do you mean? |
| 21:19.28 | karotte_exe | is quake not avaible for 1.4.1 ? |
| 21:20.42 | zsoc_wirc | oilsworkn: yes, what about saved package list? |
| 21:20.46 | zsoc_wirc | PuffTheMagic: oh, that sounds fun. good job. |
| 21:21.30 | oilsworkn | i was just questioning its place on the main scene |
| 21:22.15 | dtzWill | PuffTheMagic: congrats on paper. what conference? |
| 21:23.11 | *** part/#webos-internals karotte_exe (~wIRCer@89.204.137.98) |
| 21:28.01 | *** join/#webos-internals oil (~oil@66-189-216-38.dhcp.yakm.wa.charter.com) |
| 21:28.06 | *** mode/#webos-internals [+v oil] by ChanServ |
| 21:28.24 | oilsworkn | where did my home pc just go |
| 21:29.07 | *** join/#webos-internals Templarian (~Templaria@pix054-241.pix.wmich.edu) |
| 21:29.07 | *** mode/#webos-internals [+v Templarian] by ChanServ |
| 21:33.28 | *** join/#webos-internals jeffgus (~jeffgus@2002:ad33:b504::1) |
| 21:42.27 | zsoc|away | oilsworkn: we had a discussion about it here, rod convinced me it was the right place for it |
| 21:42.54 | halfhalo_T400 | hippies |
| 21:42.57 | oilsworkn | thinks its wicked ugly |
| 21:43.31 | zsoc | oilsworkn: so give a suggestion on where it should go |
| 21:43.37 | zsoc | i suggested a separator, originally |
| 21:44.18 | *** join/#webos-internals uNiXpSyChO (~marco@static-72-93-236-42.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) |
| 21:45.34 | oilsworkn | i dont understand why they're being connected so |
| 21:47.36 | zsoc | oilsworkn: the idea is it is a functionality of preware. Preware installs and uninstalls software. Save/Restore is actually doing the backup |
| 21:48.05 | zsoc | But that is a scene in Preware to save the current state of installed software, and to reinstall/restore a saved state (which is the installing part) |
| 21:50.59 | oilsworkn | that doesn't make any sense |
| 21:51.15 | zsoc | oilsworkn: ask rod, it's all his idea |
| 21:52.28 | oilsworkn | i thought the idea was to save the list of packages, and to simply have the restore function open preware with the list |
| 21:52.37 | oilsworkn | i dont understand why it is its own section in preware now |
| 21:56.17 | oilsworkn | and its using a html5 db? |
| 21:56.23 | *** join/#webos-internals Tman (~Tman@unaffiliated/tman) |
| 21:56.48 | oilsworkn | eww |
| 21:58.03 | zsoc | oilsworkn: cookie is too small, has to use depot |
| 21:59.42 | oilsworkn | too small for what? a list of package id's? |
| 21:59.58 | zsoc | STOP ASKING ME I DIDN'T DO ANY OF IT |
| 21:59.59 | zsoc | :p |
| 22:00.13 | zsoc | and i've now screwed up pushing this tag twice lol |
| 22:00.38 | oilsworkn | you're the only one to reply |
| 22:03.32 | zsoc | i'm just telling you where it sounded like he was coming from |
| 22:05.50 | oilsworkn | well you're probably doing a terrible job at it |
| 22:05.53 | oilsworkn | :) |
| 22:13.21 | rwhitby | morning |
| 22:13.46 | zsoc | mornin' |
| 22:14.38 | uNiXpSyChO | evening |
| 22:14.53 | sbromwich | later afternoon |
| 22:14.54 | rwhitby | oil: 4K was too small for the saved package list, cause it has to include the source json data in case someone doesn't have the feed enabled. |
| 22:15.07 | rwhitby | uNiXpSyChO: so the kernel build infrastructure is in place |
| 22:15.18 | sbromwich | ohhhh? |
| 22:15.19 | uNiXpSyChO | rwhitby: i just noticed |
| 22:15.28 | uNiXpSyChO | rwhitby: is jauder online here? |
| 22:15.46 | sbromwich | I'm hand patching to see if I can get the -rt patch installed... if I have a test kernel tree can I throw it somewhere for a valid compile? |
| 22:15.53 | sbromwich | I was just going to compile directly on my pre |
| 22:16.35 | rwhitby | uNiXpSyChO: he is often here, yes. |
| 22:16.38 | zsoc | ew, compile on the pre, hehe |
| 22:16.49 | sbromwich | what's wrong with that? |
| 22:16.50 | uNiXpSyChO | why would you ant to do that? |
| 22:17.08 | rwhitby | uNiXpSyChO: preware/build.git in the hardware/uber-kernel-pre directory |
| 22:17.09 | sbromwich | to see if I can get a kernel running with the rt patches |
