| 00:00.16 | *** join/#wowace Shirik (n=Shirik@conspiracy/developer/Shirik) |
| 00:00.16 | *** mode/#wowace [+v Shirik] by ChanServ |
| 00:05.38 | Antiarc | I'm doing to pop up a giant DO NOT DONATE TO ME banner in my addons now, I think |
| 00:05.44 | Antiarc | So I'm NOT requesting donations. |
| 00:06.27 | NeoTron | ... |
| 00:06.31 | Hjalte | Uh, you need to tell me where not to donate! |
| 00:06.42 | Slazher | can anyone give me that macro that identifys interframe elements? |
| 00:06.52 | NeoTron | Antiarc: does that mean you'll start updating your addons then? ;-) |
| 00:06.55 | Slazher | interface* |
| 00:06.58 | Antiarc | Heh. |
| 00:07.15 | Antiarc | I don't have time to play WoW, let alone code for it these days :P |
| 00:07.19 | Antiarc | I'm hoping that'll change |
| 00:07.39 | Antiarc | But I spent 20 hours yesterday in gdb debugging heap leaks in ruby |
| 00:07.49 | harl | can a level 67 use one of the zeppelins to northrend? |
| 00:08.12 | kagaro | Antiarc: ouch |
| 00:08.25 | *** join/#wowace Thelyna (n=burp@122-57-249-52.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) |
| 00:08.28 | NeoTron | harl: nothing prevents you from stepping onto one |
| 00:08.32 | Grum | Antiarc: for pleasure or was it just broken? |
| 00:08.32 | kagaro | strace not do it for you? |
| 00:08.46 | Antiarc | I'm trying to track down a leak in one of my apps |
| 00:08.49 | Antiarc | And it's being a bitch to find |
| 00:09.02 | Grum | you are a ruby dev or? :p |
| 00:09.11 | Grum | just someone who ran into a broken thingie? :D |
| 00:09.19 | NeoTron | Antiarc: so maybe use valgrind instead of gdb might help? ;-) |
| 00:09.23 | Antiarc | I'm not a language dev, but I do develop in Ruby |
| 00:09.32 | Antiarc | NeoTron: Yeah, I use valgrind too. |
| 00:09.48 | Antiarc | valgrind, bleak_house, gdb, strace, the whole gamut |
| 00:09.48 | NeoTron | granted it might not be an actual leak when it comes to interpreted languages |
| 00:10.05 | Shefki | You use Valgrind to find the areas to look, but sometimes you've got to use gdb to finish tracking it down. |
| 00:10.34 | kagaro | dtrace _ Ida Pro |
| 00:10.40 | Antiarc | It's a heap leak, but I'm getting into the C to track down where |
| 00:10.50 | Antiarc | I just have references that are never released, and thus never collected |
| 00:10.54 | Antiarc | It's not a langauge leak |
| 00:11.05 | kagaro | gotcha |
| 00:11.18 | Antiarc | But the in-language tools have proved insufficient to track it down, so I'm going lower level so I can track reference assignments and the like |
| 00:11.19 | NivFreak | harl: before lvl 68, I believe zoning on one of those blimps returns you to a GY |
| 00:12.48 | weab | i see now my mistake. i hadn't unchecked the option under the wow specific section of the curse client |
| 00:12.55 | JCinDE | Is there any particular broker display bar (fubar replacement) that's generally considered better than the others? |
| 00:13.05 | Xinhuan | JCinDE, no ;p |
| 00:13.06 | weab | why's there even an option in the general options for it, if it's game specific? |
| 00:13.17 | harl | NivFreak: yet, a warlock can summon anyone to northrend no matter the level, and i've seen a level 3 once running around in dalaran. |
| 00:13.33 | JCinDE | Xinhuan heh ok. I'll try ChocolateBar then since it makes me hungry. |
| 00:14.00 | NivFreak | harl: yep |
| 00:14.04 | harl | just wondering, since a few minutes ago i told a 67 that she could already go to northrend and now i'm not sure about that anymore. |
| 00:14.19 | NivFreak | harl: I could be wrong |
| 00:14.31 | NeoTron | JCinDE: basically it's personal preference |
| 00:14.46 | NeoTron | harl: they can't quest there till 68 |
| 00:14.50 | harl | i only know that i just dropped of the zeppelin into the water when i tried to use it without having wotlk. |
| 00:14.56 | NivFreak | harl: In fact... I think I remember taking a lvl 1 on the PTR to howling fjord via the blimp |
| 00:15.07 | *** join/#wowace teilzeitstudent_ (n=teilzeit@p5B17D021.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 00:15.13 | NivFreak | so now I have mixed memories ;P |
| 00:15.28 | harl | hm ok. we'll see. |
| 00:15.41 | Shefki | The blimps on the PTR were buggy for a while and if you moved while on them it would disconnect you. |
| 00:16.12 | Shefki | You had to get lucky with logging in at the right time when they were docked... or finally get a GM to move you. |
| 00:16.19 | Shefki | Sometimes they were creative with where they moved you. |
| 00:16.30 | Shefki | They put my DK in freaking Darnassus. |
| 00:16.38 | NivFreak | the GY port might have actually been at wrath launch, before they enabled northrend |
| 00:17.06 | Shefki | Needless to say I stopped messing with my DK, leaving Darnassus was too much work. :P |
| 00:17.06 | NivFreak | I normally just BG queue my alts to dalaran |
| 00:17.07 | harl | lol, shefki |
| 00:17.37 | Stanzilla | In a recent e-mail, Microsoft has asked its IE8 testers to keep testing for bugs that were previously marked as fixed. |
| 00:17.37 | Stanzilla | yay good job |
| 00:17.43 | NivFreak | I was disappointed to find I couldn't summon my DK out of ebon hold before completing the starting area event =( |
| 00:18.25 | *** join/#wowace Shirik (n=Shirik@ip72-219-226-248.dc.dc.cox.net) |
| 00:18.37 | harl | makes sense though |
| 00:18.40 | *** mode/#wowace [+v Shirik] by ChanServ |
| 00:18.57 | harl | from a story-based point of view |
| 00:21.34 | *** join/#wowace ckknight (n=ckknight@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/CurseStaff/CurseForge/ckknight) |
| 00:21.34 | *** mode/#wowace [+o ckknight] by ChanServ |
| 00:28.51 | JCinDE | Gah. I keep going back to FuBar. It's still just the best. |
| 00:29.47 | ilovemrdoe | dockingstation is pretty awesome |
| 00:31.54 | Toadkiller | NivFreak: why would any ally or horde in their right mind summon a scourge out of Ebon Hold? |
| 00:32.09 | Shefki | Fun. |
| 00:32.12 | Shefki | Excitement. |
| 00:32.18 | Toadkiller | good points |
| 00:32.20 | Shefki | Kill the enemey in the middle of town easily. |
| 00:32.43 | Shefki | The better question is why any scourge in their right mind would accept such a summon. |
| 00:32.44 | NivFreak | Toadkiller: to dance on a mailbox clearly |
| 00:33.09 | Slazher | can anyone give me that macro that identifys interface elements? |
| 00:33.09 | Toadkiller | Ah ok, so u summon it, tell it to dance, then shoot at its feet with a gun? |
| 00:35.31 | Toadkiller | Why does aceconfig3 lack an icon button? It is such a basic part of the blizz ui? Are people really rolling their own widget each time they need to show an arrow or something? |
| 00:36.11 | Xinhuan | Toadkiller, it really hasn't been necessary for like... 1.5 years now |
| 00:36.23 | Xinhuan | yes, ace3's been out that long |
| 00:36.24 | Toadkiller | What has not been necessary? |
| 00:36.29 | Xinhuan | the icon button |
| 00:36.52 | Toadkiller | It has not been necessary because people avoid making a good ui? |
| 00:37.17 | Toadkiller | "Aceconfig3 doesnt have it, I guess I will just have to make do with something crap"? |
| 00:38.11 | NivFreak | Toadkiller: I have little interest in RP, I just wanted another mule ;) |
| 00:38.23 | NivFreak | but yes I understand why it's restricted |
| 00:38.33 | Toadkiller | It is in aceconfig2, it is all over the blizz ui, it is in every single goddamn ui toolkit on the face of the planet ... except aceconfig3 |
| 00:39.03 | Xinhuan | well i'll be honest here, "demanding it in that tone you are currently using" isn't really helping |
| 00:39.07 | Toadkiller | NivFreak: yeah lvl banker > 55 insta not banker for 2 more levels |
| 00:39.16 | Toadkiller | *lvl 1 |
| 00:39.16 | NeoTron | Toadkiller: considered making a patch? |
| 00:39.27 | Xinhuan | we're here to help each other |
| 00:39.41 | Xinhuan | i offered some alternative method on the forums |
| 00:39.51 | Xinhuan | or you can write that widget, and i'll try to get it added to ace3 core |
| 00:39.54 | Toadkiller | NeoTron: I had to patch aceconfig2 already. dont wanna go down that road |
| 00:40.25 | NeoTron | put up or shut up I say :P |
| 00:40.42 | NeoTron | or put a ticket in and perhaps someone else will add it |
| 00:40.53 | *** join/#wowace Odlaw (n=ozzy@c-98-245-39-78.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 00:42.38 | Slazher | im trying to attatch kgpanel frames to interface elements, but i cant remember the macro that tells me what that element is called, anyone knows? |
| 00:42.45 | NivFreak | Toadkiller: trade skills what? :) |
| 00:42.57 | Antiarc | You know |
| 00:43.11 | Antiarc | This whole debacle reminds me of the time I thought about writing LibAdNetwork |
| 00:43.39 | Xinhuan | LOL |
| 00:43.44 | Antiarc | Which would serve as a means of transmitting and assembling ads as a matrix of RGB values |
| 00:44.05 | Antiarc | (totally a joke, BTW) |
| 00:44.19 | Xinhuan | hey now, we talked about an ingame bittorrent-like thingy before, for secure transmitting/receiving addon updates for loadstring() |
| 00:44.20 | Xinhuan | :P |
| 00:44.37 | Toadkiller | Xinhuan: yeah I saw that. It doesnt work well in practice though for what I need because I would have to change the slider to only update on release instead of as you go. Or I can stick with manual editing of a value, then resort upon edit. |
| 00:45.14 | Xinhuan | i've had exactly one case in my last year of addon writing that has to do with up/down ordering of a list of items |
| 00:45.53 | Toadkiller | NeoTron: Like a patch of AceconfigDialog + the widget? Or a private patch so I can just make it do whatever I want and then deal with people complaining later if the patch is disallowed for the main branch? |
| 00:46.20 | NeoTron | Toadkiller: the first might be more useful but you acan perhaps make a custom widget |
| 00:46.23 | Xinhuan | the point though, is that such a list of items "rare enough" that you should really have a custom UI for it |
| 00:46.38 | Xinhuan | extremely few addons need this |
| 00:46.46 | *** join/#wowace Baraius (n=bhuddles@70.114.244.248) |
| 00:46.49 | NeoTron | I made some goddamn awfuly stuff for MagicDKP (a widged that shows an item link with mouseover tooltip and shift linking that pretends to be another widget) |
| 00:47.06 | Toadkiller | Yes but up down is just my need right now. What about all the other cases you just want an icon button to click on? |
| 00:47.16 | Xinhuan | i use text |
| 00:47.22 | NeoTron | and I have the priorititized list widget for MagicMarker |
| 00:47.30 | NeoTron | with up/down to move around |
| 00:47.32 | Toadkiller | Too large, especially once its in German |
| 00:47.33 | qwesto | Slazher, /run ChatFrame1:AddMessage(GetMouseFocus():GetName()) or something like it |
| 00:47.46 | Slazher | thanks alot |
| 00:47.48 | Xinhuan | or if you are really desperate, embed the texture |
| 00:47.48 | NeoTron | in MagicLooter I just use a input box with new line separated entries |
| 00:47.50 | Xinhuan | in the string |
| 00:47.56 | *** join/#wowace Baraius_ (n=bhuddles@70.114.244.248) |
| 00:48.14 | JCinDE | Anyone have a favorite mod for mobilizing all the standard UI frames? |
| 00:48.39 | NeoTron | Toadkiller: if you're interested, check MMCCPrio.lua in MagicMarker |
| 00:48.50 | NeoTron | not sure if that's what you want but alas |
| 00:48.52 | Toadkiller | NeoTron: yeas and I did the exact same item link widget for AutoBar |
| 00:49.55 | Xinhuan | ya well boils down to the point that very few addons need this kind of widgets |
| 00:49.55 | NeoTron | the main issue I have with aceconfig is that it doesn't support just a "custom" entity |
| 00:49.55 | Xinhuan | which is why it isn't in the core |
| 00:49.55 | NeoTron | you have to hack shit into something it's not |
| 00:49.59 | Toadkiller | I do not mind that things are not in the core, but the extension mechanism is so restrictive its ridiculous |
| 00:50.12 | NeoTron | ^ that |
| 00:50.22 | Xinhuan | that will be because of the optiontable format, which has to be compliant with other non-acegui means of implementing the same table |
| 00:50.40 | NeoTron | I'd argue that it's a bad reason |
| 00:50.51 | NeoTron | since there's currently no other displayers |
| 00:50.51 | Xinhuan | we argued that before, ace3 team didn't budge |
| 00:51.05 | NeoTron | there's config dialog and command line |
| 00:51.21 | NeoTron | and most of the time I don't put the same thing for both because my ui's would be horrible as command line |
| 00:51.24 | Xinhuan | it worked pretty ok for ace2's option table format, which had multiple displayers |
| 00:51.25 | Toadkiller | No its because the paramaters are hard core checked to ONLY produce the limited set of widgets in aceconfig. Everything else has to be an extension of an input |
| 00:51.39 | NeoTron | Xinhuan: sure but in practice that doesn't exist now |
| 00:52.05 | Xinhuan | can't really do much, the acegui author hasn't been seen for months in this channel |
| 00:52.09 | Xinhuan | nevcairiel is the person to bug now |
| 00:52.44 | NeoTron | now when you say it, who's the actual author? I though nevcairiel was the main one :P |
| 00:53.10 | NeoTron | @project ace3 |
| 00:53.11 | Repo | NeoTron: More than one project was returned. Try supplying a game. Possible games: WoW, WAR. |
| 00:53.14 | Repo | 10combo-points-redux: 03Starinnia * r63 Core.lua: unbreak the options table |
| 00:53.21 | NeoTron | @project ace3 WoW |
| 00:53.29 | Repo | NeoTron: More than one project was returned. Try supplying a game. Possible games: WoW, WAR. |
| 00:53.31 | NeoTron | err |
| 00:53.32 | NivFreak | lol |
| 00:53.36 | NeoTron | how do you supply a game? :P |
| 00:53.41 | NeoTron | @project WoW ace3 |
| 00:53.43 | Repo | NeoTron: http://wow.curseforge.com/projects/project-17136/. sueie. Game: WoW. Status: Deleted. This does not appear to be an appropriate project.. antionjaxter (Manager/Author). Updated: 77 days ago |
| 00:53.45 | NeoTron | there we go |
| 00:53.49 | Toadkiller | I think u need to buy it first for $60 |
| 00:53.50 | NivFreak | deleted |
| 00:53.51 | NeoTron | or not |
| 00:53.51 | NivFreak | nice |
| 00:53.54 | NeoTron | hehe |
| 00:53.57 | NeoTron | @project |
| 00:54.00 | NeoTron | I fail at @project |
| 00:54.03 | Repo | NeoTron: (project <project> or <game>/<project>) -- Returns details about the project |
| 00:54.07 | Xinhuan | @project wow/ace3 |
| 00:54.09 | Repo | Xinhuan: http://www.wowace.com/projects/ace3/. Ace3. Game: WoW. Kaelten (Manager/Author), Ammo (Author), Antiarc (Author), mikk (Author), Nargiddley (Author), Nevcairiel (Author/Maintainer). Updated: 5 days ago. Tickets: 6/28 |
| 00:54.09 | Xinhuan | i win |
| 00:54.42 | NivFreak | of that author list, who has contributed the least code |
| 00:54.49 | Toadkiller | Last person I know that was fixing bugs in there was mikk |
| 00:56.15 | NivFreak | quick, someone start an addon union |
| 00:56.16 | NeoTron | Xinhuan: so you talking about... Ammo? |
| 00:56.28 | NeoTron | or Nargiddley? |
| 00:56.36 | Xinhuan | narg |
| 00:57.00 | NeoTron | it definitely feels in a way that Ace as a framework has halted in its development |
| 00:57.08 | NeoTron | now it's a hosting solution more than anything |
| 00:57.49 | Toadkiller | btw I am just bitter because I tried real hard to get a better extension mechanism way back. |
| 00:57.55 | fry | hahahahah |
| 00:58.00 | fry | the new addon policies |
| 00:58.41 | *** join/#wowace BWMerlin (n=BW~Merli@58.174.148.250) |
| 01:01.16 | NivFreak | I really don't get why people keep bringing up glider |
| 01:01.34 | NeoTron | lack of knowledge? |
| 01:01.44 | NivFreak | well that's clear |
| 01:01.45 | NeoTron | or they like apples but only have an orange |
| 01:01.46 | NivFreak | but silly |
| 01:02.21 | NivFreak | I get half way through reading a post that looks alright, see glider, and just abort there |
| 01:02.29 | Toadkiller | so neotron = dhedbor? |
| 01:02.35 | NivFreak | yes |
| 01:02.36 | NeoTron | yes |
| 01:02.41 | NeoTron | neotron was taken... |
| 01:02.44 | Antiarc | So I had a thought |
| 01:02.45 | Toadkiller | I learned something! wooo |
| 01:02.48 | NeoTron | tried the "change your name" form on wwoace but didn't work |
| 01:02.54 | Antiarc | Does the obfuscation clause ban Alar's addons? |
| 01:02.55 | NivFreak | you should get someone to remove that neotron account |
| 01:03.01 | NivFreak | lol |
| 01:03.03 | NeoTron | Antiarc: i don't think bad code is covered :P |
| 01:03.08 | Antiarc | Because at what point does "unreadable code" become "obfuscated code"? :V |
| 01:03.21 | Antiarc | I dunno, I've read his code and said "WTF does this do?!" |
| 01:03.25 | Antiarc | That sounds like obfuscated to me! |
| 01:03.26 | Antiarc | :V |
| 01:03.27 | Toadkiller | lol yeah i am stuck with Azethoth. Its total bs but it keeps coming down to "It can be done but its like complicated and im too lazy" |
| 01:04.08 | Toadkiller | Dunno about Alar, but lord farlander is totally screwed amirite? |
| 01:04.16 | NivFreak | curse should let accounts that actually publish addons have first picks at names ;) |
| 01:04.33 | Antiarc | "Add-ons will perform no function which, in Blizzard Entertainmentâs sole discretion, negatively impacts the performance of the World of Warcraft realms or otherwise negatively affects the game for other players. For example, this includes but is not limited to excessive use of the chat system, unnecessary loading from the hard disk, and slow frame rates. " |
| 01:04.35 | Antiarc | :VVVVVVVV |
| 01:04.45 | Toadkiller | They sort of promised that but did not deliver |
| 01:04.50 | Antiarc | Bad code is outlawed! |
| 01:05.00 | NeoTron | Antiarc: indeed. I wonder how they can enforce that |
| 01:05.02 | NivFreak | Antiarc: no more channel communication I suppose |
| 01:05.04 | NeoTron | and also why it matters... |
| 01:05.13 | Toadkiller | not bad code, just slow code! |
| 01:05.20 | Antiarc | Also, <insert juvenile KTM jab here> |
| 01:05.24 | NeoTron | I can see things that do excessive network traffic I guess |
| 01:05.24 | Toadkiller | If you can write fast bad code ur ok |
| 01:05.38 | Antiarc | But network traffic is throttled |
| 01:06.00 | NeoTron | Antiarc: but even so if you use it to its max, that can reduce performance |
| 01:06.13 | Toadkiller | I wonder if they are goign to start nerfingin individual addons based on that or are jsut clearing stuff up for the carbonite noobs? |
| 01:06.15 | Antiarc | NeoTron: Sure, I don't disagree |
| 01:06.17 | NeoTron | I think someone said carbonite sent many messages per seconds with status updates to GUILD addon channel |
| 01:06.21 | NivFreak | clearly this is all just a ploy to soften you guys up to the job offers being mailed out |
| 01:06.24 | NivFreak | :P |
| 01:06.48 | Antiarc | Also |
| 01:06.49 | Toadkiller | I accept! |
| 01:06.52 | NivFreak | oh man, carbonite was aweful |
| 01:07.00 | Antiarc | This policy squarely kills http://thepiratebootybay.com/ |
| 01:07.03 | NeoTron | me2! |
| 01:07.05 | NivFreak | I forgot about all the guild position and KoS stuff built in |
| 01:07.07 | Antiarc | How will I pirate free addons?! |
| 01:07.34 | NivFreak | pirate booty bay? |
| 01:07.35 | NivFreak | wth? |
| 01:08.57 | Toadkiller | arrrr |
| 01:09.22 | Antiarc | k, date night with my wife, see you all later |
| 01:09.46 | *** join/#wowace Fatalus (n=gaben@68-188-68-189.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com) |
| 01:11.52 | NivFreak | so, what was Mazzlegasm anyway |
| 01:12.09 | Shefki | You really don't want to know. |
| 01:12.12 | NivFreak | somehow I missed this |
| 01:12.33 | Shefki | But if you must know use some of that googlefu of yours. |
| 01:12.38 | NivFreak | I am doing it activily |
| 01:12.42 | NivFreak | you are one of my search boxes |
| 01:12.48 | NivFreak | why go with a single source |
| 01:13.05 | NivFreak | so far I've mostly found mods to block it, and scripts to strip it |
| 01:13.06 | NivFreak | heh |
| 01:13.49 | NivFreak | it was just the yell that caused the drama? |
| 01:14.57 | Shefki | http://www.wowinterface.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8459 |
| 01:15.02 | Shefki | Read and enjoy. |
| 01:15.05 | Shefki | Popcorn is recommended. |
| 01:15.28 | Axodious | so what are the negative effects of the new addon dev policies on wowace/curse? |
| 01:15.38 | Axodious | (just got hom) |
| 01:15.40 | Axodious | +e |
| 01:15.44 | Pneumatus | zorba needs to get a new job |
| 01:15.51 | NivFreak | lol |
| 01:16.09 | NeoTron | s/ new // |
| 01:17.06 | Pneumatus | tru dat |
| 01:17.42 | NivFreak | in general, I'd be concerned if anyone decided to make a living off a single addon for wow |
| 01:17.53 | NivFreak | that doesn't seem like a very stable income source |
| 01:18.04 | NivFreak | images of 'the guild' start to appear |
| 01:18.32 | Axodious | anyone know what caused it? |
| 01:18.32 | NivFreak | but hey, it's cool if it works for them |
| 01:18.35 | Axodious | i have a pretty good idea |
| 01:18.37 | NivFreak | Axodious: carbonite |
| 01:18.40 | NivFreak | likely |
| 01:18.41 | Axodious | yep |
| 01:18.44 | Axodious | specificly |
| 01:18.47 | Axodious | his new "version" |
| 01:18.50 | Axodious | carbonite ads |
| 01:18.58 | Axodious | it's the full version of carbonite with advertisements |
| 01:19.22 | NivFreak | yep |
| 01:19.22 | Shefki | The *ONLY* problem with that, is that it probably is an issue for Blizzard's contract with Microsoft. |
| 01:19.26 | Shefki | That's the only real issue. |
| 01:19.29 | NivFreak | Axodious: you haven't been reading the forums clearly |
| 01:19.40 | Shefki | To which I say to Blizzard, you can't sell rights you don't own. |
| 01:19.41 | NeoTron | Shefki: the other issue is that Blizzard doesn't like it |
| 01:19.44 | Axodious | NivFreak you're right :( |
| 01:19.55 | Axodious | i'm not a big forum reader |
| 01:19.55 | Axodious | >_< |
| 01:20.03 | *** join/#wowace RLD_osx (n=rldempse@66-169-191-207.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com) |
| 01:20.04 | NeoTron | like so many times befoer, they disallow things they don';t like |
| 01:20.06 | Repo | 10combo-points-redux: 03Starinnia * r64 Core.lua: |
| 01:20.09 | Repo | -really fix poison graphics not updating when envenom is used with fewer CPs than deadlys (I can't believed I overlooked this solution for so long...) |
| 01:20.18 | NeoTron | such as auto-healing addons, smart decursers, addons that move you from point A to B automatically etc |
| 01:20.19 | NivFreak | Axodious: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15864747207&sid=1 |