| 22:17.17 | uNiXpSyChO | rwhitby: he had some questions and i'd figure i'll answer them here |
| 22:17.50 | uNiXpSyChO | sbromwich: cross-compile dont work? |
| 22:17.59 | rwhitby | ~seen jhojho |
| 22:18.01 | infobot | jhojho <~jh@122-116-26-44.HINET-IP.hinet.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #webos-internals, 7h 13m 10s ago, saying: 'rwhitby: reading the logs now. I had been experimenting with the powersave_bias so this is all good information. hopefully sbromwich will show up on irc when I'm on sometime'. |
| 22:18.17 | sbromwich | the pre is faster than the computer I'm running on at the moment |
| 22:18.27 | uNiXpSyChO | sbromwich: OMG! |
| 22:18.32 | sbromwich | I think. |
| 22:18.33 | zsoc | hahaha\ |
| 22:18.36 | sbromwich | PIII 600 |
| 22:18.42 | zsoc | ... |
| 22:18.51 | zsoc | yes, the pre is much faster |
| 22:19.01 | sbromwich | my machine lost its magic smoke and until the new hardware arrives I'm stuck with something from the basement |
| 22:19.23 | sbromwich | although I suppose I could do distcc or something |
| 22:21.16 | uNiXpSyChO | rwhitby: very well written disclaimer :) |
| 22:21.23 | sbromwich | also the -rt patch only got 11 rejects versus a few thousand for 2.6.25 |
| 22:21.30 | *** join/#webos-internals chuqui (~chuqui@palm-64-28-152-131.palm.com) |
| 22:21.37 | rwhitby | uNiXpSyChO: it's the GPL license text :) |
| 22:22.34 | uNiXpSyChO | sbromwich: i'd doubt the binary-only modules will load but i'll be curious to see how you make out. |
| 22:23.01 | sbromwich | oh, there's binary only modules? |
| 22:23.02 | sbromwich | sod. |
| 22:23.09 | sbromwich | I thought the whole thing was open source :-/ |
| 22:23.14 | uNiXpSyChO | sbromwich: yep... wifi, bridgedriver, etc... |
| 22:23.18 | sbromwich | I'll give it a bash anyway and see how far I can get |
| 22:23.21 | sbromwich | *sigh* |
| 22:23.26 | uNiXpSyChO | sbromwich: oops. bridgedriver is open |
| 22:23.30 | sbromwich | not quite the open source phone of my dreams then :-( |
| 22:23.43 | phil_bw | woo, think a transformer just blew up outside |
| 22:23.47 | uNiXpSyChO | sbromwich: i had trouble twaeking my kernels because of those modules |
| 22:23.52 | sbromwich | still winner of "least worst phone" though |
| 22:24.00 | sbromwich | I don't suppose you have a list of them anywhere? |
| 22:24.10 | sbromwich | or a pointer to said list? |
| 22:24.24 | uNiXpSyChO | sbromwich: if you build with not using Source module version magic the modules *might* load. |
| 22:24.35 | *** join/#webos-internals dpivs (~dpivs@ppp-71-135-229-252.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net) |
| 22:24.44 | sbromwich | k |
| 22:25.00 | sbromwich | oh... I hear talk of an emulator... did you get your kernel booting under that? |
| 22:25.28 | uNiXpSyChO | sd8xxx bridgedriver bc_example omaplfb pvrsrvkm |
| 22:25.38 | sbromwich | danke |
| 22:25.57 | uNiXpSyChO | bridgedriver is open now and compiles, the others are missing and are not GPL from modinfo |
| 22:26.34 | sbromwich | bum. |
| 22:26.41 | sbromwich | well, this might be useful as a proof of concept |
| 22:27.23 | uNiXpSyChO | yep. let us know how you make out. I tired Preempt but fails... i knew it would but thought i'd humor myself. |
| 22:27.44 | sbromwich | working on getting the 3rd of 11 failed patches integrated |
| 22:27.50 | sbromwich | so far it's been pretty straightforward |
| 22:28.27 | sbromwich | I think I'm about to hit a bit of a sod with include/asm-arm/futex.h as there's arm assembler and I haven't touched that before |
| 22:29.01 | uNiXpSyChO | i havent touched assumbler since 6502C |
| 22:30.08 | sbromwich | 80186 and some TI DSP chip were my last encounters |
| 22:30.13 | sbromwich | TMS320C52? |
| 22:30.29 | sbromwich | neither of which will really get me anywhere here ;-) |
| 22:30.54 | uNiXpSyChO | i would have to restore backup tapes for my brain from the mid 80's to remember which exact chip :) |
| 22:31.32 | sbromwich | I stopped in 97 |
| 22:33.02 | uNiXpSyChO | rwhitby: I assume we have to make/add the patch to PmNetConfigManager in that package |
| 22:36.00 | rwhitby | uNiXpSyChO: yeah, I need to update AUPT to support custom bits of code in the postinst and prerm scripts. |
| 22:38.31 | dtzWill | sbromwich: i asked you about binary modules last night, and your reply had me thinking you had some gameplan to handle that |
| 22:38.38 | dtzWill | sbromwich: was curious/excited to see that hehe |
| 22:39.15 | sbromwich | try it and see |
| 22:39.25 | sbromwich | worst case scenario it's a failed experiment |
| 22:40.30 | sbromwich | I just wish someone hadn't had the desire to reformat the code to make it look "pretty" and thus breaking patches |
| 22:40.49 | loot- | i cant say i blame them |
| 22:41.00 | loot- | i cant stand looking at fugly code |
| 22:41.17 | loot- | why cant people just write like dennis richie? |
| 22:41.18 | sbromwich | this isn't fugly code though |
| 22:41.22 | loot- | make it easy on all of us, for the love of god |
| 22:41.37 | sbromwich | __futex_atomic_op("mov %0, %3", ret, oldval, uaddr, oparg); |
| 22:41.39 | sbromwich | to: |
| 22:41.40 | sbromwich | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:41.41 | sbromwich | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:41.47 | dtzWill | sbromwich: understood re: experiment. good luck :) |
| 22:41.58 | sbromwich | thanks :-) |
| 22:42.49 | loot- | i still dont understand peoples obssession with removing white space from code |
| 22:43.01 | loot- | instead of doing things proper like |
| 22:43.04 | loot- | if (blah) |
| 22:43.05 | loot- | { |
| 22:43.11 | loot- | <tab>yourcodehere; |
| 22:43.12 | loot- | } |
| 22:43.15 | loot- | turned into |
| 22:43.45 | loot- | if(blah){OmGl4570FuNc710N();} |
| 22:43.58 | sbromwich | job security, usually |
| 22:44.12 | loot- | job security? |
| 22:44.30 | Robi_ | mmm interesting |
| 22:44.32 | Robi_ | http://forums.precentral.net/2356081-post23.html |
| 22:44.35 | sbromwich | if you're the only one who can understand the code and it's mission critical... job for life. |
| 22:44.40 | loot- | every time ive done professional code... its always exceptionally frowned upon to cut corners and kill white space |
| 22:44.45 | sbromwich | I see that a lot in healthcare |
| 22:44.49 | sbromwich | oh yeah |
| 22:44.59 | *** join/#webos-internals Adora (~Adora@palm-64-28-152-131.palm.com) |
| 22:45.04 | phil_bw | my code is as spread out as it can get, and I assure you, I'm the only one who can read it... |
| 22:45.24 | loot- | why does everyone always think that too? |
| 22:45.25 | loot- | its CODE |
| 22:45.32 | sbromwich | I insist that my team document all their code, check it into svn, do proper test runs, etc... The unix dept is the only dept at our HA that is so stringent. |
| 22:45.36 | loot- | i dont care how you format it... in the end i will figure it out either way |
| 22:45.50 | sbromwich | the patient registration people did a rollout of new code to the desktops without testing it in the field first. |
| 22:45.55 | sbromwich | developmestruction at its finest. |
| 22:45.56 | phil_bw | oh I don |
| 22:46.01 | phil_bw | 't do it so people cant read it |
| 22:46.06 | phil_bw | I just don't comment worth a crap |
| 22:46.22 | loot- | ya im not a comment nazi either tbh |
| 22:46.32 | loot- | comments are for people that probably shouldnt be coding in the first place |
| 22:46.35 | loot- | lol |
| 22:46.39 | sbromwich | if the code is reasonably legible comments are laregely unnecessary |
| 22:46.41 | loot- | like... ok comment your function header |
| 22:46.48 | loot- | but comments after every 2 lines of code? |
| 22:46.52 | sbromwich | I prefer to have debug printfs that double as comments |
| 22:47.02 | sbromwich | that's a sign of a consultant being paid by the line |
| 22:47.20 | phil_bw | I tend to think of the comment as a replacement for delete when I don't want to use a piece of code anymore... |