| 01:20.21 | *** join/#wowace Jygga (n=Jygga@dslb-088-074-010-179.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 01:20.26 | NivFreak | Axodious: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15661690616&sid=1 |
| 01:20.53 | Shefki | NeoTron: I've got no problem with them removing APIs or restrict them for gameplay reasons. |
| 01:20.57 | Shefki | This has nothing to do with the game. |
| 01:21.05 | Repo | 10combo-points-redux: 03Starinnia 041.0.8 beta5 * r65 : Tagging as 1.0.8 beta5 |
| 01:21.05 | Pneumatus | there's only so much they can do by removing parts of the API though |
| 01:21.13 | NeoTron | ^^^ |
| 01:21.30 | Shefki | If people don't like advertising don't install Carbonite with ads. |
| 01:21.34 | Shefki | End of discussion. |
| 01:21.46 | NivFreak | heh |
| 01:21.54 | NivFreak | there's a lot of good reason to forbid advertising in game |
| 01:21.56 | Shefki | It's like saying Jack in the Box can't sell Tacos because Taco Bell doesn't like it. |
| 01:21.57 | NeoTron | If Blizard doesn't like addons with ads, add rules forbidding them. |
| 01:21.58 | NivFreak | of all the things they did |
| 01:21.59 | Shefki | Deal with it. |
| 01:22.00 | NivFreak | I can get behind that one |
| 01:22.00 | NeoTron | see |
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| 01:22.30 | Axodious | i completely agree with Shefki |
| 01:22.48 | NeoTron | but you know what? Blizzard doesn't. |
| 01:23.20 | Shefki | And guess what, I don't have to make addons or play their game. I can find something else to do. |
| 01:23.23 | NivFreak | they have the ability to define rules, and you have the ability to not play wow |
| 01:23.27 | NeoTron | yeo |
| 01:23.34 | NeoTron | and you should if you feel this |
| 01:23.40 | NeoTron | and that won't really affect them |
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| 01:23.44 | *** mode/#wowace [+o ckknight_] by ChanServ |
| 01:24.52 | NeoTron | anyhow time to go home to eat dinner and continue working on my freely available, non-donation supported addons that I make because it benefits my own game play (and perhaps others!) |
| 01:24.57 | NeoTron | zing |
| 01:25.06 | Shefki | If the addon community at large gives them a big "Fuck you" it will. But me individually of course not. |
| 01:25.15 | NivFreak | NeoTron: rock on :) |
| 01:25.26 | NeoTron | you probably exaggarate the number of peole that highly depend upon and/or develop addons |
| 01:25.36 | NeoTron | it's important yes but most people probably use very few if any |
| 01:26.15 | Axodious | tbh the addon dev community is close enough together to throw that big fuck you at blizz, Shefki |
| 01:26.42 | NivFreak | not everyone thinks the same way |
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| 01:27.04 | NivFreak | the most likely thing to happen is, put some pressure on blizzard to clarify thier donation restriction |
| 01:27.07 | Axodious | i think there's enough |
| 01:27.12 | NivFreak | and perhaps even retract some portion of it |
| 01:27.30 | Axodious | well that's pretty much what i'd like to see |
| 01:27.35 | Axodious | donations are donations |
| 01:27.38 | Axodious | they aren't forced |
| 01:27.43 | Shefki | NivFreak: If they removed the all addons must be free, which I find offensive because I own my own copyrights and not them. |
| 01:27.48 | NeoTron | my addons are pitifully small compared to "the big ones" but alas |
| 01:27.49 | Shefki | And they remove the donation bull. |
| 01:27.56 | Shefki | I can live with the advertising restriction. |
| 01:28.03 | Shefki | But I think the advertising restriction is retarded. |
| 01:28.19 | NivFreak | I doubt they'll budge on pay addons at this point, they've shown thier hand |
| 01:28.32 | Axodious | NivFreak if enough devs go on strike |
| 01:28.36 | Axodious | the warcraft community complains |
| 01:28.50 | NeoTron | Axodious: I can simply say that no, that won't happen |
| 01:28.50 | Shefki | This is our only move. |
| 01:28.52 | Axodious | 95% of players use one addon or another |
| 01:28.59 | Shefki | Whining about it on the forums isn't going to do anything. |
| 01:29.06 | Shefki | Our only move is to just say, we won't accept these rules. |
| 01:29.08 | Pneumatus | i can't see the addon dev community coing on strike to support the likes of carbonite tbh |
| 01:29.15 | Shefki | You can make them and we'll abide by them by simply not making addons. |
| 01:29.27 | NivFreak | most people seem only concerned about the donations clause (of the people posting on the forums, and talking here) |
| 01:29.28 | Shefki | Pneumatus: It's not just Carbonite. |
| 01:29.32 | Axodious | ^ |
| 01:29.32 | NivFreak | clearly cogwheel isn't happy |
| 01:29.57 | NivFreak | carbonite's authors won't be happy |
| 01:29.57 | NeoTron | he could have use his green to better use than throwing a hissyfit however |
| 01:29.59 | Shefki | NivFreak: The donation clause is the most absolutely ridiculous thing. |
| 01:30.01 | Pneumatus | which other commonly used pay-for addons are the community likely to support en-masse then Shefki? |
| 01:30.17 | Shefki | Pneumatus: nUI seems to be fairly popular. |
| 01:30.26 | NivFreak | nUI is popular |
| 01:30.33 | NivFreak | and I think generally better thought of |
| 01:30.48 | Shefki | There's not a lot. |
| 01:30.51 | Shefki | Don't get me wrong. |
| 01:30.56 | Shefki | It's mostly the principle of the matter. |
| 01:31.02 | Shefki | I doubt I'd ever make a pay addon. |
| 01:31.13 | Shefki | But I refuse to have my licensing dictated to me. |
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| 01:31.25 | Axodious | it's pretty much the open source vs closed source arguement |
| 01:31.32 | Shefki | I'm not for or against either. |
| 01:31.37 | Shefki | I'm for developer choice. |
| 01:31.38 | NivFreak | no, this is all about money |
| 01:31.40 | NivFreak | :P |
| 01:31.47 | NeoTron | yes it's all about money |
| 01:31.48 | Axodious | it's not NivFreak |
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| 01:31.54 | Pneumatus | your licensing isnt being dictated, "free" doesnt mean open source |
| 01:31.54 | NeoTron | it is |
| 01:31.57 | NivFreak | on everyh side, this is all about money |
| 01:31.59 | Shefki | I have never made a dime off addons. |
| 01:32.04 | Axodious | no it really isnt |
| 01:32.07 | Axodious | it's about choice |
| 01:32.12 | NeoTron | to make money |
| 01:32.13 | NivFreak | right |
| 01:32.35 | Axodious | it's money today, it's what sites you can use tommorow |
| 01:32.36 | Shefki | this is the way I see it. |
| 01:32.44 | NivFreak | ok |
| 01:32.47 | NivFreak | take a step back for a second |
| 01:32.47 | NeoTron | I always though for-pay addons was something Blizzard should allow so I'm all for for that clause. it's dumb. if you want to make money, code your own game! |
| 01:32.53 | Shefki | There are many ways to be compenstated for your work. |
| 01:32.54 | NivFreak | they aren't banning donations |
| 01:32.59 | Pneumatus | addons must be distributed free of charge, that doesn't change what license protects your code except you can't charge for it |
| 01:33.00 | NivFreak | they are banning soliciting donations IN GAME |
| 01:33.01 | Shefki | Money isn't just the only way. |
| 01:33.11 | NivFreak | it is unclear what exactly they will enforce in game |
| 01:33.13 | NeoTron | cookies work too |
| 01:33.25 | NivFreak | and also intentionally unclear in the agreement, what they want to enforce |
| 01:33.28 | NivFreak | so |
| 01:33.29 | Shefki | Open Source licenses often use the condition of attribution and/or contrinbuting your work back as a condition. |
| 01:33.30 | NivFreak | stop freaking out |
| 01:33.32 | Shefki | See Jacobson. |
| 01:33.40 | NivFreak | wait for a response on the donations issue |
| 01:34.05 | NivFreak | I mean come on |
| 01:34.12 | NivFreak | why aren't you freaking out over the FPS clause? |
| 01:34.18 | NivFreak | that's just as vauge |
| 01:34.23 | Shefki | I think that's equally stupid. |
| 01:34.28 | NivFreak | and even more impactful if imporperly enforced |
| 01:34.41 | NivFreak | welcome to legal agreements |
| 01:34.49 | NivFreak | they make little sense outside of a legal context :P |
| 01:34.58 | Shefki | See they have thrown us into this huge ridiculous gray area now. |
| 01:35.12 | Axodious | that's what blizz likes |
| 01:35.13 | Axodious | lol |
| 01:35.22 | NivFreak | that's how it works |
| 01:35.29 | NivFreak | it's broad, it gives them the ability to enforce it |
| 01:35.46 | Shefki | We went from: If you use the API it's ok. |
| 01:35.52 | NivFreak | no |
| 01:35.55 | NivFreak | it was never that simple |
| 01:36.01 | NivFreak | maybe in text |
| 01:36.08 | NivFreak | but never in intent, or enforcement |
| 01:36.08 | Shefki | That was the stated rules. |
| 01:36.13 | Torhal | Shefki: The whole FPS thing as it is worded now, could apply to the development version of PitBull4...you haven't yet optimized the CPU usage, but you have a rather large userbase. It's just silly on Blizzard's part. |
| 01:36.28 | Shefki | Torhal: I'm completely aware of that. |
| 01:37.41 | Shefki | NivFreak: The UI policy is just flat out offensive and poorly thought out. I don't see why I should step back from feeling offended. |
| 01:38.17 | NivFreak | because you have to realise that you're dealing with adults, that have an interest in this community, and aren't likely to try and undermine it |
| 01:38.37 | NivFreak | the man isn't out to get you |
| 01:38.41 | NivFreak | unless you wrote carbonite |
| 01:38.45 | NivFreak | :) |
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| 01:39.25 | Shefki | Yes I'm secretly writing Carbonite. |
| 01:39.27 | Shefki | Hi guys. |
| 01:39.31 | NivFreak | haha |
| 01:41.22 | Daemona | i still wonder how they will enforce "For example, this includes but is not limited to excessive use of the chat system, unnecessary loading from the hard disk, and slow frame rates." |
| 01:41.42 | NivFreak | don't all those things directly describe carbonite? :) |
| 01:41.59 | Daemona | i am all for more fps, but heck, will i see a "this addon drops your fps in an unbearable way, delete it" nag screen every time quest helper loads or wuut? |
| 01:42.06 | NivFreak | haha |
| 01:42.19 | Shefki | I'm not even sure WTF excessive loading from the hard disk could possibly mean. |
| 01:42.23 | NivFreak | yea, I have a profile I load just for when I want to use quest helper |
| 01:42.25 | Pneumatus | everyone who mentions Glider in the addon policy thread makes me facepalm |
| 01:42.26 | Shefki | The damn addons load entirely all at once. |
| 01:42.30 | NivFreak | Pneumatus: ditto |
| 01:42.38 | NivFreak | Shefki: lod? |
| 01:42.41 | Shefki | We don't even have control over that crap except with lod. |
| 01:42.43 | Toadkiller | well something is loading excessively atm, so ima blame questhelper |
| 01:42.50 | NivFreak | Shefki: I was wondering if things like lightheaded might hit that policy |
| 01:43.15 | Shefki | NivFreak: Well it's their own damn fault for not letting us ask for data from the hard disk on demand. |
| 01:43.23 | Shefki | I understand why the limitation is their. |
| 01:43.36 | Shefki | But the policy reads as if the person writing it doesn't even know anything about addons. |
| 01:43.53 | Daemona | and am i violating the ToS/EULA if i use FreeRefills clicking the vendors at Darkmoon Faire? |
| 01:44.31 | thul | that thread posted over there |
| 01:44.33 | thul | was priceless |
| 01:44.34 | thul | the amount of drama |
| 01:44.59 | NivFreak | over there being the carbonite forums? |
| 01:45.21 | Arrowmaster | people want refunds? |
| 01:45.40 | Repo | 10combo-points-redux: 03Starinnia * r66 Core.lua: -remove unnecessary forced call to AuraUpdate |
| 01:45.43 | Repo | -upvalue some often used things |
| 01:45.55 | NivFreak | I still want a WWS refund |
| 01:45.57 | thul | the thread about muzzlestuf |
| 01:46.01 | thul | I'm laughing |
| 01:46.11 | NivFreak | and fucking lossendi told me flat out he won't pro-rate a refund for my 1 year membership |
| 01:46.29 | Shefki | NivFreak: I hear you there. |
| 01:46.46 | NivFreak | I still need to buy an anti-WWS url and just post his email |
| 01:46.48 | Shefki | But I'm not even gonna bother ask for a refund for WWS. |
| 01:47.07 | NivFreak | he's such a cock sucker |
| 01:47.22 | Toadkiller | whats WWS? |
| 01:47.29 | NivFreak | wow web stats |
| 01:47.43 | Toadkiller | u have to pay for it? |
| 01:47.57 | Toadkiller | crazy |
| 01:48.12 | NivFreak | to retain history |
| 01:48.29 | NivFreak | it was well worth the money, once upon a time |
| 01:48.36 | NivFreak | and I was an loud advocate |
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| 01:49.29 | Toadkiller | man, last episode of BSG tonite. so sad |
| 01:49.46 | NivFreak | maybe I'll try and watch that series again |
| 01:49.50 | NivFreak | I couldn't get into it last time |
| 01:50.06 | Toadkiller | u just need to get past the 2 hour pilot. everything else is exceptional |
| 01:52.15 | NivFreak | I watched the first few episodes |
| 01:52.19 | NivFreak | wasn't that engaging |
| 01:53.06 | Toadkiller | Ah doh! I can use + and - in the text button tinstead of up & down!!! I can avoid my evil ace3config fate a little longer. |
| 01:53.45 | Fisker- | Blizzard is awesome! |
| 01:54.01 | Fisker- | Though it kinda sucks you can't have donation ingame |
| 01:54.10 | Toadkiller | They sure are, I play at least one of their games 6/7 50/52 |
| 01:54.16 | Fisker- | As long it's not "OMG PLX DONATE GO GO" and just an option ingame i think it's fine |
| 01:55.09 | Toadkiller | I think its the quest helper hellow world text that pushed someone over the edge. Nobody likes hello world except as a theoretical first program for a new language |
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| 02:09.30 | JCinDE | Is it possible in pitbull4 to set values on sliders in increments of 1 rather than 5? |
| 02:10.02 | Shefki | Type in the box. |
| 02:10.57 | JCinDE | oh I see it now. thank you. it didn't look like a textbox. |
| 02:12.20 | Xinhuan | 4) Add-ons may not include advertisements. |
| 02:12.20 | Xinhuan | Add-ons may not be used to advertise any goods or services. |
| 02:12.23 | Xinhuan | hahaha |
| 02:12.32 | Xinhuan | i wonder if that includes "/2 WTS xxxxxxx" |
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| 02:24.19 | Shefki | You know my GF brought up an interesting point. |
| 02:24.26 | Shefki | What if #4 didn't mean things like Carbonite. |
| 02:24.39 | Shefki | What if they meant stopping gold sellers from selling gold or crap using an addon. |
| 02:24.54 | Shefki | You can bet they use addons to automate their spamming. |
| 02:25.13 | Fisker- | Goldsellers don't use any addons |
| 02:25.17 | Fisker- | and why the fuck would they care anyways? |
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| 02:44.13 | Repo | 10ace2: 03Rabbit * r1095 AceAddon-2.0/AceAddon-2.0.lua: |
| 02:44.16 | Repo | Remove the donation frame in accordance to Blizz' new User Interface Add-On Development Policy. |
| 02:47.40 | vhaarr | Kaelten: perhaps a automatic repackaging of all wowace addons to force update the new AceAddon-2.0 would be appropriate |
| 02:48.28 | vhaarr | so we don't subject unaware authors to bans or legal action |
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| 02:48.45 | vhaarr | ckknight_: ^ |
| 02:50.02 | Shefki | vhaarr: I think ck's stance on this is he's not removing anything. |
| 02:51.40 | Fisker- | <PROTECTED> |
| 02:51.42 | Fisker- | bawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww |
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| 03:07.19 | Repo | 10arl: 03Ackis * r1587 / (2 files in 2 directories): Test commit |
| 03:08.28 | Repo | 10arl: 03Ackis * r1588 / (2 files in 1 directory): More of the files from after work today. |
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| 03:11.00 | Repo | 10arl: 03Ackis * r1589 ARLFrame.lua: More files from today. |
| 03:11.16 | Ackis | ckknight: http://paste.wowace.com/363/ |
| 03:12.20 | Ackis | if that helps you that is |
| 03:12.53 | NeoTron | NivFreak: my wws sub expired. I didn't renew |
| 03:14.35 | Repo | 10arl: 03Ackis * r1590 ARLConfig.lua: redo work from one file i didn't send home... dur. |
| 03:20.17 | digmouse | so Carbonite is gonna die? |
| 03:20.28 | digmouse | and QuestHelper? |
| 03:23.31 | NeoTron | wow weird |
| 03:23.38 | NeoTron | so I go to the wow forums and I see posts from 2006 |
| 03:23.41 | Repo | 10arl: 03Ackis * r1591 Docs/Main.txt: |
| 03:23.44 | Repo | Add note on main page stating that ARL will not ever comply with draconian blizzard policy. |
| 03:24.04 | BWMerlin | ? |
| 03:24.33 | Shefki | cheers at Ackis |
| 03:24.35 | NeoTron | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/board.html?forumId=10001&sid=1 the first non-sticky I see there is http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=11471278&sid=1... |
| 03:25.05 | Shefki | Wow they moved Cairenn's post to a stickky. |
| 03:25.21 | *** join/#wowace ddollar (n=ddollar@unaffiliated/daved) |
| 03:25.25 | Shefki | Blues couldn't even be bothered to show their face to the forums to announce this to us themselves. |
| 03:25.36 | Shefki | Had to said Cairenn to do it for them, chicken shits. |
| 03:30.24 | BWMerlin | what am i looking at? |
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| 03:41.11 | Cairenn | Shefki: no one "sent" me to do anything, I saw it on the Blizz front page, made a post about it on WoWI and in the Blizz UI forum so that people would know /shrug |
| 03:41.55 | Kody- | He didn't mean anything malicious by it, just that Blizzard basically used you as a mouthpiece instead of doing it themselves on something they frankly should have done themselves |
| 03:41.57 | Shefki | Cairenn: Ok, I just assumed someone at Blizzard pointed you to the policy. Still I'm surprised nobody at Blizzard has posted on this issue at all yet. |
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| 03:42.25 | Shefki | I'd imagine a major policy thing like that deserved a blue post announcing it. |
| 03:42.26 | Cairenn | I know he didn't mean anything malicious about me by it, was just clarifying :) |
| 03:42.36 | Shefki | I couldn't find the post at first becuase I didn't expect you to be the one starting nit. |
| 03:42.43 | Shefki | s/nit/it/ |
| 03:42.45 | Cairenn | I posted because I wanted to make sure everyone knew |
| 03:42.49 | Cairenn | :) |
| 03:42.53 | Shefki | Cairenn: I appreciate the heads up. |
| 03:43.06 | SqueeG | hm... a 132 error |
| 03:43.27 | SqueeG | could that be from an over-heating chip/ |
| 03:45.35 | SqueeG | It's funny how people decide they need to be trolls in these policy discussion threads :p |
| 03:46.23 | SqueeG | what i find even more amusing is that these trolls imply they could quite possibly be adults |
| 03:55.58 | Arrowmaster | vhaarr: btw i think you should revert that ace2 change until blizzard actually says something about this entire issue |
| 03:56.52 | Shefki | +1 from me. |
| 03:57.50 | BWMerlin | idk what other addons ask for donations but maybe this is something the curse author rewards program could come to the aid of |
| 03:58.16 | BWMerlin | it was set up to reward authors of popular addons so it might be time to poney up a little cash and help them out |
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| 04:01.35 | Shefki | BWMerlin: I don't think the vast majority of us care about money as much as the principle of the matter. |
| 04:01.50 | Shefki | The vast majority of us that are upset aren't even impacted by the donation thing. |
| 04:02.29 | BWMerlin | I have never had a problem with QH small text ad in game but it seems that some other addons might have gone crazy with the in game ads |
| 04:03.41 | BWMerlin | i also found it interesting that blizzard will disable addons it doesnt like |
| 04:04.08 | BWMerlin | i guess this could be great if your having problems and a gm comes along and presses a magic button and disables addons |
| 04:04.12 | SqueeG | i think QH was the target of the performance portion of the announcement |
| 04:04.27 | BWMerlin | i did think that as well |
| 04:04.55 | BWMerlin | idk y ppl just dont turn it off when raiding or pvp |
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| 04:05.06 | BWMerlin | maybe the old dala log in issue |
| 04:05.07 | SqueeG | or going into dalaran :p |
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| 04:05.18 | BWMerlin | never had a problem with QH in dala |
| 04:05.20 | Shefki | Some problems are better solved by talking to the authors in a dialog. |
| 04:05.30 | Shefki | Rather than policies written by lawyers. |
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| 04:06.43 | SqueeG | hrm |
| 04:06.51 | BWMerlin | i would like to see blizzard allow small in game text ads once per login |
| 04:07.08 | SqueeG | after bugging to get the category for LDB addons added... it's a shame only one person has tagged for it yet ;p |
| 04:07.21 | BWMerlin | its not much and i get more spam from logging in and getting told that patch xx is live, report spamers and guild motd |
| 04:08.50 | *** join/#wowace Funkeh` (n=funk@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/Ace3/BigWigs/funkeh) |
| 04:08.50 | *** mode/#wowace [+o Funkeh`] by ChanServ |
| 04:09.37 | SqueeG | is there a way to filter out CoA and WAR addons from the list on CF? |
| 04:10.27 | Funkeh` | hold on, a few days ago minefield was at 3.2 and now it's 3.6? O.o |
| 04:10.56 | SqueeG | quick development? :p |
| 04:11.46 | BWMerlin | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:11.46 | BWMerlin | Saturday, 21 March 2009 1:56:30 AM (12 hours, 14 minutes ago) |
| 04:11.46 | BWMerlin | Would just like to announce that Im leaving the project. This probably means there will be no more updates unless someone else takes over. |
| 04:11.46 | BWMerlin | Reason: Arrowmaster makes working on this project really hard.. I wont detail reasons why but there you have it.. |
| 04:11.46 | BWMerlin | You have you wish Arrow. cartographer is dead again. |
| 04:11.59 | Funkeh` | Stanzilla, explain this nonsense |
| 04:12.26 | Funkeh` | BWMerlin, cart 2.4 was supposed to be dead a long time ago anyway |
| 04:12.34 | BWMerlin | i know |
| 04:12.41 | BWMerlin | i use mapster |
| 04:12.55 | BWMerlin | +gathermate +handynotes |
| 04:13.10 | Arrowmaster | blame the asshat that broke libtourist-3.0 |
| 04:13.16 | Arrowmaster | without testing anything |
| 04:13.29 | Arrowmaster | all i did was revert his change and tell him not to break my stuff |
| 04:14.35 | sacarasc | GG Arrowmaster! |
| 04:14.38 | Funkeh` | loves Arrowmaster |
| 04:14.43 | Arrowmaster | I WON! |
| 04:14.49 | Arrowmaster | I FINALLY FUCKING WON THE WAR! |
| 04:14.56 | Tinyboom | it's not about winning.... |
| 04:14.58 | Arrowmaster | dances |
| 04:15.06 | Funkeh` | life is about winning |
| 04:15.07 | Kilroo | I have to admit, I was pretty reluctant to switch away from Cart2 for a good long while. |
| 04:15.30 | Funkeh` | I have to admit, I was pretty reluctant to switch away from cart1 for a while |
| 04:15.32 | Funkeh` | so i didn't |
| 04:15.36 | Funkeh` | then mapster was made |
| 04:15.43 | Kilroo | Cart3 really isn't the same kind of mod as Cart2 was |
| 04:16.14 | SqueeG | should've had a different name :p |
| 04:16.25 | SqueeG | cartogoogle |
| 04:16.42 | SqueeG | just rolls off your tongue like chunky milk, doesn't it? |
| 04:16.56 | Kilroo | and I'm still not entirely sure how much I like Gathermate (which I keep trying to confused with Gatherer). But Mapster+HandyNotes+InstanceMaps, plus the fact that SilverDragon was updated to work with HandyNotes... |
| 04:17.01 | Kilroo | That works pretty well. |
| 04:17.02 | Ackis | Arrowmaster: as long as I'm around you'll never win the war |
| 04:17.51 | SqueeG | I like gathermate a LOT more than i liked gatherer :p |
| 04:17.55 | BWMerlin | i liked cart3 |
| 04:18.00 | SqueeG | althought apparently gatherer was rewritten |
| 04:18.05 | SqueeG | or something.. |
| 04:18.13 | Repo | 10ice-hud: 03Parnic * r357 IceCastBar.lua: |
| 04:18.16 | Repo | - added toggles to show/hide spell cast time and spell rank on player/target cast bars |
| 04:18.21 | Kilroo | Does Gathermate use Astrolabe? I'm pretty sure Gatherer does, but I seem to recall Gathermate didn't. |
| 04:18.39 | Anaralx2 | Call me weird, but I use both. |
| 04:18.43 | SqueeG | addonmaker... now THAT'S the kinda name you need as an author >.O |
| 04:19.03 | Anaralx2 | Gathermate for fish and gas clouds and Gatherer for everything else. |
| 04:19.17 | SqueeG | points at Anaralx2 and calls him weird |
| 04:19.42 | BWMerlin | gathermate has mining and herb nodes |
| 04:19.46 | Anaralx2 | whispers in Squeeg's direction, |
| 04:19.47 | Anaralx2 | She |
| 04:19.59 | SqueeG | my apologies |
| 04:20.02 | *** join/#wowace ilovemrdoe (n=chatzill@88-104-81-173.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) |
| 04:20.12 | Ackis | it? |
| 04:20.19 | Anaralx2 | BWMerlin: I know, but I don't like the over clutter of the database. |
| 04:20.20 | sacarasc | agrees with Ackis. |
| 04:20.21 | SqueeG | points at Anaralx3 and calls she... er.... her weird ;) |
| 04:20.26 | sacarasc | Everyone on the internet is an it. |
| 04:20.28 | Anaralx2 | ~lart Ackis |
| 04:20.28 | purl | decapitates Ackis conan the destroyer style |
| 04:20.35 | Ackis | lol |
| 04:20.40 | *** join/#wowace Higdur (n=nike@97-110-117-82.cust.blixtvik.se) |
| 04:20.46 | Arrowmaster | flamebait set |
| 04:20.52 | Kilroo | At one point I was reading through the Astrolabe API and I was actually getting a little confused as to how Astrolabe itself hadn't pretty much completely taken over as How To Add Notes To The Map while everything else just became a means of detecting, databasing (I'm inventing words!) and sharing locuses of instructions for Astrolabe... |
| 04:21.09 | Kilroo | I like Stormscape's quit. |
| 04:21.13 | BWMerlin | over clutter how as in you use two addons each displaying differnt node types so you can disable and enable them when you want each of the types? |
| 04:21.14 | SqueeG | Gatherer choked up my old machine a lot worse than gathermate |
| 04:21.33 | *** join/#wowace RLD_osx (n=rldempse@66-169-191-207.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com) |
| 04:21.52 | Kilroo | Reminds me of this one: Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick. |
| 04:21.53 | Anaralx2 | On my system I'm lucky that both use the same amount of resources and neither impact my fps |
| 04:21.55 | BWMerlin | all i know is gathermate uses wowdb and gatherer uses wowhead |
| 04:22.10 | Kilroo | Oh yeah. |
| 04:22.21 | Arrowmaster | well gathermate doesnt actually use astrolabe though, if it did the 50 minimap node limit would be hit way too soon |
| 04:22.46 | Shirik | ~dict databasing |
| 04:22.52 | *** join/#wowace rbarreiros (n=brandon@a81-84-28-246.cpe.netcabo.pt) |
| 04:23.04 | Kilroo | I did finally figure out that the thing that was making the little quest tip coordinates that I had in Cartographer but not with M+HN+G was WHDB. |
| 04:23.10 | SqueeG | i've heard 'databasing' used tons of times |
| 04:23.11 | Kilroo | At least I think it was. |
| 04:23.20 | Kilroo | Ok, so someone else made it up first. |
| 04:23.37 | SqueeG | iI'm actualyl surprised it's not defined O_o |
| 04:24.05 | Arrowmaster | 12:15:29a @(Kody-) http://static.curseforge.net/uploads/18/337/938/Curse_Client-3.0.0.1.0.dmg 3.0 mac version |
| 04:24.05 | Arrowmaster | 12:15:44a @(Kody-) it's a beta build but should function |
| 04:27.19 | SqueeG | apparently my guildie just lost his chants and gems when he repaired his gear from broken status |
| 04:27.48 | Kilroo | I wish I could figure out why tomquest2 >r54 doesn't work right for me. |
| 04:28.01 | SqueeG | is it throwing errors? |
| 04:28.09 | SqueeG | or just not working :p |
| 04:28.20 | Kilroo | Looks like it's gone (actually in the next release after r54) from being an acceptable replacement for nQuestLog to being an improvement over it... |
| 04:28.24 | Kilroo | No errors |
| 04:28.35 | Kilroo | also no quests in the tooltip or tracker. |
| 04:28.51 | Arrowmaster | SqueeG: tell the guildie to relog |
| 04:29.15 | Kilroo | And the options it provides in the interface are limited to enabling or disabling five modules, and two checkboxes related to tooltips. |
| 04:29.18 | Kilroo | r54 works fine. |
| 04:30.59 | SqueeG | Arrowmaster: Thank you, that did the trick. ^^ |
| 04:31.31 | Kilroo | On a mostly unrelated note, I am unreasonably irritated with 37signals. |
| 04:31.35 | SqueeG | Kilroo: I presume you've tried enabling everything? And/or trying to load just TQ2? |
| 04:32.00 | BWMerlin | does anyone know of any reason to use gatherer over gathermate or vise versa? |
| 04:32.23 | SqueeG | *shrug* I haven't used the new Gatherer |
| 04:32.40 | SqueeG | When I switched over, GatherMate had much better memory use |
| 04:33.08 | Kilroo | SqueeG: Reinstalled the addon, disabled everything but it and cargoShip, cleared out the savedvars. Only differences I was able to produce were that I did manage to get a few errors if I tried it without the libs. |
| 04:33.31 | VonhintenHOME` | when I switched over, I was still doing guild shares for nodes, rather than using GatherMates prebuilt and mostly complete database |
| 04:33.35 | SqueeG | oh wait... you run standalone? |
| 04:33.53 | Kilroo | Tried it both ways. |
| 04:34.22 | Kilroo | I prefer standalones...embedded libs irritate me. |
| 04:34.56 | SqueeG | =p I'd prefer to switch to stand alone again, but it's just entirely too much work |
| 04:35.23 | Kilroo | I do wish WUU supported disembedding. |
| 04:35.35 | BWMerlin | I found easiest way was to delete all my addons, tell cc i wanted stand alone and redownload and install them |
| 04:35.46 | SqueeG | I didn't see the option in CC |
| 04:36.06 | Kilroo | Something I read seemed to imply that it used to, so it may be that it will add support for them from Curse |
| 04:36.19 | BWMerlin | open CC |
| 04:36.22 | BWMerlin | go to mange games |
| 04:36.28 | BWMerlin | click on WoW |
| 04:36.31 | Kilroo | I assume Coral will pick up the disembedded versions as easily as it does the main ones... |
| 04:36.36 | BWMerlin | addon settings |
| 04:36.39 | SqueeG | oh shit |
| 04:36.48 | SqueeG | ha... wow... can't believe i missed that |
| 04:36.50 | BWMerlin | drop down box choose install libs seperatly |
| 04:36.55 | SqueeG | I just never figured the options would be in there |
| 04:37.06 | Kilroo | I probably ought to try the curse client again. |
| 04:37.06 | BWMerlin | might want to make all the curse profiler stuff is unchecked |
| 04:37.12 | Kilroo | It does run pretty smoothly under Wine. |
| 04:37.22 | BWMerlin | that thing is like a dam virus just keeps coming back |
| 04:37.29 | Kilroo | Norton? |
| 04:37.37 | Kilroo | Oh, right. Profiler. |
| 04:37.48 | Kilroo | Got me confused there for a moment. |
| 04:37.51 | SqueeG | nah, nipped that one in the bud |
| 04:38.02 | *** join/#wowace RLD_osx (n=rldempse@66-169-191-207.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com) |
| 04:38.22 | Kilroo | Budnipping. Heh. |
| 04:38.45 | BWMerlin | i think i set that addon to ignore/never update then removed it |
| 04:39.17 | SqueeG | i just never installed it to begin with |
| 04:39.19 | Kilroo | GASP! |
| 04:39.20 | BWMerlin | still find it bad maners that CC didnt ask my if i wanted to install it |
| 04:39.23 | Kilroo | I think beta 80 works. |
| 04:39.46 | SqueeG | It does now, BW |
| 04:39.59 | SqueeG | I just installed it the other night, on my clean install |
| 04:40.44 | BWMerlin | good |
| 04:41.31 | Kilroo | Only one problem still remains with TomQuest |
| 04:41.47 | Kilroo | I keep misreading the word "colorize" as "colonize" |
| 04:41.58 | SqueeG | O_o |
| 04:41.59 | Kilroo | And I do not want to colonize my quest objectives. |
| 04:42.54 | SqueeG | yes you do... |
| 04:43.05 | Kilroo | Well, ok, maybe some of them. |
| 04:43.23 | Kilroo | Anyhow, nQuestlog is now officially retired. |
| 04:43.46 | SqueeG | I'm hoping beql is life-supported >.> |
| 04:43.58 | SqueeG | keql throws errors >.o |
| 04:44.16 | Kilroo | Matter of fact, I think the only thing it did that TomQuest2 doesn't was it could display the number of quests you have hidden in the fubar plugin, in addition to the available/current/maximum. |
| 04:44.44 | BWMerlin | is colorize i word? |
| 04:44.48 | BWMerlin | a* |
| 04:44.54 | SqueeG | why not? |
| 04:45.02 | Kilroo | Then again, considering that "hidden" was specific to the way the nQuestLog minion worked...that kinda wouldn't make sense in an addon that didn't have it... |
| 04:45.30 | SqueeG | I'm not partial to the whole... "questlog in a tooltip" thing |
| 04:45.51 | Kilroo | Well, you can turn that off. And I never used it in nQuestLog. |
| 04:45.57 | SqueeG | I like my big ole, double columns and stuff |
| 04:46.13 | Kilroo | I used nQuestLog with UberQuest Reborn Again. |
| 04:47.54 | BWMerlin | seems colorize *shudder* is a word |
| 04:48.11 | SqueeG | why are you shuddering? :p |
| 04:48.19 | Fisker- | see you in court btw Ackis |
| 04:48.26 | Fisker- | reports ackis |
| 04:48.28 | BWMerlin | becuase its missing a U and has a Z instead of an S |
| 04:48.39 | SqueeG | aw geez |
| 04:48.42 | SqueeG | you're british? |
| 04:48.47 | Kilroo | Heh. |
| 04:48.55 | BWMerlin | Ozzy |
| 04:49.02 | SqueeG | wagh >.< |
| 04:49.15 | Kilroo | I never thought to spell it that way, because somehow verbifying a noun that way seems like such an American thing. |
| 04:49.16 | SqueeG | Figures you guys would use british spelling |
| 04:50.15 | BWMerlin | we do |
| 04:50.15 | SqueeG | ozzies and kiwis confuse me |
| 04:50.15 | BWMerlin | colourise |
| 04:50.15 | SqueeG | you're both such a mish mash of both cultures |
| 04:50.15 | SqueeG | PLUS your own distinct twists |
| 04:50.15 | BWMerlin | yeah |
| 04:50.15 | SqueeG | Great fuckign burgers in glasgow though |
| 04:50.15 | BWMerlin | you can thanks the lack of good home grown tv shows for that |
| 04:50.16 | SqueeG | they saved my weekend *tear* |
| 04:50.24 | SqueeG | lol |
| 04:50.35 | BWMerlin | there is ALOT of us influence on us |
| 04:50.36 | SqueeG | But you guys have one of the most popular soaps in the world :p |
| 04:50.49 | SqueeG | US influence is so much better :p |
| 04:50.52 | BWMerlin | neighbours and home and away |
| 04:50.56 | SqueeG | British food can be so effing bland |
| 04:51.01 | SqueeG | sooooooo much meat |
| 04:51.04 | SqueeG | I mean... I like meat |
| 04:51.06 | SqueeG | but wow |
| 04:51.10 | BWMerlin | yes because we all want to be able to ruin the world econemy |
| 04:51.16 | SqueeG | Psh |
| 04:51.30 | SqueeG | Took more than us to get that mess rolling |
| 04:52.03 | BWMerlin | greed is good |
| 04:52.14 | BWMerlin | until it fucks everything over and you have no money |
| 04:52.15 | SqueeG | Capitalism isn't greed :p |
| 04:52.37 | Kilroo | Hm |
| 04:52.42 | Kilroo | Ok, so it's not perfect. |
| 04:52.53 | SqueeG | what's not perfect kilroo? |
| 04:53.17 | Kilroo | I seem to be getting the tooltips for some quests when I mouse over other quests |
| 04:53.22 | Kilroo | but I'm still happy. |
| 04:53.29 | Kilroo | I'm also sleepy. I'mma go to bed. |
| 04:53.31 | BWMerlin | i really dont belive the free market works |
| 04:53.34 | SqueeG | night :p |
| 04:53.45 | SqueeG | Socialism doesn't work =p |
| 04:53.58 | SqueeG | Talk about greed all you want, but at elast it counteracts laziness |
| 04:54.00 | BWMerlin | so whats the next lism then |
| 04:54.05 | Kilroo | What was the quote again? |
| 04:54.12 | SqueeG | socialism breeds laziness, look at scotland and england |
| 04:54.25 | SqueeG | Totalitarianism :p |
| 04:54.33 | Kilroo | Democracy is the worst form of government possible except for all the other ones we've tried? |
| 04:54.34 | SqueeG | that tends to work pretty well for the people on top xD |
| 04:54.48 | SqueeG | haha, yea kilroo, that's a good one xD |
| 04:54.56 | Kilroo | Personally I think the idea of a petition-representation republic is a pretty good one. |
| 04:55.03 | *** join/#wowace RLD_osx (n=rldempse@66-169-191-207.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com) |
| 04:55.16 | BWMerlin | how does that work? |
| 04:56.16 | Kilroo | Instead of carving the nation up by regions to elect representatives, you join the legislative body by having a certain number of people state (on the petition) that they want you as their representative. |
| 04:57.03 | SqueeG | Eh |
| 04:57.07 | Kilroo | You represent those people. If they don't like what you do, they can withdraw from your constituency and join someone else's, and if enough people do that, you no longer have enough to qualify as a representative. |
| 04:57.12 | SqueeG | Elections would work better if they were represented properly |
| 04:57.25 | Kilroo | Get twice the required number, you have two votes in the legislative body. |
| 04:57.38 | SqueeG | WHo uses that, kil? |
| 04:57.42 | Kilroo | Nobody |
| 04:57.47 | SqueeG | xD |
| 04:58.00 | Kilroo | it was one of the suggestions for Luna Free State in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. |
| 04:58.06 | Aiiane | id think the logistics would be a bit tricky for that, Kilroo |
| 04:58.06 | *** part/#wowace Seerah (n=Ryan_L@adsl-177-35-196.mem.bellsouth.net) |
| 04:58.11 | Kilroo | They would. |
| 04:58.17 | SqueeG | Sounds like even more micromanaging that a normal republic would have |
| 04:58.28 | BWMerlin | it sounds interesting |
| 04:58.42 | Kilroo | There are lots of disadvantages. The advantage is that it nearly eliminates the unrepresented minority. |
| 04:58.47 | SqueeG | Oligarchy's would work if you removed the human factor :p |
| 04:58.51 | BWMerlin | over night you could change from no one to someone with lot so votes then back to no one |
| 04:59.03 | *** join/#wowace RLD_osx (n=rldempse@66-169-191-207.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com) |
| 04:59.28 | Kilroo | Granted, they still might not be able to get what they want into legislation, because they're still a minority |
| 04:59.39 | SqueeG | But at least they'd be heard? :p |
| 05:00.07 | Kilroo | Pretty much. |
| 05:00.40 | Kilroo | And yes, I am personally a fan of the system of oligarchical meritocracy...and it even actually works pretty well. |
| 05:00.41 | BWMerlin | we have compulsary voting |
| 05:00.42 | SqueeG | i think making it easier to remove / replace people from/to office would make for better representatives ;p |
| 05:00.44 | Kilroo | Problem is |
| 05:00.45 | *** join/#wowace RLD_osx (n=rldempse@66-169-191-207.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com) |
| 05:00.47 | SqueeG | Put teh fear in em |
| 05:01.05 | SqueeG | It only works for a little while, kilroo |
| 05:01.12 | BWMerlin | SqueeG agreed |
| 05:01.15 | Kilroo | it works pretty well for small bodies of people, not large countries, and it generally works for at most two generations. |
| 05:01.19 | SqueeG | It starts to corrupt, just like anything else |
| 05:01.48 | BWMerlin | at the end of the day its always the people who carry the burden |
| 05:01.59 | Kilroo | I came across an amusing term once |
| 05:02.04 | Kilroo | "Microcosmunism" |
| 05:02.12 | BWMerlin | all these big companys collapse and the people have to pay them |
| 05:02.14 | SqueeG | cosmunism? |
| 05:02.28 | SqueeG | they should have just been allowed to collapse |
| 05:02.46 | SqueeG | it woukld ahve sucked for a little while, but it would have been better over all |
| 05:03.33 | SqueeG | bleh |
| 05:03.36 | Kilroo | It was kind of a half-tongue-in-cheek exploration of the fact that communism works pretty well in some places for groups that are pretty much one big extended family...so have a whole lot of those, and stick them into something like a republic. |
| 05:03.37 | SqueeG | so... i want a firewire |
| 05:03.42 | SqueeG | i'm sick onf LAN transfering :p |
| 05:04.01 | Kilroo | The idea was sort of a communism within a republic instead of the American democracy within a republic |
| 05:04.17 | Kilroo | and it was kind of hard to tell it was a joke in places until I got to the end. |
| 05:04.29 | SqueeG | The problem behind communism is the lack of incentive |
| 05:04.36 | *** join/#wowace Funkeh` (n=funk@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/Ace3/BigWigs/funkeh) |
| 05:04.36 | *** mode/#wowace [+o Funkeh`] by ChanServ |
| 05:04.40 | BWMerlin | and the corruption |
| 05:04.40 | Kilroo | It works great for bees. |
| 05:05.17 | BWMerlin | well thats it then |
| 05:05.39 | BWMerlin | 90% of the population needs to change into mindless female drones |
| 05:05.44 | SqueeG | lol |
| 05:05.48 | BWMerlin | while 1% become breeding queens |
| 05:05.49 | Kilroo | I had a friend who used to say something along the lines of "Communism would work if people weren't lazy, democracy would work if people weren't stubborn." |
| 05:05.54 | SqueeG | the media's working on that though :p |
| 05:06.00 | BWMerlin | then the last 8% become males |
| 05:06.03 | SqueeG | have you seen what males are turning into these days? :p |
| 05:06.07 | Kilroo | Right, and then men just screw once and die. |
| 05:06.08 | SqueeG | skinny pants, long hair |
| 05:06.23 | Kilroo | And can't defend themselves. |
| 05:06.26 | Axodious | SqueeG ill have you know im 140 pounds and have short hair |
| 05:06.53 | Kilroo | But the women who aren't queens have a one-use lethal weapon instead of reproductive organs. |
| 05:06.59 | BWMerlin | what is 140 is a real measuring system? |
| 05:07.00 | SqueeG | I'm 180, and my hairs going crazy because I haven't had the urge to shave it off yea :p |
| 05:07.04 | SqueeG | yet* |
| 05:07.22 | Kilroo | Yes, please give your mass in stones. |
| 05:07.23 | SqueeG | hair's* |
| 05:07.24 | Axodious | been shaving witha a #3 since i was 8 |
| 05:07.33 | SqueeG | 16 pounds to a stone |
| 05:07.37 | SqueeG | or was it 14... |
| 05:07.43 | Kilroo | On earth at sea level |
| 05:08.01 | Axodious | 10 stone |
| 05:08.10 | Axodious | 63 kilos |
| 05:08.12 | *** join/#wowace durcyn (n=durcyn@70.114.145.93) |
| 05:08.16 | Kilroo | stone is a measure of mass, like grams; pounds are a measure of weight. |
| 05:08.16 | SqueeG | Axo, are you part of the generation that started graduating in 2005? ;p |
| 05:08.23 | BWMerlin | holy crap pounds make my sound fatter |
| 05:08.35 | Kilroo | ...Is there a Metric measure of weight? |
| 05:08.43 | SqueeG | grams? |
| 05:08.49 | Kilroo | That's mass. |
| 05:08.50 | Arrowmaster | thats mass |
| 05:08.55 | Axodious | i believe so SqueeG |
| 05:08.58 | Kilroo | Newtons? |
| 05:09.04 | SqueeG | ... |
| 05:09.13 | BWMerlin | kilograms and grams for weight |
| 05:09.29 | SqueeG | the brits invented "stones" because they were too lazy to change the name of their currency so people wouldn't get mixed up |
| 05:09.36 | ilovemrdoe | weight is measured in newtons |
| 05:09.42 | Kilroo | Thought so. |
| 05:09.54 | BWMerlin | ilovemrdoe is correct |
| 05:10.05 | BWMerlin | got 2 remember year 10 physics |
| 05:10.13 | ilovemrdoe | idd :P |
| 05:10.18 | Axodious | 622 newtons, ilovemrdoe |
| 05:10.26 | BWMerlin | "weight" is the mass of an object + gravity |
| 05:11.17 | *** join/#wowace RLD_osx (n=rldempse@66-169-191-207.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com) |
| 05:11.25 | SqueeG | Anyhoo.. the hip and trendy types have been working toward androgeny (sp?) for the past 3 years, dammit |
| 05:11.27 | Kilroo | Pounds are actually a measure of force, correct? |
| 05:11.29 | SqueeG | and it's pissing me off :p |
| 05:12.09 | Kilroo | Look on the bright side |
| 05:12.12 | Arrowmaster | ive seen it used as a measure of force |
| 05:12.17 | Kilroo | it isn't pissing on you. |
| 05:12.21 | BWMerlin | same |
| 05:12.26 | SqueeG | kinky |
| 05:12.29 | Kilroo | I really am going to bed now. |
| 05:12.39 | SqueeG | night ^^ |
| 05:13.59 | BWMerlin | would that make pounds a measurement of the kenetic energy of an objec then? |
| 05:14.15 | Axodious | anyway SqueeG i dont choose to be the way i am |
| 05:14.18 | Axodious | always have been skinny |
| 05:14.19 | Axodious | :p |
| 05:14.27 | SqueeG | Nothing wrong with being skinny |
| 05:14.31 | SqueeG | I'm normally only 160 |
| 05:14.46 | SqueeG | I got fat this winter, it's the down side to working a physical job and beign off in the winter :p |
| 05:14.51 | SqueeG | being* |
| 05:15.03 | Arrowmaster | umm lets see the particually application i was thinking of... yeah im perty sure its used as a measurement of the kenetic energy of an object for that one |
| 05:15.06 | Axodious | i find it sucks being underweight tbh |
| 05:15.11 | Axodious | moreso than over |
| 05:15.15 | SqueeG | being skinny has nothing to do with having long hair, listening to bitchy music and wearing girl jeans |
| 05:16.14 | SqueeG | I just want to get rid of the bit of belly that'ls poking my pants button =p |
| 05:16.32 | BWMerlin | that sucker is hard to get rid of |
| 05:16.50 | SqueeG | Most definitely >.< |
| 05:17.10 | BWMerlin | i can see my ab outlines and yet still have a little gut |
| 05:17.15 | Axodious | it's damn annoying |
| 05:17.17 | Axodious | sitting there like |
| 05:17.18 | Axodious | skinny |
| 05:17.20 | Axodious | with a paunch |
| 05:17.45 | Megalon | but it was so much work to get it this big! |
| 05:18.01 | *** join/#wowace Renew (n=mronlin@adsl017.cnetco.com) |
| 05:18.25 | BWMerlin | i never want 2 get as big as i was again |
| 05:18.26 | SqueeG | lmao |
| 05:18.27 | BWMerlin | so fat |
| 05:18.54 | SqueeG | Stupid paunch .... *pokes it* |
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| 05:19.08 | BWMerlin | lol |
| 05:19.12 | SqueeG | And women have mixed feeling about such things |
| 05:19.16 | *** join/#wowace Cheads (i=chead@0x573bcde2.henqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk) |
| 05:19.19 | SqueeG | my fiance pokes fun at it |
| 05:19.26 | SqueeG | but also enjoys laying on it :p |
| 05:19.40 | SqueeG | it's squishier than the rest of my boney ass =p |
| 05:21.06 | SqueeG | ...i can't believe after all this time I've never picked up a pc to pc cable |
| 05:23.14 | Axodious | one of those usb to usb? |
| 05:24.07 | *** part/#wowace Renew (n=mronlin@adsl017.cnetco.com) |
| 05:27.29 | SqueeG | ooooooh, that's new to me :p |
| 05:27.34 | SqueeG | i was still thinking firewire |
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| 05:30.09 | BWMerlin | just get a cat5/6 cable and plug it into the two computers |
| 05:30.53 | BWMerlin | and if you have auto sensing/switching nic's you dont even have to worry about straight throw vs x over |
| 05:32.41 | SqueeG | that never even dawned on me |
| 05:34.51 | BWMerlin | well now you have multiple ways to solve your problem |
| 05:35.43 | SqueeG | good looks, good sir |
| 05:39.56 | Axodious | if you're on a regular network (router or w/e) then you just share the drive on both computers |
| 05:40.03 | Axodious | and go to \\computername |
| 05:40.03 | Axodious | ;o |
| 05:40.18 | SqueeG | yea, but it's slow |
| 05:40.24 | SqueeG | that's how i'm doing it now |
| 05:40.26 | Axodious | shouldn't be |
| 05:40.46 | SqueeG | slow is .... a relative term ;p |
| 05:41.10 | SqueeG | an hour and a half for a few hundred megs is just annoying me because i know it can be done faster |
| 05:43.15 | Axodious | k now i know theres something wrong |
| 05:43.15 | Axodious | lol |
| 05:43.25 | Axodious | what kind of network on you on? |
| 05:43.28 | Axodious | 10 meg or smomething |
| 05:43.51 | SqueeG | fuck knows, it's a netgear router :p |
| 05:44.00 | Axodious | it ransfer a 13 gig movie in ~5 minutes |
| 05:44.06 | SqueeG | it's not my house, i'm just crashing here until i can move into my new apt |
| 05:44.23 | SqueeG | I've never had very good speeds on home LANs |
| 05:44.43 | Axodious | it's all about setting it up correctly |
| 06:00.38 | *** join/#wowace Torhal (n=callahan@74-130-66-145.dhcp.insightbb.com) |
| 06:01.19 | BWMerlin | i have always found winshare to be painfully slow |
| 06:01.42 | BWMerlin | set up an ftp and just ftp what you need across |
| 06:16.04 | Codayus | I tend to find ftp slower than smb... |
| 06:16.36 | selckin | they both will max out at your network unless you screw up the configuration |
| 06:17.34 | Codayus | So the theory runs, I know. :-) |
| 06:18.27 | selckin | ftp is terrible protocol and should be banished tho |
| 06:18.38 | Codayus | Assuming, of course, your network is the relevant bottleneck. That's often not the case if you have, say, gigabit. |
| 06:19.16 | selckin | still saying ftp is slower then smb is silly |
| 06:20.11 | Fisker- | what the shit Kaelten |
| 06:20.19 | Fisker- | you there? |
| 06:27.40 | BWMerlin | i say smb is slowest of them all |
| 06:27.43 | BWMerlin | idk y |
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| 06:50.15 | *** join/#wowace stolenlegacy (n=stolenle@86.32.24.30) |
| 06:50.29 | stolenlegacy | @project ItemRack |
| 06:50.30 | Repo | stolenlegacy: http://war.curseforge.com/projects/itemrack/. ItemRack. Game: WAR. Realwild (Manager/Author). Updated: 91 days ago. Tickets: 3/5 |
| 06:58.16 | digmouse | ItemRack is on WoWI |
| 06:58.19 | digmouse | not curse |
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| 07:09.42 | digmouse | ace is down? |
| 07:12.54 | Aiiane | seems up to me |
| 07:13.00 | Aiiane | might have burped for a second |
| 07:13.09 | *** join/#wowace Aeyan (n=pancake@cpe-071-076-230-073.triad.res.rr.com) |
| 07:14.38 | Repo | 10atlasloot-enhanced: 03Daviesh * r1922 DefaultFrame/DewDropDown.lua: Typo fixed |
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| 08:38.29 | Neebler | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_vtM6qANiI |
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| 08:55.12 | Repo | 10magic-marker: 03dhedbor * r146 MagicMarker.lua: - Fixed some weird behavior related to syncing (hopefully). |
| 08:55.15 | Repo | - Added special hack for Thaddius to unmark Stalagg and Feugen - they don't die (untested). |
| 08:55.19 | Repo | - Fixed some cases where FuBar_MagicMarker display wasn't updated correctly. |
| 08:55.40 | nevcairiel | ~logs |
| 08:55.41 | purl | All conversations are logged to http://ibot.rikers.org/channel, where "channel" is replaced by the URL-encoded channel name, such as %23freenode for #freenode. Lines starting with spaces are not logged. |
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| 09:00.58 | jnwhiteh | NivFreak: LightHeaded doesn't cause a drop in FPS, so no. |
| 09:02.52 | Repo | 10inline-aura: 03Adirelle * r40 / (2 files in 1 directory): Locale updates. |
| 09:05.46 | *** join/#wowace _Berti (n=berti@vs156121.vserver.de) |
| 09:09.39 | *** join/#wowace stolenlegacy (n=stolenle@d86-32-24-30.cust.tele2.at) |
| 09:10.31 | stolenlegacy | Question: is there a macro modifier that works with death knight presences? GetShapeshiftForm() returns the corresponding numbers, but [stance] doesn't seem to work |
| 09:13.10 | Xinhuan | Tekkub, in teknicolor, where you have a hook to recolor the player names of people logging off... |
| 09:13.35 | Repo | 10dynperf: 03Adirelle * r5 / (4 files in 2 directories): Added localization. |
| 09:13.51 | Xinhuan | you totally replaced other prefix-hooks that might have run before yours (like timestamps) |
| 09:14.15 | *** join/#wowace MoonWolf (n=MoonWolf@dhcp-077-250-125-249.chello.nl) |
| 09:14.15 | *** mode/#wowace [+o MoonWolf] by ChanServ |
| 09:14.25 | *** join/#wowace Hronos (n=Hronos@195.78.246.3) |
| 09:16.09 | Repo | 10dynperf: 03Adirelle 04v1.0-beta-1 * r6 : Tagging as v1.0-beta-1 |
| 09:16.21 | Xinhuan | think you can "fix" that without having to edit the toc of teknicolor to optdep timestamping addons? |
| 09:17.06 | *** join/#wowace Kalroth (n=kalroth@2506ds1-hj.0.fullrate.dk) |
| 09:17.17 | nevcairiel | stolenlegacy: no, DK presences do not work with macros at all |
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| 09:22.00 | Groktar | did they get rid of brown eyed human females? |
| 09:22.11 | Groktar | i'm having trouble making one :/ |
| 09:22.26 | Torhal | Groktar: I think Fisker- abducted them all. |
| 09:22.44 | Groktar | oh |
| 09:23.02 | Groktar | it looks like it randomly picks eye color when you select human female |
| 09:23.15 | Groktar | so if you get blue you just need to click a couple times |
| 09:23.59 | Grum | 5) Add-ons may not solicit donations. <-- ckknight has to fix all of his addons!!! O.o |
| 09:25.47 | Torhal | Grum: He already said he isn't going to. |
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| 09:26.34 | *** join/#wowace EthanCentaurai (n=ethan@78.146.20.166) |
| 09:26.51 | Groktar | nm |
| 09:32.24 | sb|work | hm, dynperf really works? :o |
| 09:32.58 | sb|work | isnt it like ~2s freeze when changing graphic settings? |
| 09:33.01 | sb|work | @project dynperf |
| 09:33.02 | Repo | sb|work: http://www.wowace.com/projects/dynperf/. DynPerf. Game: WoW. Adirelle (Manager/Author). Updated: 15 minutes ago |
| 09:35.20 | nevcairiel | depends which settings you change |
| 09:41.34 | *** join/#wowace RLD_osx (n=rldempse@66-169-191-207.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com) |
| 09:56.41 | Kalroth | oh sweet, I didn't notice the new addon policy |
| 09:57.03 | *** join/#wowace RLD_osx (n=rldempse@66-169-191-207.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com) |
| 09:57.13 | Kalroth | "The programming code of an add-on must in no way be hidden or obfuscated" |
| 09:57.33 | Kalroth | Does poor programming count as obfuscated? If so, then we need to remove all of nevcairiel's addons! |
| 09:57.42 | Kalroth | hides. |
| 09:58.00 | Shefki | Keep reading. |
| 09:58.07 | Shefki | That's not even the most ridiculous part of that section. |
| 09:58.27 | Shefki | "and must be freely accessible to and viewable by the general public." |
| 09:58.39 | Kalroth | haha |
| 09:58.45 | *** join/#wowace RLD_osx (n=rldempse@66-169-191-207.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com) |
| 09:58.56 | Shefki | If you don't post your addons publically they violate that. |
| 09:59.05 | Shefki | Ever write an addon just for yourself, or your guild? |
| 09:59.23 | *** join/#wowace mitchnull (n=mitchnul@catv3EC947C2.pool.t-online.hu) |
| 09:59.27 | Shefki | Combine that with "Add-ons must be free of charge" and they're basically saying. |
| 09:59.29 | nevcairiel | You can always interpret it in funny ways |
| 09:59.30 | syeren | Do these rules piss developers off, Shefki? |
| 09:59.34 | syeren | Seem a bit dumb to me :p |
| 09:59.38 | Kalroth | Sure, it doesn't mention I have to distribute it |
| 10:00.01 | nevcairiel | I would rather think about it that the general public can view the source when they have the addon |
| 10:00.04 | Shefki | nevcairiel: What's funny about that... How else would you interpret "freely accessible to and viewable by the general public." |
| 10:00.05 | nevcairiel | as in, clear and plain text |
| 10:00.12 | Kalroth | It's legalize talk for "make addons, make people use them, but don't make money" |
| 10:00.19 | Shefki | It doesn't say that though. |
| 10:00.26 | nevcairiel | It doesnt say yours either |
| 10:00.40 | Kalroth | Shefki: Ever read the laws of your country? :) |
| 10:00.47 | Shefki | Kalroth: Yes actually. |
| 10:01.02 | Shefki | I read all sorts of legal stuff. |
| 10:01.13 | *** join/#wowace rbarreiros (n=brandon@a81-84-28-246.cpe.netcabo.pt) |
| 10:01.14 | nevcairiel | That makes you a lawyer now? :) |
| 10:01.25 | Kalroth | There's a reason there's 430953845345 lawyers out there; because no matter how hard they try, they can't cover every good/bad thing people can come up with. So they generalize. |
| 10:01.31 | Shefki | You should read anything that restricts you from doing soomething as being as broad as possible and anything that allows you to do something as narrowly as possible. |
| 10:02.36 | Kalroth | I don't agree with all the policy rules, but I like the "keep money out of this" stuff. |
| 10:02.45 | Shefki | Why does it matter? |
| 10:02.57 | Shefki | Who cares if some authors want to sell their addon? |
| 10:03.09 | nevcairiel | Blizzard does :) |
| 10:03.47 | Shefki | It's not their place to care. |
| 10:03.52 | Kalroth | hahah |
| 10:03.56 | nevcairiel | Sure it is |
| 10:03.59 | *** join/#wowace Nargiddley (n=nargiddl@125-239-1-127.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) |
| 10:04.28 | Shefki | Then I demand that they give me their game for free. |
| 10:04.35 | Shefki | It's equally as ridiculous. |
| 10:04.51 | Kalroth | Blizzard wants to control the money flow in their game, it doesn't matter if you're selling accounts or addons. |
| 10:04.52 | nevcairiel | You're obviously not a person i want to discuss with, so i'll just leave =P |
| 10:05.39 | Shefki | nevcairiel: I didn't say I was a laywer anyway... He asked me if I'd ever read laws. |
| 10:05.55 | Shefki | And their policy isn't even a legal document. |
| 10:06.06 | Shefki | It's just a stupid policy that's obviously horribly written and poorly thought out. |
| 10:06.14 | nevcairiel | Its their game, they explicitly allow 3rd party addons, so its absolutely their place to limit what they allow |
| 10:06.34 | Shefki | nevcairiel: I've got no problem with them blocking addons they don't like. |
| 10:06.43 | Shefki | It's none of their business how addons are distributed to users. |
| 10:06.52 | nevcairiel | So they don't like addons that require users to buy them |
| 10:06.54 | Shefki | If they hate Carbonite, then ban it. |
| 10:06.58 | nevcairiel | now thats a problem for you again? |
| 10:07.18 | Kalroth | How do you suggest they ban a single addon? :) |
| 10:07.28 | Kalroth | Besides, it's not just Carbonite |
| 10:07.39 | Kalroth | "charge money to download an add-on, charge for services related to the add-on, or otherwise require some form of monetary compensation to download or access an add-on." |
| 10:07.42 | Shefki | Kalroth: They already have a filtering system in place for addons. |
| 10:07.48 | Codayus | It'd be trivial to ban a single addon. They've done it before, they'll do it again... |
| 10:07.53 | nevcairiel | Banning single addons is like whack-a-mole, they just popup under another name or something |
| 10:07.53 | Shefki | They can disable any addon they want with the silly baddons file in the client. |
| 10:08.07 | Kalroth | Codayus: It'd be equally trivial for the addon to bypass that. |
| 10:08.17 | *** join/#wowace RLD_osx (n=rldempse@66-169-191-207.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com) |
| 10:08.19 | nevcairiel | Providing a rule that disallows them in general will take them off the public addon pages |
| 10:08.23 | Shefki | Then what's the point of the policy if they can't enforce it? |
| 10:08.27 | nevcairiel | and seriously limit their distribuion |
| 10:08.40 | Shefki | It's also causing a lot of us to say screw them and their game. |
| 10:08.40 | Codayus | Kalroth: Nothing could be less relevant. See also: Cross faction communication addons. |
| 10:08.53 | Xinhuan | its 2 different things - Blizz has rights to enforce what addons can run in wow.exe - but blizz has no rights to take away intellectual property rights of addon authors |
| 10:08.56 | nevcairiel | Shefki: only people that violate the rules in general :P |
| 10:08.57 | Kalroth | Shefki: They don't need to enforce it. They just need some rules for when going after certain addons or addon communities. |
| 10:09.02 | nevcairiel | I have absolutely no problem with the rules |
| 10:09.07 | Kalroth | Codayus: Hum? |
| 10:09.09 | nevcairiel | why would i? I don't break any of them |
| 10:09.13 | nevcairiel | never have, never will |
| 10:09.17 | Shefki | Going after how? |
| 10:09.19 | Shefki | It's a policy. |
| 10:09.20 | *** join/#wowace Venara|afk (n=venara@p5B3F64E0.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 10:09.22 | Shefki | It means nothing. |
| 10:09.29 | Kalroth | nevcairiel: Hey, I bought Bartender4 from nevcairiel.com ! |
| 10:09.46 | Shefki | What are they going to do if someone sells an addon, the only thing they can do is ban addons. |
| 10:09.57 | Kalroth | Shefki: It means that Blizzard can say "I told you so" when shutting an addon down. |
| 10:10.01 | Shefki | They can't even necessarily tie an addon to the person's player account that made it. |
| 10:10.22 | digmouse | legal actions I think |
| 10:10.34 | Shefki | Legal how? That's not even part of the terms of use. |
| 10:10.43 | digmouse | who knows |
| 10:10.46 | Shefki | The policy isn't referenced by any of the actual legal documents. |
| 10:10.46 | nevcairiel | An official statement that an addon is "illegal" will already do enough work for them |
| 10:10.52 | nevcairiel | users will be extra careful to not use it. |
| 10:10.53 | Kalroth | "These guidelines have been put in place to ensure the integrity of World of Warcraft and to help promote an enjoyable gaming environment for all of our players - failure to abide by them may result in measures up to and including taking formal legal action." |
| 10:11.03 | Kalroth | -> including taking formal legal action <- |
| 10:11.09 | Codayus | By the time any legal action actually ensued, we can assume the TOU and other documents will reference their addon policy. |
| 10:11.11 | digmouse | like "You cant make money from what is based on my creation!" |
| 10:11.12 | Shefki | Based on WHAT? |
| 10:11.18 | Codayus | No need to argue about that, IMHO. |
| 10:11.24 | nevcairiel | Shefki: its the US, they can do wtf they want in court |
| 10:11.32 | Shefki | nevcairiel: No they can't. |
| 10:12.16 | Kalroth | Shefki: Based on the policy? :) |
| 10:12.25 | nevcairiel | They'll probably just include something in the ToS or ToU where addons are currently allowed in anyway |
| 10:12.43 | digmouse | Blizz make money from WoW, Carbonite make money from what is based on and rely to WoW and dont contribute to Blizz, Blizz isnt happy |
| 10:12.54 | digmouse | like this? |
| 10:13.04 | Shefki | Anyway you're missing the forest from the trees. They can block addons as they see fit but again as Xinhuan pointed out they have no right to dictate the distribution. |
| 10:13.22 | digmouse | but I dont quite understand things about donations |
| 10:13.37 | digmouse | what the heck does that thing matter? |
| 10:13.38 | Kalroth | Donations are fine, just don't spam it ingame? |
| 10:13.45 | Shefki | That's not what it says. |
| 10:13.51 | digmouse | no donations spam |
| 10:14.01 | Kalroth | " .. should not appear in the game." |
| 10:14.02 | Shefki | "such requests should be limited to the add-on website or distribution site and should not appear in the game. " |
| 10:14.19 | digmouse | QH just only pops up upon login, ace mods only appear in the about panel |
| 10:14.41 | digmouse | That IS blizz dont wanna ppl earn money from mods, at any means |
| 10:14.51 | Kalroth | Yes, that's what I said earlier |
| 10:14.59 | Shefki | digmouse: If that's the case why do they say it's ok to put donations on the website at all? |
| 10:15.05 | Kalroth | Blizzard wants to control the money flow regarding their game, in every aspect. |
| 10:15.30 | Codayus | It's a valid point, really. Bliz saying "no addons may be used with this game UNLESS they are distributed under license X" is fine. Saying "you can't distribute addons under license Y" is not. Kind of a moot point though... |
| 10:15.32 | Shefki | Kalroth: And they should. But addons aren't theirs to control the distribution. |
| 10:15.55 | digmouse | Shefki: referring "in the game", blizz think that is what they should completly control, while on the site is not |
| 10:16.02 | Codayus | (That is, I think they can ban Carbonite from being used. They can't/shouldn't ban Carbonite from being written...) |
| 10:16.04 | Kalroth | Shefki: It still falls back on them, since the addon you paid for can only be used in their game. |
| 10:16.12 | Shefki | digmouse: Then what makes them think they can say you can't sell your addon at all? |
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| 10:16.20 | Shefki | It's not like the purchase is occuring in the game. |
| 10:16.23 | digmouse | Codayus: how can they ban it from using? |
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| 10:17.03 | Shefki | Kalroth: If the only diagreement with an addon is that someone paid for it I think they're full of crap if they think they can ban it. |
| 10:17.21 | Kalroth | You may think so, but they obviously don't. :) |
| 10:17.33 | Shefki | Of course they think they can do whatever they want. |
| 10:17.40 | Codayus | Same way they ban anything else. It their game, their rules. They could theoretically ban you from running it in WINE on Linux, or any other arbitrary rules. But banning someone using lua and the wow API to make an addon - even if never distributed or used? |
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| 10:17.46 | Shefki | Doesn't mean they are right either. |
| 10:17.47 | Codayus | That's dodgy. |
| 10:18.01 | digmouse | Shefki: In my opinion, mods works on the platform of wow and uses things like API and lib provided, it's OK ppl should obey some rule or licenes, it's ToU, it's blizzard |
| 10:18.07 | Shefki | Codayus: They did ban some people for that and then undid it when they realized it was stupid. |
| 10:18.25 | Shefki | digmouse: The API doesn't give them any ownership of the addon. |
| 10:18.28 | Groktar | curls up in Shefki's lap and goes to sleep |
| 10:18.32 | Groktar | purrs softly |
| 10:18.41 | Codayus | Shefki: Yeah, I know. But the key thing is - there isn't a single thing the banned people could have done, legally, had Bliz not changed that decision. |
| 10:19.15 | Shefki | Codayus: Smear the crap out of Blizzard like they did until it got press and Blizzard caved. |
| 10:19.31 | Codayus | Shefki: Like I said. :-) |
| 10:19.37 | Shefki | Do like the guy who had the leveling guy did that Blizzard tried to stop from selling it, sue them. |
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| 10:19.57 | Codayus | Actually, that's an interesting point. How did that turn out? |
| 10:20.18 | Shefki | They backed off. |
| 10:20.26 | Shefki | He's selling his guide. |
| 10:20.32 | Shefki | Heck he's writing an addon of the guide to sell. |
| 10:20.38 | Shefki | So I'm willing to bet he'll fight them on this too. |
| 10:21.20 | digmouse | Blizzard wanna control, Blizzard wanna money all go into them. |
| 10:21.23 | Shefki | I think this is more paranoia from their legal department realizing that addons can display ads and that they sold the ingame advertising rights to Massive. |
| 10:21.39 | Codayus | *nod* |
| 10:21.58 | digmouse | And I think Carbonite is another but maybe a lesser one |
| 10:22.01 | Shefki | But it's their problem that they sold rights they don't entirely have the ability to control. |
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| 10:22.12 | Shefki | digmouse: Carbonite brought the issue to their attention. |
| 10:22.30 | digmouse | Shefki: yes |
| 10:22.49 | Shefki | Someone in corporate went "Hey wait a minute how is this Carbonite thing selling adverts when we sold the rights to do that to Massive" |
| 10:22.57 | Codayus | I have a feeling this is coming straight from legal, and actually has zero to do with revenue streams. Nobody is stupid enough to think Carbonite is stealing money from Bliz. :-) |
| 10:23.15 | Shefki | Codayus: Well I think some of it is legit. |
| 10:23.23 | Shefki | The stuff about not negatively impacting the realms. |
| 10:23.32 | Codayus | Yeah, very much so. |
| 10:23.36 | digmouse | Codayus: but actually Carbonite makes money upon wow |
| 10:23.40 | Kalroth | Or they're just seeding the grounds for their own addon distribution system? :) |
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| 10:23.53 | Codayus | But the donation clause is highly objectionable, and to a lesser extent so is the "must be freely downloadable" clause. |
| 10:24.01 | Shefki | digmouse: So what, tire companies make money off car companies. |
| 10:24.09 | Shefki | digmouse: Oil change places make money off car companies. |
| 10:24.12 | Shefki | You don't see them whining. |
| 10:24.19 | Codayus | As a corrolary, I suspect there's no current plans to enforce this in a way that would piss off developers. But...bad legal language is BAD. |
| 10:24.33 | Shefki | Codayus: Too late, some of us are pissed off. |
| 10:24.42 | Codayus | Shefki: I didn't say otherwise. |
| 10:25.05 | Shefki | Frankly I suspect they said "Hey most addons don't violate this, they won't care." |
| 10:25.27 | Codayus | My point is that people should be pissed off by things like this, even if - in my view - there's no real likelyhood of Bliz actually going after people for putting a "this addon exists on donations" line in a help screen. |
| 10:25.58 | Codayus | No likelyhood currently, I should say. No telling what the future will hold. |
| 10:25.59 | Shefki | Codayus: *nod* we should be pissed off but most people are inclined to believe that it can't happen to me. |
| 10:26.03 | digmouse | I do believe blizz will make some changes on the donations part |
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| 10:26.30 | digmouse | That's what I mainly dont understand |
| 10:26.55 | Shefki | digmouse: That's definately the biggest objection. |
| 10:27.08 | Shefki | I think almost the entire thing is flawed. |
| 10:27.19 | digmouse | I hate this whole thing |
| 10:27.31 | Codayus | The donation clause is terrible. The rest is...mostly okay. I'm fine with the obfuscation clause, for example. |
| 10:27.47 | Shefki | I don't even see the point of the obfuscation clause. |
| 10:28.02 | Shefki | People that are doing it will probably just keep doing it. |
| 10:28.25 | digmouse | Who is doing obfuscation? |
| 10:28.39 | Shefki | Carbonite, Bejeweled. |
| 10:28.43 | Xinhuan | mainly just carbonite and bewejeweled |
| 10:28.44 | Shefki | That's pretty much it. |
| 10:28.46 | Codayus | digmouse: Carbonite mostly, these days. It's been done elsewhere. |
| 10:28.55 | nevcairiel | Mods could have "bad" behaviour, like a kill-switch that removes all actions from the action bars in PvP |
| 10:29.02 | Xinhuan | there's a 3rd one... horde-only av join thingy |
| 10:29.03 | nevcairiel | and you wouldn't even see it in obfuscated addons |
| 10:29.10 | Codayus | There HAVE been problems in the past with addons having unintended behaviour. |
| 10:29.17 | digmouse | actually, that thing happens a lot in China |
| 10:29.22 | Kalroth | The Thottbot addon, nevcairiel :) |
| 10:29.28 | Kalroth | er, Codayus* |
| 10:29.36 | Codayus | So...meh, why NOT say "no obfuscation"? |
| 10:29.46 | digmouse | Bigfoot, one of the mostly used addon package among CWoW players, did a lot of obfuscations |
| 10:29.48 | Shefki | I just don't see what real benefit it has. |
| 10:29.51 | Kalroth | Codayus: They do? |
| 10:29.59 | Shefki | It's not even necessarily easy to see that there is obfuscation. |
| 10:30.00 | Kalroth | Codayus: "an add-on must in no way be hidden or obfuscated" |
| 10:30.14 | sb|work | nevcairiel: are you going to write some ace3 quartz? *hides* |
| 10:30.17 | digmouse | Kalroth: Carbonite is paid, so that is NEEDED |
| 10:30.18 | Codayus | Kalroth: Right. It's a good clause, or certainly not a bad one, because hey, why not? |
| 10:30.20 | Shefki | So if someone wants to do soomething malicious they're still going to do it. |
| 10:30.28 | nevcairiel | sb|work: yes |
| 10:30.30 | sb|work | oh? :) |
| 10:30.33 | Kalroth | digmouse: Why is it needed? |
| 10:30.49 | Shefki | Codayus: If they'd stopped before the whole general public bit it would be fine. |
| 10:30.59 | digmouse | Kalroth: if everyone can see the code of a paid addon, who's gonna by it? |
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| 10:31.08 | digmouse | s/by/buy/ |
| 10:31.29 | Kalroth | digmouse: So you're paying only because you can't see the code? |
| 10:31.29 | Codayus | Apart from the obviously terrible donation clause, the only other big issue is the "free of charge clause", which is terribly overbroad. |
| 10:31.30 | nevcairiel | I still think you interpret that a bit too harsh Shefki, imho it just stresses the point that the code should be plain text and viewable without any expertise |
| 10:31.54 | digmouse | Kalroth: there is cracked versions actually :P |
| 10:32.01 | Kalroth | digmouse: Well obviously :) |
| 10:32.06 | Shefki | nevcairiel: There's a certain amount of expertiese needed to read theh code. |
| 10:32.11 | digmouse | but not everyone can crack it |
| 10:32.11 | do3mca | it isnt too difficutl either way. |
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| 10:32.15 | nevcairiel | Shefki: understand, yes, read, no |
| 10:32.43 | Shefki | nevcairiel: I just find the last part unnecessary to achieve what you think they're trying to achieve. |
| 10:32.56 | Codayus | "freely accessible to and viewable by the general public." That's fairly clear... |
| 10:33.19 | Shefki | And how can you "hide" an addon? |
| 10:33.20 | nevcairiel | I just don't think it means they force you to publicly release every addon =P |
| 10:33.23 | Shefki | WTH does that mean anyway? |
| 10:33.51 | nevcairiel | I have my NevMod that contains my own chat mod and some other stuff like moving some UI elements |
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| 10:34.17 | sb|work | aha! so go, release it! |
| 10:34.19 | sb|work | :) |
| 10:34.40 | Shefki | nevcairiel: I don't doubt that they didn't mean it that way, but I think the section is horribly worded. |
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| 10:35.04 | Codayus | Hmmmm, you know, I think Bliz really should have modeled the language on a software license. |
| 10:35.42 | Shefki | nevcairiel: But given that they've engaged in zero conversation with the community to clarify, I don't see how I can view it any way other than the most restrictive possible way. |
| 10:35.45 | digmouse | that policy is kinda offensive I think |
| 10:35.47 | Codayus | Something like the standard GPL-style "if you distribute this, you must provide source code" very slightly modified, would solve most of these issues. |
| 10:36.14 | Shefki | Codayus: Well they have nothing to license but I think you just mean in language style not an actual license. |
| 10:36.20 | Codayus | And then they can dispense with the obfuscation and free of charge clauses entirely. |
| 10:36.30 | Codayus | Shefki: Isn't that what I said? :-) |
| 10:36.35 | Shefki | Codayus: I guess. |
| 10:36.55 | Shefki | Codayus: Just trying to be clear that using their API can never require a license. |
| 10:37.14 | Codayus | Because actually, I think the obfuscation clause, interpreted literally DOES mean that all addons MUST be released, even if only used personally or by a guild. |
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| 10:37.38 | Shefki | Honestly, I think their obfuscation clause is so they can police compliance. |
| 10:37.49 | Shefki | If people start passing around addons privately, there's no way they're going to do that. |
| 10:38.16 | Codayus | I'd lean towards "this is a grab bag of random thoughts, and the whole carbonite obfuscation thing is a bit dodgy, so what the hell, let's have a clause about that too" |
| 10:38.54 | do3mca | isnt carbonite open source? ^^ |
| 10:39.00 | Shefki | do3mca: No |
| 10:39.01 | jnwhiteh | obfuscation causes issues |
| 10:39.08 | jnwhiteh | i have users report problems that I cannot even begin to solve |
| 10:39.16 | Codayus | My feeling is that there's a WHOLE lot more "legal department with no clue about addons let loose without supervision" than actual malice. |
| 10:39.21 | jnwhiteh | because the callstack is completedly unreadable. |
| 10:39.21 | Shefki | jnwhiteh: I'm not arguing it's desireable. |
| 10:39.23 | do3mca | what? |
| 10:40.01 | Shefki | jnwhiteh: I just don't see the point in disallowing it... The people inclined to do it are going to do it anyway. |
| 10:40.13 | jnwhiteh | and blizzard will contact them |
| 10:40.16 | jnwhiteh | and take action if necessary |
| 10:40.17 | jnwhiteh | *shrug* |
| 10:40.29 | jnwhiteh | not to mention the users and other developers now have a policy to point towards |
| 10:40.34 | jnwhiteh | the users alone will help police the system |
| 10:40.46 | nevcairiel | Also finally gives me a rule to delete them from curse with without curse having a anti-obfuscation policy |
| 10:41.03 | Shefki | nevcairiel: That's a curse problem not a Blizzard problem. |
| 10:41.25 | Codayus | Hmm, last post on the wowace forum on the relevant thread brings up a good point - I'm pretty sure, as written, the Bliz addon policy isn't compatible with the GPL, which a lot of addons are licensed under. |
| 10:41.25 | quiescens | o.o |
| 10:41.26 | nevcairiel | so? :P |
| 10:41.26 | Shefki | nevcairiel: Given that Kaelten and ck are very against this policy. |
| 10:41.29 | Codayus | Now there's a headache... |
| 10:41.30 | quiescens | I think I missed have missed a memo |
| 10:41.33 | Shefki | nevcairiel: I don't think you're going to see curse enforcing it. |
| 10:41.51 | nevcairiel | Shefki: your wrong about that, they are pro anti-obfuscation |
| 10:42.06 | Shefki | nevcairiel: That may be but they're not in favor of this policy. |
| 10:42.23 | do3mca | theres still LPGL |
| 10:42.42 | nevcairiel | isnt "pro" the same as "in favor of"? |
| 10:42.45 | nevcairiel | for me it is |
| 10:42.50 | Codayus | do3mca: Doesn't help here. Both are very clear about distribution. |
| 10:43.03 | Shefki | nevcairiel: You can be for something in general and against a policy forcing it. |
| 10:43.19 | Shefki | I'm in favor of a lot of things doesn't mean I think Blizzard should force it. |
| 10:43.23 | Shefki | I'm in favor of free addons. |
| 10:43.29 | Shefki | I'm against Blizzard disallowing paid addons. |
| 10:43.39 | Codayus | You CANNOT write (L)GPL code, and put some of the limits Bliz seems to be on it. |
| 10:43.57 | do3mca | uh |
| 10:44.11 | jnwhiteh | its a policy, not a license |
| 10:44.43 | Shefki | I'm not really seeing the GPL compliance issue. |
| 10:45.40 | do3mca | goes asking gpl-violations.org |
| 10:46.04 | Codayus | Not sure there is one. But if I write an addon under GPL license, it says that people I distribute it too have the right to do certain things with the addon that Bliz is saying nobody can do. It's...odd, anyhow. |
| 10:46.25 | jnwhiteh | but Blizzard is saying this in a policy |
| 10:46.27 | jnwhiteh | its not an agreement |
| 10:46.31 | jnwhiteh | no one has to agree to it |
| 10:46.34 | Codayus | True |
| 10:46.44 | jnwhiteh | it just is their policy on how they plan to deal with things, and a statement of what they feel they can protect. |
| 10:46.50 | Codayus | I give people the right to sell my addon, and Bliz has the right to sue them if they do. No problem. |
| 10:46.56 | jnwhiteh | indeed |
| 10:47.01 | Codayus | Sorry, it's pretty late here. :-) |
| 10:47.14 | Shefki | jnwhiteh: Can't really have it both ways... Either it's their policy and they can take internal action such as banning an addon... Or it is included in their ToU and part of the contract and they can take "formal legal action." |
| 10:47.34 | jnwhiteh | The ToU has nothign to dfo with legal action |
| 10:47.37 | Shefki | jnwhiteh: The policy makes it sound like they want it treated like it's part of the ToU, however the ToU don't reference it. |
| 10:47.39 | jnwhiteh | it has to do with them being able to stop your service |
| 10:47.41 | Antiarc | Maybe it's just super-broad to pave the way for them to start blacklisting addons. |
| 10:47.50 | jnwhiteh | that's why its called the "terms of use" |
| 10:47.52 | jnwhiteh | if you violate them |
| 10:47.55 | jnwhiteh | you lose the right to use the software |
| 10:48.08 | jnwhiteh | Antiarc: #8 makes it clear that they can and will do that |
| 10:48.13 | Shefki | jnwhiteh: I wouldn't consider blocking someones wow account "formal legal action." |
| 10:48.32 | jnwhiteh | You're the one who mentioned formed legal action. |
| 10:48.40 | Shefki | It's on the stinking policy page. |
| 10:48.43 | jnwhiteh | yes |
| 10:48.45 | jnwhiteh | which is a policy |
| 10:48.51 | jnwhiteh | i don't know why you are bringing the ToU into this |
| 10:48.55 | Antiarc | jnwhiteh: Yeah, I'm just wondering if they're trying to set up a series of rules that'll give them pre-established grounds for blacklisting any addon they want to. |
| 10:48.59 | jnwhiteh | its them telling you how they feel, and how they plan to address it. |
| 10:49.03 | jnwhiteh | that's what a policy is. |
| 10:49.06 | Codayus | The thing is, even if it is in the ToU, and they do sue you glider-style for being evil and asking for donations...it still doesn't violate the GPL, even though the GPL does say you have the right to ask for donations. :-) |
| 10:49.15 | Antiarc | I mean, hell, every addon ever violates #3 in the most technical sense. |
| 10:49.18 | Shefki | jnwhiteh: On what basis would they have for taking formal legal action for violating the policy if it is not included in a contract or an agreement? Nothing in there has the force of law. |
| 10:49.35 | jnwhiteh | They dont NEED to have a basis, |
| 10:49.38 | jnwhiteh | They feel they have a case |
| 10:49.40 | jnwhiteh | so they wrote a policy |
| 10:49.45 | Antiarc | That's what I'm confused about |
| 10:49.46 | jnwhiteh | and they told you what they can and will do if you violate the policy |
| 10:49.51 | quiescens | I doubt they would have a basis for taking legal action |
| 10:49.52 | jnwhiteh | the COURT is the one who decides if they have a basis for action |
| 10:49.54 | Antiarc | Threat-2.0 would have been a massive, massive violation of #3, heh. |
| 10:49.54 | Shefki | jnwhiteh: You have to have cause and standing to bring a law suit. |
| 10:49.58 | Antiarc | AOE MODE ACTIVATE |
| 10:50.04 | quiescens | they would have a basis for any internal action |
| 10:50.04 | Codayus | Someone has the right to take a GPL addon, modify it to ask for donations, and distribute it. Bliz has the right to sue you for violating the ToU, if the ToU end up saying you can't do that... |
| 10:50.10 | jnwhiteh | Shefki: if the lawyers generated the policy, they feel they have a basis. |
| 10:50.25 | Shefki | jnwhiteh: Lawyers write stuff all the time that's nonsense. |
| 10:50.34 | jnwhiteh | Shefki: and it still makes it to court |
| 10:50.37 | jnwhiteh | hence the point. |
| 10:50.39 | Shefki | jnwhiteh: You ever read some of the cease and desist letters that show up on chilling effects? |
| 10:50.40 | jnwhiteh | Why do people keep saying you can be sued for violating the ToU? |
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| 10:50.54 | Antiarc | Internet lawyers! |
| 10:50.59 | Shefki | jnwhiteh: Because it's a contract and you can be sued for breach of contract. |
| 10:51.10 | Codayus | jnwhiteh: Current US case law, I believe. I'll find a reference... |
| 10:51.12 | jnwhiteh | Shefki: But that is not the POINT of teh ToU |
| 10:51.16 | quiescens | you could technically write an addon |
| 10:51.18 | jnwhiteh | the point is they can stop your service |
| 10:51.20 | orionshock | jnwhiteh: because you can... that you would is asinine.. they would just term your account |
| 10:51.23 | quiescens | for wow, without having clicked accept |
| 10:51.24 | jnwhiteh | and you can never have agreed to the ToU and still write addons |
| 10:51.28 | jnwhiteh | exactly |
| 10:51.29 | quiescens | lol |
| 10:51.44 | jnwhiteh | the ToU has NO relevance in this discussion guys, Im' sorry. |
| 10:51.48 | jnwhiteh | its a completely separate issue |
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| 10:51.53 | Shefki | jnwhiteh: So again I ask, what would the "formal legal action" compromise? |
| 10:52.10 | jnwhiteh | compromise? |
| 10:52.14 | jnwhiteh | I don't understand the question. |
| 10:52.21 | quiescens | comprise, presumably |
| 10:52.26 | Shefki | What exactly would they be taking formal legal action over... |
| 10:52.31 | orionshock | I'd like to point out that blizzard viably enforcing #1 on that policy is in serious question for me.. I have not signed any rights to my addon over to them, thus they can shove it. |
| 10:52.34 | jnwhiteh | Shefki: we don't know.. we aren't in their legal team |
| 10:52.36 | jnwhiteh | and we don't need to be |
| 10:52.46 | jnwhiteh | when someone is suing you.. they don't tell you on what grounds they are suing you until they do it. |
| 10:53.12 | jnwhiteh | If you make money off addons, they would probably sue you for making money off their IP (for better or for worse) |
| 10:53.21 | Groktar | probably comes down to "we're suing you because we don't like you" |
| 10:53.22 | jnwhiteh | if you're obfuscating your code, they'd likely block your addon under provision #8 |
| 10:53.34 | jnwhiteh | that's why the policy EXPLICITLY states that action can be up to and including formal legal action |
| 10:53.41 | jnwhiteh | it doesn't say that's the course for every violation. |
| 10:53.47 | Groktar | ^ |
| 10:53.59 | jnwhiteh | They don't have to show their hand.. they're just telling us how the feel and what they plan to do. |
| 10:54.07 | jnwhiteh | or if nothign else, what they feel they are justified in doing |
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| 10:54.33 | Shefki | jnwhiteh: Threatening a law suit when you have no legal basis is a crime incidentally. |
| 10:54.40 | jnwhiteh | *sigh* |
| 10:54.42 | jnwhiteh | THEY THINK THEY DO |
| 10:54.45 | jnwhiteh | you seem tro not realize this. |
| 10:54.55 | Shefki | It doesn't matter if they think the moon is cheese if they don't. |
| 10:55.02 | jnwhiteh | *sigh* |
| 10:55.08 | jnwhiteh | it is up to the COURT to decide if they have a basis |
| 10:55.30 | jnwhiteh | They are lawyers, we are not. They created the policy. They clearly feel they have a legal basis for taking action against extreme cases who violate the policy. |
| 10:55.35 | jnwhiteh | There's not much more that needs to be said about it. |
| 10:55.45 | Aiiane | IANALBIPOOTV? |
| 10:55.46 | jnwhiteh | Even if we WERE laywers.. there's nothing that can be said until they DO take legal action. |
| 10:57.08 | Aiiane | for all it tries, the law isn't really objective |
| 10:57.21 | *** join/#wowace [draco] (n=drc@brsg-4dbb199e.pool.einsundeins.de) |
| 10:57.24 | Aiiane | or at least, the practical application isn't |
| 10:57.48 | *** join/#wowace LANFiRE (n=lanfire@ppp91-77-131-22.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) |
| 10:57.48 | Codayus | If you want to really worry, don't forget that as per United States v. Lori Drew, violating Terms of Use is a federal crime. |
| 10:58.19 | jnwhiteh | Codayus: that worries me no more today than it did yesterday. |
| 10:58.23 | jnwhiteh | This isn't a part of the ToU. |
| 10:58.28 | Codayus | Not yet. |
| 10:58.36 | jnwhiteh | Then you have a chance to agree with it or not. |
| 10:58.56 | Shefki | I strongly disagree which is why I have ceased all work on addons. |
| 10:59.11 | Shefki | Baring a change, I'll just find something else to do with my time. |
| 10:59.56 | Shefki | Codayus: Didn't she get off anyway? |
| 11:02.25 | jnwhiteh | Shefki: My "agree" was referring to the ToU |
| 11:02.30 | jnwhiteh | you have to accept it in order to be bound by it |
| 11:02.51 | jnwhiteh | and if it changes to include or address this, then you as an addon author or a user have the opportunity to not accept it and stop playing the game |
| 11:03.11 | Aiiane | anywho Shefki; personally I agree that #5 should be removed, I don't really think the rest of it is all that horrible |
| 11:03.13 | *** join/#wowace Lisimba (n=Lisimba@dyn45-dh.nbw.tue.nl) |
| 11:03.22 | Codayus | Shefki: No, convicted. "jurors found Drew guilty only of three counts of gaining unauthorized access to MySpace for the purpose of obtaining information on Megan Meier" |
| 11:03.30 | Aiiane | I'd post that on the forums except my WoW account isn't active atm :) |
| 11:03.37 | jnwhiteh | my account is EU |
| 11:03.38 | jnwhiteh | so I can't do much =) |
| 11:03.41 | Shefki | Aiiane: It needs fixing. |
| 11:03.52 | Shefki | Or at least clarrification. |
| 11:04.18 | Codayus | In this case, the reason the access was unauthorized is because she was in villation of the ToU. Not directly on point, of course, and it's widely agreed to be TERRIBLE case law. |
| 11:04.39 | jnwhiteh | *nod* and knowing that precedent |
| 11:04.47 | jnwhiteh | you can make an educated decisions whether or not to agree to a ToU |
| 11:04.50 | *** join/#wowace RLD_osx (n=rldempse@66-169-191-207.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com) |
| 11:04.53 | jnwhiteh | at least WoW presents you with it and forces you to accept |
| 11:05.02 | jnwhiteh | websites just say by accessing the site you already accept |
| 11:05.11 | jnwhiteh | that's the dangerous part of the case law, in my opinion |
| 11:05.47 | Codayus | Yeah. A prosecution witness said that nobody involved had read the terms. (Unsurprising - nobody does...) |
| 11:07.15 | jnwhiteh | websites are so shady |
| 11:07.26 | jnwhiteh | wowprogramming makes you agree to the terms of service when creating an accoujt |
| 11:07.32 | jnwhiteh | and has no terms that bind you prior to having an account |
| 11:07.40 | jnwhiteh | that was very important to me |
| 11:08.57 | Fisker- | oh yeah? |
| 11:09.10 | Fisker- | I'll just get an account and wreck havoc then |
| 11:09.25 | jnwhiteh | ave fun |
| 11:10.34 | quiescens | don't you have to prove damages or something to sue |
| 11:10.51 | Xinhuan | ok jnwhithe, your point is that the whole thing is just a POLICY and therefore has no legal implications/contracts/agreement basis right? it is just a document that says what they think they want to allow/disallow and possible actions they will do? |
| 11:11.16 | jnwhiteh | That is my belief yes |
| 11:12.45 | jnwhiteh | But I believe that the policy has been written by people who believe they have sufficient legal standing to take legal action against people who violate the policy, if they deem necessary. |
| 11:12.52 | Codayus | My working assumption is that the ToU will very shortly be updated to require compliance. |
| 11:12.58 | quiescens | presumably it would be difficult to pursue legal recourse without some sort of explicit agreement |
| 11:13.14 | Codayus | Hopefully after they revise the policy to not be so stupid... |
| 11:13.16 | *** join/#wowace Iboong (n=user@77.87.207.194) |
| 11:13.17 | Xinhuan | that is to say, you think clause #1 does not take away rights of authors, that is authors still have the rights to sell addons, but if said author does sell it, blizzard can choose to sue? |
| 11:13.31 | jnwhiteh | quiescens: Glider never agreed to anything with WoW, and legal action was taken against them |
| 11:13.41 | jnwhiteh | different sure, but there's something there. |
| 11:13.46 | jnwhiteh | Xinhuan: That is correct. |
| 11:13.53 | Antiarc | The Glider decision was a horrible decision :/ |
| 11:14.01 | jnwhiteh | Sure, it had plenty of bad in it, yes. |
| 11:14.01 | Codayus | I'm not clad, but it's very clear that #1 doesn't take away any rights unless people AGREE to it. That's a bedrock legal principle. |
| 11:14.10 | Shefki | I suspect the Glider decision will not stand. |
| 11:14.12 | Antiarc | I'm glad the bots are gone, but yeah, the Glider decision was bad. |
| 11:14.45 | Xinhuan | what exactly was "the glider decision" |
| 11:14.51 | *** join/#wowace RLD_osx (n=rldempse@66-169-191-207.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com) |
| 11:14.53 | jnwhiteh | They are telling us what they consider agreeable terms for addon development. If they find us in violation they will likely contact us or begin a conversation. If they feel they are forced to they will block our addons via #8, and if that just begins a cat and mouse game, they feel they can take legal action against us. |
| 11:14.57 | Codayus | However if and when you do agree to it then it would take away rights. If you never agree to it then your off into Glider territory... |
| 11:14.57 | jnwhiteh | The decision isn't the important part here |
| 11:15.14 | Antiarc | Basically, the court found that modifying the memory space of a running executable created an unauthorized derivative work, and thus violated copyright. |
| 11:15.14 | jnwhiteh | the moral of the story is that blizzard was able to take action against glider for making money off their intellectual property.. and it went to court. |
| 11:15.19 | Xinhuan | why do people keep bringing it up then? |
| 11:15.31 | jnwhiteh | Xinhuan: because people keep saying they can't sue without an "agreement" |
| 11:15.43 | Antiarc | Which is an utterly horrible, horrible legal precedent for software. |
| 11:15.43 | jnwhiteh | that is clearly not the case, as evidenced by Glider. |
| 11:15.52 | Xinhuan | blizz didn't sue because there is a lack of agreement |
| 11:15.54 | quiescens | glider case was dmca |
| 11:16.00 | Codayus | Antiarc: They also found for tortious interference because Glider helped other people violate the ToU, I think? |
| 11:16.12 | Fisker- | will probably be put in 3.1 |
| 11:16.17 | Antiarc | Codayus: Yeah, I think you're right. I remember the memory space statement the most though |
| 11:16.23 | Antiarc | Because it basically makes debuggers illegal :V |
| 11:16.25 | Fisker- | But they might change it before that if they learn2logic |
| 11:16.32 | jnwhiteh | quiescens: Yes, it was. |
| 11:16.56 | Codayus | So if ToU say "can't use for-pay addons", you might get sued for writing a for-pay addon even if you didn't agree to ToU. I don't think that would stand, but it's vaguely plausible. |
| 11:16.56 | Shefki | jnwhiteh: If you've ever followed district court decisions you'll see they make horrible decisions that are overturned all the time. |
| 11:17.10 | Shefki | Look at the Jacobson case for a good example. |
| 11:17.10 | jnwhiteh | Shefki: I'm fully aware of that, but that has absolutely no relevance here |
| 11:17.18 | jnwhiteh | That's not what's being discussed. |
| 11:17.29 | jnwhiteh | or at least, that is not the conversation that I am involved in. |
| 11:17.35 | Xinhuan | Shefki threw me an obtuse question |
| 11:17.51 | quiescens | they could do what coday says |
| 11:17.53 | quiescens | potentially |
| 11:17.56 | Xinhuan | if i have private property i own, and i have a policy that people wearing yellow shirts aren't allowed in my property, can i sue these ppl? |
| 11:17.58 | quiescens | that's how they got glider supposedly |
| 11:18.00 | jnwhiteh | Codayus: "you don't think that it would stand".. but they are lawyers and you are not. You would not know anything until you are served with the papers that they feel they are justified in filing. |
| 11:18.16 | jnwhiteh | The policy does not justify you in having the right to sue |
| 11:18.21 | jnwhiteh | that's what you guys don't seem to get |
| 11:18.24 | Shefki | Xinhuan: Actually I said the street. |
| 11:18.26 | jnwhiteh | this document does not GIVE blizzard the right to sue |
| 11:18.28 | jnwhiteh | however |
| 11:18.34 | Shefki | I was very ycareful to choose the word street and not property. |
| 11:18.47 | jnwhiteh | they have written the policy and include litigation as a possibility because they feel they are justified in taking legal action against those who violate the policy they have written |
| 11:18.59 | jnwhiteh | NOT for violating the policy.. but for something behind the reason the policy was written in the first place. |
| 11:19.02 | Shefki | Because you can probably make a case for tresspassing if you actually put up signs saying no-yellow-shirted people. |
| 11:19.03 | jnwhiteh | It's exactly as I said |
| 11:19.03 | Codayus | jnwhiteh: I'm unsure what point your trying to make, but it's either irrelevent or wrong. The glider case, as things stand, mean they could sue without it getting tossed out of court. I'm expressing my opinion that they would not win the resulting lawsuit. |
| 11:19.21 | jnwhiteh | Codayus: Whether they win or not is an interesting question.. but that's not what I'm discussing. |
| 11:19.27 | quiescens | they said that the glider software was aiding people in breaking their terms of use, people using it were circumventing blizzard's protection mechanisms, so the glider people were selling circumvention technology or whatever |
| 11:19.38 | Shefki | But how you can go from how an addon is distributed (pay or not) to tresspassing is a *HUGE* strech. |
| 11:19.46 | jnwhiteh | *sigh* |
| 11:20.05 | quiescens | so they could technically potentially use that tact again theoretically |
| 11:20.14 | jnwhiteh | correct |
| 11:20.17 | Xinhuan | i wonder if there's any lawyers in this 205 ppl channel ;p |
| 11:20.23 | jnwhiteh | or some other that they deem legally substantive |
| 11:20.32 | jnwhiteh | Whether or not there are lawyers here is irrelevant =( |
| 11:20.46 | quiescens | frankly, the way the system works over there |
| 11:21.00 | Codayus | Xinhuan: Could be, but if they're not IP lawyers in the right jurisdiction, they're unlikely to be any more qualified than I am. :-) |
| 11:21.02 | jnwhiteh | Some things are clear without needing any sort of legal background, and the current state of things is one of them. |
| 11:21.03 | quiescens | a big enough company could probably win a case about almost anything |
| 11:21.11 | quiescens | unless they are up against a bigger company or the government |
| 11:21.11 | Groktar | ^ |
| 11:21.14 | jnwhiteh | quiescens: or they would settle with the defendant |
| 11:21.18 | jnwhiteh | this is the point |
| 11:21.23 | jnwhiteh | and one of the failings of the legal system. |
| 11:21.39 | jnwhiteh | but again, not really what should be the topic of discussion here =/ |
| 11:21.41 | Xinhuan | so jnwhiteh, do you think a string hidden deep in my FAQ in my addon that says "Do you accept donations? Yes, send them to xxx@yyy.zzz" violates #5? |
| 11:21.47 | Codayus | The bottom line is, the policy is meaningless until they make people agree to adhere to it in the terms of use. Then it impacts people who agreed to it, and via the glider decision, potentially people who didn't. Not so? |
| 11:21.49 | Ommadawn | I'm not sure there a lot of lawyers interrested in writing wow add-ons... ;) |
| 11:22.08 | *** join/#wowace Megalon (n=starfox@d86-32-171-156.cust.tele2.at) |
| 11:22.23 | Xinhuan | well glider isn't an addon |
| 11:22.25 | jnwhiteh | Xinhuan: Personally, I do not. Although I suspect they would be happier with you saying "Yes, please visit the addon's page at http://xxx.yyy.com for more information" |
| 11:22.36 | Shefki | The policy is ridiculously overreaching. I don't see how it's not appropriate discussion for us here. |
| 11:22.39 | quiescens | the way the glider case worked, it didn't "affect" the people that didn't agree to it or whatever |
| 11:23.07 | jnwhiteh | Codayus: not exactly |
| 11:23.13 | jnwhiteh | let me see if i can write this up more succinctly. |
| 11:23.31 | Antiarc | Welcome to WoW! Please visit http://mysite.com/q=random_code_here and copy the code there to active your copy of MyAddon. |
| 11:23.38 | Antiarc | *pastes big donate button on activation page* |
| 11:23.48 | *** join/#wowace Legorol (n=legorol@stud-nat-blk12.trin.cam.ac.uk) |
| 11:23.56 | Antiarc | Technically allowed and far worse than anything we have today! |
| 11:24.06 | Xinhuan | elsia posted its obvious that answering yes to whether you accept donations can be anything but seen as soliciting |
| 11:24.13 | Codayus | quiescens: I believe that's incorrect. AFAIK, Blizzard didn't claim that the Glider author had agreed to the ToU; in any case he lost in part because he helped OTHER people violate the ToU. |
| 11:24.50 | quiescens | no, it wasn't "helping people violate the tou" itself |
| 11:25.05 | *** join/#wowace digmouse_ (n=chatzill@58.20.47.166) |
| 11:25.27 | Xinhuan | is there a downloadable summary PDF of this glider case? |
| 11:25.28 | quiescens | it was argued as "selling tools to circumvent a content protection scheme" |
| 11:25.45 | quiescens | the final court thingies are all over the place |
| 11:25.53 | quiescens | there are plenty of summaries though |
| 11:26.36 | silentium | Xinhuan: the new 3.0.0.2 CurseClient release offers to update BankItems from r103 to r106 (which the previous CC release 2.0.0.14 didnt). also on curse.com the newest BankItems release is r103 from 24 Oct 2008 while wowace.com says the newest version is r106 from 30 Jan 2009 - any clue why curse.com doesnt show the newer release from january? |
| 11:26.43 | Antiarc | http://virtuallyblind.com/files/mdy/07-14-08_Order.pdf |
| 11:26.45 | Antiarc | Enjoy, Xinhuan |
| 11:26.51 | Shefki | http://www.scribd.com/doc/3952427/MDY-Industries-v-Blizzard-Entertainment-D-Ariz-No-062555 |
| 11:26.57 | Shefki | ^ That's the actual decision. |
| 11:27.05 | Xinhuan | err |
| 11:27.30 | Shefki | Here's a summary/explanation: http://williampatry.blogspot.com/2008/07/strange-copyright-world-of-warcraft.html |
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| 11:28.57 | Xinhuan | silentium, the description wasn't updated |
| 11:29.12 | Xinhuan | Oct24 is the last release (v103) |
| 11:29.16 | Xinhuan | r103 |
| 11:29.22 | Xinhuan | r106 is just an alpha |
| 11:29.54 | Xinhuan | that is to say, r103 == latest release, r106 == latest alpha |
| 11:30.55 | silentium | hm strange, I've never told my CC to check for alpha versions |
| 11:31.26 | quiescens | that's what you think |
| 11:31.27 | silentium | but I've now manually forced it to check for release versions only, and it doesnt offer r106 any more - thanks for clarifying |
| 11:31.28 | jnwhiteh | Codayus: Xinhuan: http://pastey.net/110625 |
| 11:31.37 | jnwhiteh | I don't know if its any clearer in one place, but *shrug* |
| 11:31.55 | Shefki | Xinhuan: Another good explanation of the case, better than the first one I linked: http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2009/01/judges-ruling-that-wow-bot-violates-dmca-is-troubling.ars |
| 11:32.13 | Codayus | Incidentally, check out section IV on page 22 of the document Shefki linked. Discussed tortious interference, which would apply to many wow addons. |
| 11:32.26 | silentium | quiescens: well until yesterday I used the previous release version of CC (which was the old 2.0.0.14) and it never offered to update BankItems to r106 |
| 11:32.51 | Fisker- | silentium as far as i know Kaelten talked about that there's a "grace period" |
| 11:33.07 | Fisker- | and if the project is massively outdated but with newer beta or alpha builds it will automatically change to that |
| 11:33.19 | quiescens | what's the latest version of the curse client anyway |
| 11:33.22 | Shefki | Codayus: I think you'd be hard pressed to jump from most of those clauses in the ui policy to tortious interference. |
| 11:33.26 | Codayus | jnwhiteh: I don't see anything to possibly disagree with in that. |
| 11:33.34 | jnwhiteh | Well, that's my statement, full stop |
| 11:33.36 | Shefki | Codayus: And the ones I think do apply are the ones we agree with. |
| 11:33.45 | jnwhiteh | Shefki: http://pastey.net/110625 as well, i forgot to link you. |
| 11:34.23 | *** join/#wowace cncfanatics (n=cncfanat@WoWUIDev/cncfanatics) |
| 11:34.41 | Codayus | Shefki: No? The valid contract, knowledge of relationship, and interference can probably be assumed. |
| 11:34.46 | silentium | well, I've now told my CC 3.0.0.2 to reset the release preference to "Release" for all addons, and it doesnt offer me to update BankItems to r106 any more, so it seems to accept the older release from Oct |
| 11:35.01 | Shefki | Codayus: Selling an addon that doesn't violate any terms of use doesn't violate the contract. |
| 11:35.04 | Xinhuan | blizzard will probably still do well to clarify their clauses |
| 11:35.20 | Shefki | Codayus: Making an addon with a donate button does not interfere at all with any Blizzard contract. |
| 11:35.33 | Codayus | Shefki: ...it will if/when they change it to say it does. Do try to keep up. :-) |
| 11:35.50 | Codayus | Damages would be the hard part, especially for a donation button. |
| 11:35.50 | Shefki | Codayus: If they include the policy by reference then yes. |
| 11:35.55 | Shefki | Codayus: BUt we're not there yet. |
| 11:36.07 | Xinhuan | well blizzard has alot of policies |
| 11:36.12 | Xinhuan | such as the character naming one |
| 11:36.31 | Codayus | Since there's zero point in discussing it otherwise, that's a remarkably pointless stipulation. |
| 11:36.45 | Xinhuan | it is a policy on character naming, but its not legally binding right? |
| 11:36.51 | Shefki | Xinhuan: It's included in the ToU |
| 11:37.16 | *** join/#wowace RLD_osx (n=rldempse@66.169.191.207) |
| 11:37.20 | Shefki | http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/legal/termsofuse.html |
| 11:37.23 | Shefki | See section 9A |
| 11:37.25 | Xinhuan | maybe that particular policy was a bad example ;p |
| 11:37.35 | quiescens | obviously the ToU allows people to do whatever they want internally |
| 11:37.58 | quiescens | the argument is whether they would have recourse in a legal system based on a policy |
| 11:38.19 | Shefki | Xinhuan: I'm unaware of any particular policy that isn't in some way referenced in the TOU or simply not an explanation of the terms of use other than this new UI policy. |
| 11:38.46 | Shefki | Xinhuan: Most of the policies fall under the we can terminate your account if we feel like it. |
| 11:39.29 | *** join/#wowace Worf_ (n=worf@84-119-71-46.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at) |
| 11:39.30 | Shefki | But the UI policy encompases things that happen outside of the game. |
| 11:39.39 | Shefki | And entirely outside of the terms of use. |
| 11:39.55 | Codayus | Anyhow, the Glider reasoning would apply fairly well to QuestHelper if the addon policy went live. |
| 11:39.58 | Shefki | Glider wasn't an issue becuase it was sold. It was an issue because it was a cheat. |
| 11:40.12 | Shefki | Codayus: If they called QuestHelper a cheat sure. |
| 11:40.39 | Shefki | Imagine if Popcap was selling Bejewled. |
| 11:40.58 | Shefki | How could Blizzard possibly claim it's a bad influence on the game or violates the ToU? |
| 11:41.05 | *** join/#wowace Sliker_Hawk (n=SlikerHa@5addec56.bb.sky.com) |
| 11:41.07 | Shefki | The only argument against it would be that it wasn't free. |
| 11:41.15 | Shefki | They could block it if they wanted. |
| 11:41.18 | Codayus | Well, true. They'd need to make it clear that it's USING an evil addon which is the violation... |
| 11:41.18 | jnwhiteh | Codayus: you keep assuming that they are making this a part of the ToU |
| 11:41.39 | Shefki | But there'd be no Tortious interference on the part of Popcap. |
| 11:41.41 | quiescens | mm |
| 11:42.00 | Shefki | Codayus: I don't see how they can get from "you bought the addon" to it's evil. |
| 11:42.09 | quiescens | is there a way to sort the list of addons in the curse client by how recently it was updated |
| 11:42.27 | quiescens | I mean, the list of installed addons obviously |
| 11:42.58 | Codayus | jnwhiteh: Mmm, yes. |
| 11:43.28 | jnwhiteh | if people willfully plan to violate the policy and agree to the ToU anyway, that could certainly set up a pretty nasty battle =/ |
| 11:43.31 | Shefki | They can not like it, they can try and block it but I just don't see how there's any recourse for them other than playing whack a mole in banning it. |
| 11:44.09 | Codayus | jnwhiteh: If they don't, then it's...not particularly objectionable at all, so there's no real reason to man the barricades and/or start shouting from the top of a soapbox, and where's the fun in THAT? |
| 11:44.18 | jnwhiteh | Codayus: ... |
| 11:44.31 | jnwhiteh | oh, I didn't realize we were stirring up trouble for shits and giggles |
| 11:44.36 | jnwhiteh | oh, damn.. I'm in #wowace |
| 11:44.36 | jnwhiteh | nvm |
| 11:44.46 | Shefki | jnwhiteh: I don't think anyone is planning to. |
| 11:45.19 | Shefki | jnwhiteh: But to be honest, it's might tempting to write a nice little mini-game and sell it just to stick it to them. |
| 11:45.24 | Codayus | jnwhiteh: *shrug* I was being serious, actually. If you interpret this as a prelude to being added to the ToU then as written it's very very serious. |
| 11:45.38 | jnwhiteh | Codayus: and you're given the chance to agree or disagree |
| 11:45.49 | jnwhiteh | and until thenm you have an opportunity to write to them and provide constructive feedback. |
| 11:46.02 | jnwhiteh | Shefki: see, that's just sad =/ |
| 11:46.03 | *** join/#wowace Elsia (i=elsiarow@p57A23F01.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 11:46.09 | Codayus | If it's a formalized "oh hey, here's a list of things that piss us off" then it's relatively fine, but I'd still like some clarification. |
| 11:46.11 | jnwhiteh | in my opinion, sorry |
| 11:46.16 | Shefki | jnwhiteh: Why is it sad to resist something you feel is wrong? |
| 11:46.34 | Codayus | jnwhiteh: You keep saying stuff about the chance to agree or disagree as if it makes it okay. |
| 11:46.38 | jnwhiteh | Codayus: it does |
| 11:46.40 | jnwhiteh | they control the game |
| 11:46.43 | jnwhiteh | they can do whatever the hell they want |
| 11:46.51 | jnwhiteh | and if they doo too much, then they lose subscribers |
| 11:47.01 | jnwhiteh | look what happened to facebook, they crossed a line and they got smacked down |
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| 11:47.07 | Codayus | If you enjoy wow and/or addons, and you think this policy will damage that, then the fact that you have to agree could scarcely be less important, no? |
| 11:47.11 | *** join/#wowace LANFiRE` (n=lanfire@ppp91-76-49-77.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) |
| 11:47.19 | jnwhiteh | Of course! |
| 11:47.25 | jnwhiteh | But we don't have to agree right now |
| 11:47.38 | Elsia | how can the policy impact how you enjoy wow? |
| 11:47.47 | jnwhiteh | and most people who are up in arms wont' have to spend more than a minute thinking about whether or not they will click "Agree" if it hits the ToU |
| 11:47.50 | Codayus | Saying "ah, but I can get off this train before it goes over the cliff" doesn't make the whole cliff thing okay. |
| 11:47.52 | jnwhiteh | they'll just stop playing the game |
| 11:48.04 | jnwhiteh | Codayus: that's not an appropriate analogy at all. |
| 11:48.09 | Codayus | ...true, sorry. |
| 11:49.20 | Shefki | jnwhiteh: I don't suspect they'll lose very many users at all if this was added to the TOU. |
| 11:49.20 | Codayus | But hopefully my point came across. "This is a bad idea, it will mean many authors stop writing, and damage the addon ecosystem". "Yeah, but they have the choice to stop writing, so it's okay" "..." |
| 11:49.25 | jnwhiteh | A more apt analogy is "If the train conductor comes on the train and wakes everyone up and informs them that by staying on the train you agree to be driven off a cliff to almost certain death. He then gives everyone the opportunity to leave the train. Once every single person has agreed or disagreed to leave the train, he drives it off a cliff" |
| 11:49.28 | Shefki | jnwhiteh: Most people just click accept without reading. |
| 11:49.39 | Repo | 10big-wigs: 03Maat * r5061 Ulduar/Mimiron.lua: Mimiron hard mode abilities |
| 11:49.41 | jnwhiteh | Shefki: consumerist, slashdot, wowinsider, etc. |
| 11:49.53 | jnwhiteh | no one knew about facebook's change until a month after |
| 11:49.58 | Shefki | jnwhiteh: That worked really well with Warden. |
| 11:50.03 | jnwhiteh | and consumers can and have taken stands |
| 11:50.11 | Shefki | jnwhiteh: Slashdot et al were all up in arms over it. |
| 11:50.12 | jnwhiteh | Shefki: then we can see where this would end up, don't we =) |
| 11:50.19 | Shefki | For about 3 days and thene veryone forgot it. |
| 11:50.23 | Codayus | jnwhiteh: And that'd be terrible, especially if you were really enjoying the train ride, had invested a lot of time and effort on making your compartment pretty, and didn't have comparable transportation options... |
| 11:50.34 | Shefki | jnwhiteh: Except the only way to challenge it is to: |
| 11:50.40 | Shefki | a) Excert leverage that the addon community has. |
| 11:50.58 | Shefki | b) Violate it and dare Blizzard to do something about it pointing out that they really can't. |
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| 11:51.15 | Shefki | That's really our only choices. |
| 11:51.17 | Elsia | I still don't understand why there is any problem with the policy unless you tried to make money or obfuscate code |
| 11:51.39 | jnwhiteh | Shefki: if you are willing to make that legal stand, then feel free |
| 11:51.39 | Shefki | Elsia: Why should Blizzard tell you how you can and can'tt distribute your addons that you wrote? |
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| 11:51.47 | jnwhiteh | I think you'll get contacted by Blizzard |
| 11:51.51 | jnwhiteh | I think they'll block the addon |
| 11:51.56 | Elsia | it doesn't say anything about distribution or do I miss something? |
| 11:52.01 | jnwhiteh | I think they may ban your account if they can determine definitively which one it is |
| 11:52.05 | Shefki | I've been sued by Apple before. I'm not particularly afraid of people writing me letters. |
| 11:52.12 | jnwhiteh | and if you continue to sell addons, I think they will take legal action against you |
| 11:52.16 | jnwhiteh | Shefki: Then more power to you |
| 11:52.34 | jnwhiteh | I just do not believe this is worth the fight |
| 11:52.44 | Shefki | And if I'm selling something like a mini-game I have no doubt they'd lose. |
| 11:52.47 | Elsia | I still don't understand what people are even fighting |
| 11:53.01 | jnwhiteh | Elsia: there's over 30 pages of forum posts on the different sites. |
| 11:53.17 | Shefki | Elsia: It says all addons must be free. |
| 11:53.24 | Elsia | that's fine |
| 11:53.24 | Shefki | Elsia: That's dictating my license terms. |
| 11:53.38 | Elsia | I always felt that blizz has the licensing rights anyway ;) |
| 11:53.47 | Shefki | Based on what? |
| 11:54.03 | Codayus | Elsia: That puts you in a vanishingly small minority. |
| 11:54.05 | Elsia | derivative work of their API, they have full rights to that. see ToU |
| 11:54.14 | Shefki | API's cannot be copyrighted. |
| 11:54.16 | Elsia | I have no problem with being in the minority |
| 11:54.18 | Codayus | Now that you understand that nobody else things that way, NOW you understand why everybody else sees this as a problem. |
| 11:54.43 | Elsia | I have no problem with blizz protecting their gaming experience. it's a tort protection move. it's fine |
| 11:54.57 | Codayus | ... s/few/nobody/ s/things/thinks/ s/everyone else sees/many other people see/ |
| 11:55.05 | Shefki | Elsia: Tort for what? How is selling an addon violating any contract a user has accepted? |
| 11:55.31 | Shefki | And what does an addon being sold have to do with the gaming experience? |
| 11:56.03 | Elsia | it does. it changes the perception what you have to pay for. But I understand that you want the right to sell addons. |
| 11:56.27 | Elsia | I don't think you have the right. Let me give you another example completely removed. |
| 11:56.32 | Elsia | Someone runs an Inn |
| 11:56.39 | Shefki | If we don't have the right to sell our addons then we can't possibly have the right to dispute what WoWmatrix does. |
| 11:56.49 | Shefki | Or to ask sites that we don't like to stop distributing them. |
| 11:56.53 | Elsia | they make a "open art show day" where people can come exhibit their pictures. |
| 11:57.00 | jnwhiteh | Shefki: that's not true. |
| 11:57.07 | Elsia | people start turning it into a flee market and make secondary business |
| 11:57.17 | Elsia | the inn keeper sees it as imacting their own business model |
| 11:57.26 | jnwhiteh | You still retain full copyright. You still dictate the license of your addon and where it can and is distributed. |
| 11:57.28 | Elsia | but the economy only even exists because the inn keeps the inn running. |
| 11:57.46 | Elsia | the inn keeper has the right to turn off the secondary market because it is based on his investments |
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| 11:57.46 | Shefki | jnwhiteh: Define free, there are many meanings. |
| 11:57.56 | Shefki | jnwhiteh: English is rather imprecise as to the meaning. |
| 11:57.58 | jnwhiteh | I didn't use the word free. |
| 11:58.02 | Elsia | that's all there is to this. blizz is the inn keeper, we are the people invited to operate on their platform. |
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| 11:58.50 | Elsia | that's the tort. the secondary market can in no way impact the primary, without having the primary's concent. |
| 11:58.55 | Shefki | jnwhiteh: I view the addons must be free as an end run around my copyright. |
| 11:59.09 | jnwhiteh | Shefki: you cannot remove the word "free" from the phrase "free of charge" if you are referring to Blizzard's policy. |
| 11:59.33 | Codayus | Elsia: I don't think the analogy works. The innkeeper can regulate what goes on in the inn; Blizz is regulating what goes on outside their inn... |
| 11:59.46 | Shefki | Exactly what Codayus said. |
| 11:59.55 | Shefki | If you buying an addon was an in game activity then fine. |
| 11:59.57 | Shefki | But it's not. |
| 12:00.10 | Codayus | I think most people don't have an issue with banning Carbonite (or Questhelper), or even banning those addons authors. Blizzards game, their rules. |
| 12:00.23 | Elsia | OK so your outsource the money transfer from the inn. The inn is still economically impacted. Can the Inn keeper say: No selling in my art fair? Yes he can. This is exactly what blizz does. |
| 12:00.29 | Elsia | "Only free art in this inn" |
| 12:00.40 | Shefki | The only way I can see that they can claim that they can demand that is by them claiming it is a deriviative work, which is nonesense. |
| 12:01.05 | Codayus | Elsia: Your analogy is getting tortured, and still doesn't work I don't think. |
| 12:01.06 | Elsia | They don't. They claim Terms of Use, which they can. |
| 12:01.11 | Shefki | Elsia: I'd argue what Blizzard is doing is like this: |
| 12:01.16 | Shefki | Innkeeper has an art show. |
| 12:01.17 | jnwhiteh | Shefki: How does this affect your copyright? |
| 12:01.18 | Shefki | I buy a painting. |
| 12:01.22 | jnwhiteh | You are still free to do whatever you wish with your work |
| 12:01.22 | Shefki | I bring painting to show. |
| 12:01.26 | jnwhiteh | they cannot restrict that in any way |
| 12:01.33 | jnwhiteh | Just like I can take the knife I own and stab someone with it |
| 12:01.35 | jnwhiteh | its my knife. |
| 12:01.35 | Shefki | Inn keeper says that I can't bring the painting I bought because I bought it. |
| 12:01.40 | jnwhiteh | I can do anythign I want with that no one can restrict it |
| 12:01.51 | jnwhiteh | but I face legal action by doing certain things within other people's sphere of control |
| 12:01.56 | Codayus | Since the relevant example here is Bliz saying what people can write outside the inn, and sell outside the inn, even if they've never been inside the inn. (Then again, maybe they aren't. That's what's getting people agitated.) |
| 12:01.57 | jnwhiteh | or face "some" action |
| 12:02.08 | quiescens | that's fine, they're allowed to say that you can't bring the painting |
| 12:02.18 | jnwhiteh | Codayus: in order to be an "Addon" for world of warcraft it has to go inside the inn at some point |
| 12:02.25 | jnwhiteh | at which point the restrictions come into play |
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| 12:02.45 | jnwhiteh | if I write code, and it appears to use blizzard's api and had a .toc and everything else.. if no one ever uses it in WoW, its not an addon (in my opinion) |
| 12:02.49 | jnwhiteh | as soon as someone does, it is |
| 12:03.08 | Shefki | The API is irrelevent as is the TOC. |
| 12:03.12 | Codayus | jnwhiteh: Does it? I'm not sure. That line of thinking lends itself to some odd hair splitting too. |
| 12:03.15 | Elsia | Codayus: The point of my example is simple: There is a host platform in both cases. Inn or WoW ingame. As long as you use the host platform in any way to drive your economy you have the portential to tort that platform. In both cases the platform can restirct in any way(!) what happens on their platform. Even if you do not like it. You have the right to not enter the Inn or not play WoW. That is all. |
| 12:03.16 | Shefki | An interface gives them no extra control. |
| 12:03.29 | jnwhiteh | Shefki: I'm not implying it does |
| 12:03.34 | Codayus | If I write and distribute an addon without a toc, but with instructions for making a valid toc, who has violated the policy? :-) |
| 12:03.37 | quiescens | they can restrict their platform in any way |
| 12:03.41 | jnwhiteh | I am defining what makes an addon for me |
| 12:03.44 | Shefki | If you believe that I have shares in a nice little Utah company that I'd love to sell you. |
| 12:03.46 | jnwhiteh | and that's use and intent |
| 12:03.51 | quiescens | within their control |
| 12:03.53 | jnwhiteh | Shefki: I don't... why don't you listen? |
| 12:04.00 | jnwhiteh | I never said that, nor did I imply that. |
| 12:04.09 | jnwhiteh | I said it for the sake of completeness |
| 12:04.26 | jnwhiteh | linking the two things that people might consider "Blizzard's", considering at least someone in this channel does. |
| 12:04.47 | jnwhiteh | Sure, it's a contrived example.. but that's all of this (which is part of the problem) |
| 12:04.49 | Codayus | Elsia: Innkeepers can say "no shirt no service" Blizz can say "use carbonite and get banned". |
| 12:04.59 | Shefki | jnwhiteh: The implementation of the API does belong to Blizzard, they simply can't restrict anyone from using it. |
| 12:05.14 | Shefki | Not with copyright law at least. |
| 12:05.25 | jnwhiteh | Shefki: Yes, I'm 100% aware of this |
| 12:05.27 | jnwhiteh | whats your poin |
| 12:05.31 | jnwhiteh | I NEVER said otherwise? |
| 12:05.37 | Codayus | But anything beyond that? No. This is more like saying an innkeeper can control other people or shops outside who might be benefiting from the foot traffic the inn generates or something... |
| 12:05.44 | jnwhiteh | so why are you arguing a point that's obviously clear to both of us. |
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| 12:06.00 | Shefki | If i own the addon, you agree that it's not a derivitive work, then how exactly is Blizzard going to stop me from selling it? |
| 12:06.13 | jnwhiteh | Shefki: I don't know.. I'm not on their legal team |
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| 12:06.18 | jnwhiteh | but they clearly believe they have a basis for this |
| 12:06.29 | jnwhiteh | and you will find out if you are served |
| 12:06.32 | Elsia | Codayus: you doN't get it. There is no addon market without wow. Blizz says nothing about addons that are never run in WoW. Only if you enter their domain do they put down the gauntlet. You can sell an addon that's never used for sure. |
| 12:06.35 | Codayus | jnwhiteh: That's a remarkable assumption. :-) |
| 12:06.35 | quiescens | of course they have a basis |
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| 12:06.44 | quiescens | but as we said, you could potentially have a basis for almost anything |
| 12:06.46 | jnwhiteh | Codayus: I don't think it is |
| 12:06.57 | quiescens | it will just be a matter of whether people are willing to fight it |
| 12:06.58 | jnwhiteh | quiescens: of course! |
| 12:07.01 | Codayus | Elsia: Someone builds an inn, and a town springs up. There's no town without the inn, the innkeeper says... |
| 12:07.01 | jnwhiteh | that's precisely the point |
| 12:07.12 | Shefki | And I think someone should fight it. |
| 12:07.14 | Elsia | Let me give another less related example of a business tort that doesn't even need to be about being inside a domain of a primary market |
| 12:07.19 | Shefki | If for no other reason than the principle of the matter. |
| 12:07.37 | Shefki | Becuase the only logical conclusion I can draw is that Blizzard believes our addons are derivitive works. |
| 12:07.45 | jnwhiteh | Shefki: then fight it? |
| 12:07.47 | Elsia | An inn keeper runs a pub with exremely popular food and sells drinks also. |
| 12:07.50 | Codayus | jnwhiteh: A recently drafted policy that says there might be legal action for a serious violation...does NOT actually mean that there's a lawyer who seriously thinks they can stop people from selling addons. |
| 12:08.08 | quiescens | okay elsia, on this analogy, the pub can say you can't bring in your own food/drinks |
| 12:08.09 | Codayus | Doesn't mean there isn't one, but that's a huge leap. :-) |
| 12:08.16 | quiescens | but if you do bring in your food/drink |
| 12:08.18 | jnwhiteh | Codayus: Believe whatever you want to believe, but you said you didn't disagree with any of the points I made in my post, and that was included. |
| 12:08.24 | quiescens | the inn cannot then go and sue the make of the food and drink |
| 12:08.26 | quiescens | that you brought in |
| 12:08.46 | jnwhiteh | yes they can! |
| 12:08.51 | jnwhiteh | they can sue you for damages |
| 12:08.53 | jnwhiteh | you cost them business |
| 12:08.55 | jnwhiteh | they can also kick you out |
| 12:08.57 | Shefki | He said the MAKER of the food. |
| 12:09.00 | Elsia | Someone opens a booth outside using the advertisement of the inn to drive traffic to themselves diverting form the inn but needing the inn events to actually get business. The inn keeper does have a tort claim here if he can make the case that the way the people exploit his marketing is not value neutral. |
| 12:09.06 | jnwhiteh | oh, he typoed. |
| 12:09.11 | Shefki | It's the same example as your knife. |
| 12:09.14 | jnwhiteh | my mistake |
| 12:09.25 | Elsia | So you do not even need property control for tort claims, just show that the actions of others have impacted market neutrality. |
| 12:09.25 | jnwhiteh | yes.. he didn't write "maker".. he said "make" which cause me to misread it. |
| 12:09.35 | Codayus | jnwhiteh: Nope, it didn't. I just reread to check. :-) I assume Bliz does think they have firm legal standing to sue people for sufficiently serious violations of at least some clauses of the policy. |
| 12:09.43 | Elsia | This has nothing to do with this, just to indiciate that torts have more reach than you guys seem to believe. |
| 12:09.58 | Shefki | basically the way I see this is Blizzard's only course of action is to try and block my non-TOU violating mini-game addon that I'm selling. |
| 12:10.02 | Shefki | Which a) makes them look like dicks. |
| 12:10.04 | jnwhiteh | Codayus: okay.. how is that any different |
| 12:10.05 | Codayus | But that doesn't mean they think they can sue over the bejewelled addon, for example. |
| 12:10.16 | Shefki | b) I'm entirely able to modify the addon to evade the block. |
| 12:10.16 | jnwhiteh | Is Bejewelled making money? |
| 12:10.21 | jnwhiteh | i.e. is PopCap selling the addon? |
| 12:10.23 | Shefki | jnwhiteh: Nope. |
| 12:10.25 | Codayus | jnwhiteh: It's obfuscated, and violated the policy. |
| 12:10.28 | jnwhiteh | sure |
| 12:10.28 | Shefki | jnwhiteh: But I see no reason they can't. |
| 12:10.29 | jnwhiteh | and they wouldn't sue |
| 12:10.32 | jnwhiteh | that's the point of my post. |
| 12:10.46 | jnwhiteh | Its CLEAR why free was #1 on this list guys |
| 12:10.48 | Codayus | So, it's technically in violation, and neither one of has ANY idea if Bliz has a lawyer on staff who ACTUALLY thinks they could. |
| 12:10.57 | jnwhiteh | and its not difficult to understand that there are tiers of "violations" here |
| 12:11.13 | Shefki | jnwhiteh: Unless of course Blizzard believes that all addons are derivitive works by using their API and as such they have an ownership interest in and can dictate that they be free by licensing. |
| 12:11.17 | *** part/#wowace mitchnull (n=mitchnul@catv3EC947C2.pool.t-online.hu) |
| 12:11.32 | jnwhiteh | so |
| 12:11.35 | jnwhiteh | what does bitching about it do? |
| 12:11.38 | jnwhiteh | provide constructive feedback |
| 12:11.41 | jnwhiteh | fight the system by selling addons |
| 12:11.44 | jnwhiteh | obfuscate all you want |
| 12:11.53 | Shefki | jnwhiteh: We're having a discussion here. |
| 12:11.59 | jnwhiteh | Shefki: not everyone is, which is my point |
| 12:12.07 | jnwhiteh | and many of you already have valid points and courses of actions |
| 12:12.13 | jnwhiteh | and just like Blizzard you're "threatening" them =) |
| 12:12.25 | Codayus | Bliz can more or less ban you for arbitrary reasons and you have no recourse, so "fighting the system" is pretty much limited to tempting a lawsuit and winning... |
| 12:12.33 | jnwhiteh | I just hope you guys express your concerns and opinions to Blizzard |
| 12:12.36 | jnwhiteh | not "THIS PISSES ME OFF" |
| 12:12.42 | jnwhiteh | But I'm concerned about x and would like clarification on y |
| 12:12.46 | jnwhiteh | that is helpful tot he community |
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| 12:13.05 | Shefki | jnwhiteh: I've made posts on the forums that aren't just "THIS PISSES ME OFF" |
| 12:13.16 | jnwhiteh | the forums are not the correct method of feedback |
| 12:13.19 | jnwhiteh | that was made clear from day #1 |
| 12:13.53 | Shefki | jnwhiteh: Of course it is. Why wouldn't the forums be a valid way to give feedback? |
| 12:14.04 | Shefki | jnwhiteh: The email address is for questions. |
| 12:14.06 | Shefki | Not feedback. |
| 12:14.10 | jnwhiteh | ... |
| 12:14.20 | Shefki | Hell that email address goes to devs. |
| 12:14.27 | Shefki | Becuase I've been given it to email them before. |
| 12:14.29 | Fisker- | logic and discussion wins the race |
| 12:14.30 | Industrial | FIRST PAGE EPIC THREAD LOLOLOL |
| 12:14.41 | Industrial | thats why its not a good feedback place |
| 12:14.59 | nevcairiel | people liky fisker are why we cant have discussions on the forums =( |
| 12:15.04 | Shefki | It seems pretty clear the purpose of that email is to ask if X addon violates the policy. |
| 12:15.10 | Industrial | Fisker-: this is why we cant have nice things! |
| 12:15.14 | quiescens | lol |
| 12:15.52 | Codayus | It is fairly clear that they're not asking for feedback. |
| 12:15.53 | Fisker- | I'm actually kinda happy they banned ads and for-profit addons |
| 12:15.59 | Fisker- | Though technically one should trust in the free market |
| 12:16.01 | Fisker- | but still |
| 12:16.05 | Codayus | I do hope they're getting it anyhow though. |
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| 12:16.26 | Shefki | Flooding it with "We think your policy sucks and here's why." Doesn't seem any more effective than the forums. If anything at least the forums allow us to engage in a public discussion that all can benefit from. |
| 12:16.50 | jnwhiteh | well i guess its the benefit that I consider dubious |
| 12:16.56 | jnwhiteh | =) |
| 12:17.05 | Shefki | If Blizzard responds to me in an email who is going to believe me? |
| 12:17.14 | Shefki | Even if I post the email people will say it's fake. |
| 12:17.37 | Fisker- | heh |
| 12:17.39 | quiescens | fake! |
| 12:17.45 | vhaarr | '.. after nearly an hour of analysis bomb experts realised that the cause of the scare was in fact a copy of the "Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch"' |
| 12:17.55 | Fisker- | Reminds me of trying to convince the european forums that the beta was started |
| 12:17.58 | vhaarr | http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/5018294/Pub-evacuated-after-Monty-Python-prop-mistaken-for-grenade.html |
| 12:18.05 | Shefki | vhaarr: lol |
| 12:18.06 | Elsia | "The 5 is all out" |
| 12:18.27 | Fisker- | OH MY GODS VHAAR |
| 12:18.34 | nevcairiel | haha |
| 12:18.43 | quiescens | heh |
| 12:19.13 | Fisker- | http://i44.tinypic.com/33urjt3.jpg <-fail :( |
| 12:19.23 | Shefki | lol a Windmill was evacuated too. |
| 12:19.33 | Shefki | I'd call this a joke if it wasn't on the telegraph. |
| 12:19.55 | Elsia | it's april 1st two weeks early :P |
| 12:19.59 | Shefki | Unless I'm just not understanding some Queen's English meaning of "Windmill put" |
| 12:20.19 | vhaarr | I figured it was a spelling mistake for "pub" |
| 12:20.31 | Shefki | Ahh that makes more sense. |
| 12:20.36 | *** join/#wowace Medalist (n=Medalist@78.174.179.9) |
| 12:20.52 | Shefki | But saying a Windmill was evacuated makes it funnier. |
| 12:21.56 | vhaarr | I don't see why you'd hold the Telegraph in any high regard, considering this article has at least 2 grammar mistakes and one spelling error. |
| 12:22.03 | Shefki | jnwhiteh: Incidentally, I posted in the UI forums, not the General ones. That thread is pointless. |
| 12:22.18 | Shefki | vhaarr: I don't, except I know it's not a joke site. |
| 12:22.30 | vhaarr | ah right |
| 12:22.32 | jnwhiteh | pointless because the users like this change? |
| 12:22.33 | Shefki | vhaarr: They at least try to report facts. |
| 12:22.44 | Shefki | vhaarr: I meant like as opposed to say the onion. |
| 12:22.53 | vhaarr | yes, I get it :p |
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| 12:23.09 | Shefki | jnwhiteh: Pointless because there's really no intelligent conversation. |
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| 12:23.53 | Shefki | jnwhiteh: 90% of the comments are "They're trying to profit off Blizzard's IP" nonesense. Which I think you agree is nonsense. |
| 12:24.07 | jnwhiteh | *nod* i know, i'm just being a pita |
| 12:24.08 | jnwhiteh | :P |
| 12:24.20 | jnwhiteh | but it does show what the users think and how they feel |
| 12:24.22 | jnwhiteh | they just go way too far |
| 12:24.34 | Elsia | Shefki: My point is that blizz can choose the framework how their platform is used. They did that. It limits how you can create a secondary market. I understand that that's tough for you. But that doesn't mean they cannot or should not do this., |
| 12:25.13 | Shefki | jnwhiteh: I'm fine with people agreeing with the change... Provided that they an at least see the opposing arguments. Hell I generally agree with the idea that addons should be free. |
| 12:25.18 | Shefki | I don't charge for anything I do. |
| 12:25.25 | Shefki | But that's not really the point. |
| 12:25.30 | Elsia | what is the point then? |
| 12:25.49 | Shefki | Elsia: I don't think Blizzard has any place dictating if there is or isn't a secondary market for addons. |
| 12:25.53 | Shefki | To use your terminology. |
| 12:26.02 | Elsia | So it's philosophical?` |
| 12:26.04 | Shefki | I don't believe that pay addons are harmful to the game. |
| 12:26.07 | Shefki | Elsia: Of course. |
| 12:26.10 | Elsia | I see. |
| 12:26.35 | Elsia | Well philosophically I think Blizz has the right to protect their business model and they can decide what is or isn't harmful within their model. |
| 12:27.02 | Shefki | I think you'd be hard pressed to explain how paid addons are harmful. |
| 12:27.04 | Elsia | You have the right to disagree. But that's pretty much the end of that philosophical debate as I see it. |
| 12:27.20 | Shefki | But I get what you mean, you're not trying to say they are. |
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| 12:27.50 | Elsia | I don't have to explain anything. Blizz decides and they don't have to explain either. They are the platform providers. Much like the innkeeper doesn't have to explain why "no shirt, no entrance". |
| 12:28.36 | Megalon | "rule does not apply to females" |
| 12:28.37 | Elsia | Blizz may actually think that 99% of pay addons are no problem, but legally it's easiest to just get rid of for play. |
| 12:28.57 | orionshock | Personally i don't get where blizzard gets off on telling me how i can or cannot distribute addons that i have the rights to do with as i please. |
| 12:29.01 | Codayus | That's STILL a terrible analogy. And it also rests on assertions which Blizzard has never made. |
| 12:29.07 | Elsia | But this is all hypothetical, not sure why one has to ahve long debates over this. |
| 12:29.08 | Shefki | Megalon: Get it right, free drinks for females with no shirt. :P |
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| 12:29.38 | Codayus | And which I doubt would stand up if they did, which is why they've pursued copyright and EULA claims so far. |
| 12:30.02 | Shefki | I suspect it won't stay hypothetical. |
| 12:30.07 | Shefki | That one guy is turning his guide into an addon. |
| 12:30.56 | Elsia | Well blizz did win against glider on an as I understand mixed DMCA and tort claim. Certainly that could well work on a for sale addon. |
| 12:31.18 | Shefki | Elsia: Glider made for a crappy defendent. |
| 12:31.19 | orionshock | why do i have this dooming feeling that the courts and greedy people will be the end of civilization and not Armageddon as the priest tells me. |
| 12:31.32 | Codayus | Elsia: Yes, but glider is completely different than your inn example. :-) |
| 12:31.34 | Elsia | Shefki: True but now they have a precedent too. |
| 12:31.55 | quiescens | argument isn't about whether they have the right to try to enforce their rules, obviously they do |
| 12:31.59 | Shefki | Elsia: A precedent that's only applicable in that federal district court and that's on appeal. |
| 12:32.00 | Elsia | Codayus: I don't think you understood what I was trying to explain with the inn example ;) |
| 12:32.26 | Shefki | Elsia: And the appeal court it's heading too is absolutely horrible for Blizzard's case. |
| 12:32.31 | orionshock | Glider is a 3rd party executable that ran along side wow as a separate but interactive process. Addons are compiled and ran BY wow as an internal process.. very different standings there. |
| 12:32.32 | quiescens | in the end its just going to be whether they have a firm enough legal footing to stand on if they intend to take actual legal action |
| 12:32.32 | Shefki | s/too/to/ |
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| 12:33.03 | Elsia | Shefki: But this isn't a philosophical debate anymore then isn't it. You think this is practical and should be fought. |
| 12:33.23 | Shefki | Elsia: I think this is about my copyright as I explained above. |
| 12:33.24 | Elsia | Lets assume a for pay addons wins. They can write and sell addons and blizz cannot disallow that, including disabling those addons. |
| 12:33.33 | Shefki | Elsia: I don't plan to make for pay addons. |
| 12:33.46 | Shefki | But I believe the only way for Blizzard to block them is by claiming they are all derivitive works. |
| 12:33.47 | Elsia | Shefki: i'm just trying to take the arguments seriously. |
| 12:33.52 | Shefki | Which I feel is wrong. |
| 12:34.10 | Shefki | Elsia: Ohh I believe Blizzard can disable any addon they want. |
| 12:34.15 | quiescens | Blizzard will be allowd to block addons |
| 12:34.17 | quiescens | exactly |
| 12:34.24 | Shefki | I just don't believe they can make statements like "All addons must be free of charge." |
| 12:34.35 | quiescens | they can block whatever they want |
| 12:34.46 | quiescens | we're not arguing that point |
| 12:35.13 | Shefki | I don't care what they block from executing. But I'd argue if I'm selling an addon that isn't violating the TOU and the only objection is that I'm selling it. I'd damn well just avoid their block. |
| 12:35.25 | Shefki | And I'd dare them to try and stop me. |
| 12:35.39 | Elsia | Shefki: Does an inn keeper have the right to allow free music performances but no paid musicians in his inn? |
| 12:36.05 | Shefki | Elsia: I don't really think this is a very good example. |
| 12:36.22 | Shefki | For one thing I don't buy the argument that addons inhabbit wow. |
| 12:36.31 | Codayus | Elsia: Of course not. He can ban paid musicians, or indeed, anyone who has ever given a concert for pay. |
| 12:36.55 | quiescens | one of the issues would be whether blizzard can only stop people from using said addons, or if they are allowed to pursue people who made it |
| 12:37.02 | [draco] | That's not exactly grown-up behaviour and might lead to blizzard just removing functions you need for your addon and thus harming to whole addon community |
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| 12:37.07 | [draco] | but that's just my 2 cents |
| 12:37.07 | Elsia | "Addons must be free" is equivalent with "banning paid musicians" the latter is executing the rule. |
| 12:37.08 | Shefki | Blizzard doesn't own the processor, memory or electricity that's executing the addon. |
| 12:37.09 | Codayus | But he can't make people not give concerts for pay elsewhere except via threat of banning them from his inn if they do. |
| 12:37.34 | Shefki | As long as the addon isn't violating the ToU for the game, I see no cause for them to do anything about it. |
| 12:37.37 | Elsia | Shefki: You are free to run the addon outside wow. You can sell it. they cannot prevent selling addons that never run in wow |
| 12:37.44 | Elsia | Shefki: You run way off what blizz claims. |
| 12:37.52 | orionshock | tbh, i think blizzard should remove loadstring() from the api instead of hate on everyone... |
| 12:38.04 | orionshock | it would solve /some/ of the problem.. |
| 12:38.08 | Shefki | orionshock: Legitimate addons use loadstring |
| 12:38.09 | Elsia | Their intend is not to state that you cannot ever sell lua code X. They say, we do not allow sold addons for WoW. Running makes it matter. |
| 12:38.18 | Shefki | orionshock: DogTags does, PB4's Aura module does. |
| 12:38.29 | orionshock | &? |
| 12:38.30 | [draco] | Blizz doesn't want pay addons, you better believe they will find a way to get rid of them |
| 12:38.33 | orionshock | it would suck.. |
| 12:38.35 | quiescens | but it isn't their decision whether someone can sell the addon |
| 12:38.52 | quiescens | where it is their decision whether they will allow a given addon to run |
| 12:39.12 | Shefki | Elsia: If they just dropped the you can't sell addons and made the donation clause less strict. I don't think anyone would really care about this. |
| 12:39.23 | nevcairiel | They can't stop you from selling the addon, but they can say that said addon is "illegal" once you do |
| 12:39.39 | quiescens | yeah, that |
| 12:39.46 | Shefki | Elsia: Though I think the banning advertising that only the user who installed the addon is ridiculous. But I'm not really concerned with that. |
| 12:39.57 | Elsia | Shefki: You are right about that. People who want to make money of addons in this specific way care. I think that's the point. My point is that those people took a risk to begin with. |
| 12:40.23 | nevcairiel | I doubt they will ever drop the "cant sell" clause |
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| 12:40.28 | Elsia | If your business model relies on playing in Pub X and pub X changes their admittance rules, you were dependent. That's what commercializingh addons is. You are dependent. |
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| 12:40.47 | Ackis | what irks me even more is they say you can't advertise your mods, however they also add a clause where they stated you have to accept in-game advertisign from them (battle.net ToS point 15) |
| 12:41.09 | Elsia | But that wasn't blizz's fault. That author took the risk. Now the rules are changed. And it's legitimiate to make these rules. So... yeah it's tough but that's what it is. |
| 12:41.10 | Shefki | Incidentally, one could argue that Blizzard's policy is tortious interference between those that have already sold addons. |
| 12:41.28 | Elsia | That doesn't work. |
| 12:41.30 | Shefki | Especially if the addons don't violate the ToU. |
| 12:41.40 | Elsia | As said that market would not exist without blizz providing the platform |
| 12:42.01 | Elsia | You cannot sue a concert hall provider to stay open just your business continues to exist. |
| 12:42.29 | Elsia | That is the point of the Inn argument. There is a host platform here, and derivative markets. The derivative markets cannot force the platform. |
| 12:42.30 | Repo | 10big-wigs: 03Maat * r5062 Mimiron.lua: Mimiron hard mode |
| 12:42.39 | Shefki | If there's a contract between the users and the author and Blizzard is intentionally disrupting the contract, they can indeed do just that. |
| 12:42.59 | Shefki | Imagine if I had a parking lot near a concert hall. |
| 12:43.10 | Shefki | I have customers that pay for regular spaces. |
| 12:43.19 | Repo | 10big-wigs: 03Maat * r5063 / (2 files in 2 directories): Mimiron hard mode abilities |
| 12:43.25 | Shefki | The concert hall decides they don't like my parking lot becuase it competes with theirs. |
| 12:43.33 | Shefki | They start refusing to sell tickets to my customers. |
| 12:43.36 | Shefki | I can indeed sue. |
| 12:43.42 | nevcairiel | thats totally different |
| 12:43.45 | Elsia | That isn't the case here. |
| 12:43.54 | [draco] | what they said. |
| 12:43.55 | orionshock | .. Shefki that's totaly not the case.. |
| 12:43.59 | Shefki | How is that different? Their customers paid for an addon. |
| 12:44.05 | Shefki | Blizzard decided they didn't liek the addon. |
| 12:44.11 | Elsia | addons don't have independent property in a competing market to blizz. blizz creates the market place for addons. |
| 12:44.24 | Shefki | The advert supported guys could even claim that Blizz doesn't liek the compeition given teh Massive deal. |
| 12:44.32 | orionshock | right but blizzard isn't hosting an exclusive market.. |
| 12:44.37 | Codayus | Elsia: Uh, actually, that's what tortuous interference IS. |
| 12:45.03 | Shefki | Elsia: Neither does my parking lot. No concert hall no business. |
| 12:45.58 | Megalon | Shefki: so you mean you build a concert-hall-customers-parking-lot? ;p |
| 12:46.21 | Industrial | ck owned Add-ons may not include requests for donations. |
| 12:46.22 | Shefki | Megalon: Who says it's anyting other than a vacant field that I haven't found any other way to profit off. |
| 12:46.23 | Industrial | :DDDDD |
| 12:46.29 | Industrial | does a victorydance |
| 12:46.39 | Elsia | Ok let me take the concert hall example and let me try to rephrase it to see how we can look at torts in a way that's closer to the wow example. |
| 12:46.50 | Shefki | Industrial: He's not removing the donation button and in protest is adding it to more addons. |
| 12:47.01 | Megalon | Ok, so basically you mean |
| 12:47.08 | Elsia | parking lot users do not directly link to concert hall and that is a problem. they in principle do not rely on the concert hall but in practice can. |
| 12:47.09 | Megalon | you build a parking lot near a concert hall |
| 12:47.16 | Megalon | you only let concert hall customers in |
| 12:47.23 | Industrial | Shefki: I will have my victory anyway |
| 12:47.24 | Megalon | but you did not manage to get a contract with the concert hall |
| 12:47.33 | Megalon | and then you bitch if the concert hall owns you |
| 12:47.34 | Megalon | :7 |
| 12:47.36 | Industrial | (I have been saying exactly this mor years literally now) |
| 12:47.40 | Industrial | for* |
| 12:48.13 | nevcairiel | Protest is action for silly people. Talk to people, don't do silly things that have no impact whatsoever |
| 12:48.27 | nevcairiel | Like blizz cares if ckk's addons are illegal now |
| 12:48.58 | Shefki | Elsia: Refusing service to the parking lot customers is inducement to breach my parking contract with them. |
| 12:49.01 | Industrial | like talking to ck will help anything :p |
| 12:49.07 | Megalon | hm, Shefki, that's not protest, more childish attitude |
| 12:49.08 | Industrial | especially if It's me |
| 12:49.09 | Megalon | :O |
| 12:49.25 | Elsia | Shefki: Look blizzard is not refusing service to parking lot customers. |
| 12:50.33 | Shefki | Elsia: If they start banning users who are using a paid addon I think it's precisely the same. |
| 12:50.33 | nevcairiel | they are sueing the parking lot owners, not the customers |
| 12:50.33 | nevcairiel | Who said they punish users? |
| 12:50.33 | Shefki | Or if they even start blocking the addons from running. |
| 12:50.37 | Elsia | Parking lot is an independent business from the concert hall. The parking lot per se does not require the concert hall to run. It may do so by choosing the business location. |
| 12:50.41 | Elsia | Here is an example: |
| 12:50.48 | Elsia | A concert hall runs country concerts. |
| 12:50.50 | Shefki | Which would be like the concert hall putting a barricade in front of my parking lot. |
| 12:50.59 | Elsia | A business opens a country hat shop outside. |
| 12:51.04 | Shefki | Elsia: That's not a requirement for the tort. |
| 12:51.15 | Shefki | It doesn't matter that I require or don't require them. |
| 12:51.15 | Elsia | The concert hall decides to only run heavy metal concerts and bans country hats. |
| 12:51.26 | Shefki | If they're interfering with my business relationship it's a tort claim. |
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| 12:51.45 | Elsia | This is NOT a tort. The business who opened the shop bet on the environment to be in a certain way. The environment has the right to change. |
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| 12:52.00 | Shefki | Elsia: No that's a horrible example. |
| 12:52.15 | Elsia | The Inn was a good example but you don't like iot. |
| 12:52.17 | Shefki | a) The decision in your example was independent of the hat shop. It was not made to damage the hat shop. |
| 12:52.34 | Industrial | how doesnt blizzard have the right to anything, you are making (free) software for their platform |
| 12:52.43 | Codayus | Elsia: If the defendent knew of your contract, and intentionally interfered in it by changing the environment, without justification, and caused you harm, then YES it's a tort. |
| 12:53.07 | Elsia | The decision that addons have to be free wasn't made to damage addon author<->addon user contracts. It was made to protect the primary market. I.e. the decision if what addons wow wants to see run on its platform. |
| 12:53.24 | Elsia | Blizzard is NOT intentionally interfering with addon selling contracts. |
| 12:53.24 | Megalon | nice, i'll make an addon with a subscription fee, get a friend to use it |
| 12:53.27 | Shefki | Elsia: That's an assumption. |
| 12:53.32 | Megalon | AND SUE BLIZZARD FOR GAZILLIONS OF $$$$$$$ |
| 12:53.47 | Shefki | One that would have to be decided by a court. |
| 12:53.55 | Elsia | Shefki: it's also an assumption that they do... you'd have to prove it to win a tort case. |
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| 12:54.19 | Elsia | Really this argument is very strange to me. You really want to construct that blizz intentionally wants to hurt addon sellers? |
| 12:54.42 | Shefki | Elsia: How is it so hard to jump to that conclusion. |
| 12:54.49 | Shefki | People feel it is directed at Carbonite. |
| 12:54.57 | Industrial | Shefki: cause its obviously for the greater good |
| 12:55.03 | Elsia | Shefki: Go back to the inn. What business protective rights does an inn keeper have. |
| 12:55.07 | nuoHep | meh. in this whole debate the only thing I cant wrap my head around is why would an innkeeper ban for-pay concerts. it's not like he's not benefitting from them. I would argue that he's actually making more money off them as it brings 'competition' into the pub and make visitors happy |
| 12:55.10 | Industrial | and not against the few |
| 12:55.11 | Shefki | Industrial: Really, what's the greater good of disallowing addon sales? |
| 12:55.13 | Elsia | The intentional is very important for torts |
| 12:55.17 | Codayus | Actually, it's pretty hard to imagine they did this for any reason except to harm addon sellers. |
| 12:55.22 | Shefki | Name the good of that action. |
| 12:55.23 | Elsia | an inn keeper who bans shirts does not tort a shirt seller. |
| 12:55.27 | Shefki | Besides "We don't like it." |
| 12:55.33 | Industrial | Shefki: access for and by everyone to everything |
| 12:55.48 | Shefki | Industrial: Ahh the entitlement argument. |
| 12:55.58 | Shefki | Industrial: congratulations you're a spoiled ass. |
| 12:56.09 | Codayus | ...but no, I don't think an addon seller would win a suit against Bliz. |
| 12:56.12 | Industrial | thanks, I try not to use commercial software where I can. |
| 12:56.23 | Shefki | Nobody is making you use these addons. |
| 12:56.30 | Industrial | true |
| 12:56.31 | Shefki | And this policy doesn't mean they will become free. |
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| 12:56.50 | Shefki | So it doesn't serve the greater good by free stuff for everyone. |
| 12:56.54 | Elsia | Exactly, Blizz only dicates what happens in their environment. |
| 12:56.56 | Shefki | Besides, free alternatives already existed. |
| 12:57.11 | Elsia | Blizz does in fact not say you cannot sell addons. They say you cannot use sold addons in our environment. |
| 12:57.24 | Shefki | So now that argument for the greater good is tossed, what's up next? |
| 12:57.37 | Elsia | Nothing? Things are fine? |
| 12:57.38 | Shefki | Elsia: That's not what the page says. |
| 12:57.40 | Codayus | Elsia: That's entirely untrue. |
| 12:58.06 | Shefki | "add-ons must be distributed free of charge. Developers may not create "premium" versions of add-ons with additional for-pay features, charge money to download an add-on, charge for services related to the add-on, or otherwise require some form of monetary compensation to download or access an add-on. " |
| 12:58.09 | Elsia | Shefki: You can go to court and litigate out what the interpretation of that page is ;) |
| 12:58.15 | Codayus | And I'm shocked to see you say that, since that's pretty much the ONE key thing that everyone objects to. |
| 12:58.25 | Industrial | Shefki: they will become free or cease to exist, making 100% of the addons free thus serving the greater good :D |
| 12:58.34 | Shefki | Elsia: If Blizzard is using it to incite my users to breach my contract you bet I could. |
| 12:58.43 | Elsia | What makes an addon an addon? That it's actually used with wow right? |
| 12:58.56 | Shefki | Industrial: I fail to see how going from 99.9999% free to 100% free serves the good at all. |
| 12:59.21 | Industrial | that's just a matter of opinion, and you disagree (with blizzard?) |
| 12:59.23 | quiescens | What if its something that simply *can* be used with wow |
| 12:59.29 | quiescens | suppose its like, a random little game |
| 12:59.33 | nevcairiel | Carbonite just crossed the line with an ad-supported addon |
| 12:59.36 | Elsia | Shefki: Go sue. I'd be amazed if Blizz loses that one. Inn keepers around the country can no longer ban commercial bands from entering their open mic days. |
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| 12:59.40 | quiescens | would that make it more like software for an operating system? |
| 12:59.49 | Shefki | nevcairiel: Carbonite crossed what line? why is ad supported crossing a line? |
| 12:59.58 | nevcairiel | because i say so, duh |
| 13:00.14 | Codayus | Carbonite pushed it a lot further than anyone else, so that's a good guess. |
| 13:00.25 | nevcairiel | And obviously, because its never done before, now it happend, and we got that as a response |
| 13:00.26 | Codayus | Although I woudln't rule out the Massive connection, especially for clause 4. |
| 13:00.41 | Shefki | I think this all has to do with clause 15 of the battle.net agreement. |
| 13:00.49 | stolenlegacy|gho | Regarding Carbonite, I'm not even sure that encrypting lua code is even allowed... |
| 13:01.00 | Shefki | They had to stop Carbonite from selling adds becuase they sold ad rights to someone else. |
| 13:01.10 | Codayus | stolenlegacy|gho: It's not as per clause 2 of the policy, no... |
| 13:01.11 | Shefki | But their lawyers are fucktards and sold rights that they didn't entirely control. |
| 13:01.39 | Industrial | 'their lawyers are fucktards', ok I'm out have fun QQing :D |
| 13:02.03 | Elsia | Alright I think I said more about this than I care to say, lunchtime. Have fun legal bantering this some more. The horse twitches so it must be still alive! ;) |
| 13:02.04 | Codayus | Hey, if their lawyers DID sell rights they didn't have, then that's an accurate description. |
| 13:02.23 | Shefki | I freely admit this is speculation. |
| 13:03.17 | Shefki | But we know there is a contract with Massive for advertising. What it says is what we don't know. |
| 13:03.32 | Shefki | If it includes WoW or not is up in the air. If it uses the term exclusive is up in the air. |
| 13:03.37 | Codayus | Incidentally, for the closest historical example, I'd suggest various legal battles over game console APIs. |
| 13:03.38 | Shefki | But I'd be surprised if it didn't. |
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| 13:04.00 | Shefki | Codayus: Game consoles are enforced by trademark laws. |
| 13:04.04 | Codayus | For example, Nintendos bid to stop unlicensed NES games. |
| 13:04.19 | Shefki | Codayus: yes and the cartridge shape is trademarked. |
| 13:04.41 | Megalon | Codayus: but i so want to play those bible games! |
| 13:04.44 | Shefki | Whole reason Nintendo didn't move to CD's earlier. |
| 13:04.57 | Codayus | Some other issues too - in the NES case there was a copy protection chip, which had to be bypassed or reverse engineered. |
| 13:05.17 | stolenlegacy | Shefki: and they were right, seeing that there are hardly any pirated GC games, but tons of pirated wii games |
| 13:05.42 | Shefki | stolenlegacy: GC used a standard format size. |
| 13:05.47 | Codayus | Nowadays the reverse engineering would be double plus ungood under the DMCA, but I don't think there's any real case history that says Nintendo or Sony can just stop people making games for their systems. |
| 13:05.55 | Codayus | (Stop them figuring out HOW yes...) |
| 13:05.57 | Shefki | stolenlegacy: Those mini-discs existed long before Nintendo started using them. |
| 13:06.04 | stolenlegacy | really? i always thought they varied the size a bit :/ |
| 13:06.12 | Shefki | stolenlegacy: It's a standard size. |
| 13:06.15 | stolenlegacy | yeah, i know there were minidisks before |
| 13:06.54 | Matrix110 | ok seriously gimme a link to the cause of this drama :P |
| 13:06.56 | Shefki | stolenlegacy: 8cm mini-DVD |
| 13:07.16 | Megalon | Isn't it so, that the company (