| 22:47.46 | loot- | not i... i love deleting crap code |
| 22:47.53 | loot- | i keep revs of everything anyways |
| 22:47.58 | loot- | so who needs garbage code |
| 22:48.01 | loot- | nuke and move on |
| 22:48.03 | phil_bw | I always think "I'll need that code later" |
| 22:48.14 | sbromwich | that's what cvs/svn/git are for |
| 22:48.19 | loot- | exactly |
| 22:48.21 | phil_bw | then two years later I see it and think "why is this still here" |
| 22:48.23 | sbromwich | svn diff -rnnnn file.pl |
| 22:48.36 | zsoc | This channel officially moves too fast for me to keep up. |
| 22:48.43 | sbromwich | *grin* |
| 22:49.03 | zsoc | er, well _while_ i'm debugging compiler errors |
| 22:51.20 | *** join/#webos-internals leonardo (~leonardo@host250-71-dynamic.9-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 22:51.51 | *** join/#webos-internals sammyc (~sam@70-36-145-40.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) |
| 23:04.59 | *** join/#webos-internals deadsix (~ad3fd3fd@gateway/web/freenode/x-ptsfeipdddcxzhob) |
| 23:05.30 | deadsix | hello? |
| 23:06.08 | bpadalino | hi? |
| 23:06.30 | *** part/#webos-internals dpivs (~dpivs@ppp-71-135-229-252.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net) |
| 23:07.48 | deadsix | hey would you happen to know how to read NV_items. |
| 23:08.37 | deadsix | I'm SSH'd into my pre and I want to read certain NV_items but I'm not having any luck |
| 23:09.30 | bpadalino | NV_items ? |
| 23:10.26 | *** join/#webos-internals latta (~latta@c-24-218-167-23.hsd1.vt.comcast.net) |
| 23:10.50 | rwhitby | bbl |
| 23:11.53 | deadsix | yes ummm thats what they're called I wrote to them like this: sudo PmModemFactory ân write 9047 |
| 23:13.10 | bpadalino | ah, screwing with the modem ? |
| 23:15.13 | uNiXpSyChO | wouldnt QPST do the same thing? |
| 23:20.11 | deadsix | yes i am |
| 23:20.33 | deadsix | it should but I dont know how to read NV_items in OPST |
| 23:21.05 | uNiXpSyChO | there is a menu option to read NV_Items IIRC. i have used it before to hack radio firmware |
| 23:22.43 | deadsix | hmm taking a look now |
| 23:24.54 | deadsix | RF NV manager looks like it |
| 23:25.02 | uNiXpSyChO | cool |
| 23:25.53 | zsoc | morphis would know more, iirc he completely reverse engineered all functions of the radio in the Pre |
| 23:28.33 | sampson | why did he do that |
| 23:29.55 | bpadalino | to get rid of all the palm bits .. |
| 23:30.01 | zsoc | fsp.org i believe |
| 23:30.02 | bpadalino | and make it a fully open source phone |
| 23:30.10 | sampson | lol |
| 23:30.11 | zsoc | at least i think he's will the freesmartphone people |
| 23:30.37 | zsoc | s/will/with/ |
| 23:31.07 | sampson | is he working on gnu/pre |
| 23:31.37 | sampson | tpift - this pre is free tpift |
| 23:32.10 | sampson | actually it should be tpif - tpif is free |
| 23:32.20 | sampson | oh i fail back to eating |
| 23:32.33 | sampson | recursive acronym failure galore right here |
| 23:33.51 | zsoc | that's as bad as i've scene |
| 23:33.55 | zsoc | s/scene/seen/ |
| 23:33.58 | zsoc | ok i'll stop talking |
| 23:34.16 | sbromwich | I don't suppose I'm inordinately lucky and someone has a chroot for compiling kernels for the pre? |
| 23:34.29 | sbromwich | I think I have the pre patch and -rt integrated together... maybe |
| 23:34.37 | zsoc | sbromwich: there's a general debian chroot for a standard build environment? |
| 23:34.49 | sbromwich | yeah, something I can download and leave running overnight |
| 23:34.52 | sampson | zsoc: lol |
| 23:34.57 | sbromwich | I don't have enough space on my pre for a kernel compile |
| 23:35.14 | zsoc | sbromwich: otherwise the widk, and it's easy to do in gentoo with crossdev |
| 23:35.23 | *** join/#webos-internals playya_ (~playya@unaffiliated/playya) |
| 23:35.28 | sbromwich | widk? |
| 23:35.34 | zsoc | ... are you serious? |
| 23:35.36 | sampson | zsoc: did you use the 800mhz patch? |
| 23:35.52 | sbromwich | about compiling? |
| 23:35.53 | sbromwich | yes |
| 23:36.12 | zsoc | sbromwich: it's our standard sb2-driven cross compile environment geared towards ub9.10 server -> http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/WebOS_Internals_PDK |
| 23:36.15 | sbromwich | however I have to do it on a rather elderly machine so it will probably run overnight |
| 23:36.26 | zsoc | ub9.10 server is perfect for old machines |
| 23:36.27 | sbromwich | ah-hah, handy, seeing as I have ubuntu on here |
| 23:36.38 | zsoc | i mean, it'll run on desktop _probably_ |
| 23:36.39 | sbromwich | it is, isn't it? ;-) |
| 23:36.55 | sbromwich | well, I installed from the alternate disk |
| 23:36.56 | zsoc | sbromwich: it's a LOT of downloading tho.. there's toolchains and a doctor image... etc etc |
| 23:37.02 | zsoc | that should work then |
| 23:37.43 | zsoc | sbromwich: skip the last "make stage" command, you'll be there all day and it's just building things you aren't using for this. You can try make stage'ing a single package in packages/ somewhere to test the toolchain |
| 23:37.55 | sampson | don't forget to have your first born ready to sacrifice |
| 23:38.01 | sampson | and if you don't have that a cat will do |
| 23:38.21 | sbromwich | thanks for the info |
| 23:39.03 | zsoc | sbromwich: np, and i don't mind troubleshooting it, it's a pretty well thought-out environment |
| 23:39.07 | *** join/#webos-internals en0x (portman@forgottenlabs/admin/en0x) |
| 23:39.24 | sbromwich | well, I suppose step one is to get the palm sdk installed... ;-) |
| 23:39.34 | zsoc | step 1 is to follow those steps |
| 23:39.37 | zsoc | what do you need the palm sdk for? |
| 23:39.57 | sbromwich | The webOS Internals team strongly suggest apt-get install into that environment only for this purpose. The same installation of Sun Virtualbox which hosts the Palm SDK emulator can host an Ubuntu 9.10 server with very little effort. |
| 23:40.03 | sbromwich | it's only the virutalbox it needs? |
| 23:40.25 | zsoc | I'm confused by your question. |
| 23:40.37 | zsoc | You don't need anything from the SDK to run this cross-compiling environment. |
| 23:40.39 | dtzWill | sbromwich: if you push the source somewhere others could build it for ya :). you really deserve a build machine faster than yuor pre |
| 23:40.42 | sbromwich | it seems to imply that the palm sdk emulator needs to be installed |
| 23:41.05 | zsoc | sbromwich: what it's saying is, if you ALREADY HAVE the SDK installed, you can use that same virtualbox version that it comes with |
| 23:41.15 | sbromwich | ah, ok |
| 23:41.34 | sbromwich | I have ubuntu installed with the novaterm client |
| 23:41.36 | zsoc | i'd let you ssh into one of my boxes, but right now i have a terminal window open with 6 tabs going to various places and some are chroots are some are ssh's and i have no idea where i am half the time |
| 23:41.41 | sbromwich | that's pretty much about it |
| 23:42.01 | zsoc | sbromwich: if you follow the instructions exactly on that wiki, it'll work. or take dtzWill's advice and let someone else build them |
| 23:42.03 | sbromwich | let me have a skim through the *whole* document before I start trying to implement what I think should be on there then ;-) |
| 23:42.34 | sbromwich | if it's a virtualbox I can chuck it on a usb stick and run it off a machine at work next time I bother going to the office |
| 23:42.42 | zsoc | sbromwich: good idea |
| 23:43.08 | zsoc | sbromwich: I run mine in a headless virtualbox, and SSH to it (using a virtualbox foward from 2222 host to 22 guest), makes life easy |
| 23:49.38 | sbromwich | hmmm, with a 92 meg bz2 for the toolchain maybe the usb stick option is a little... optimistic |
| 23:49.45 | lingfish | Oh, awesome... I seem to have a timezone bug :( |
| 23:50.52 | sbromwich | and out of curiosity... did anyone else try making /var/log mount with data=writeback instead of /var? |
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| 23:58.53 | *** join/#webos-internals deadsix (~ad3fd3fd@gateway/web/freenode/x-qqygezxxtzrhwxlm) |
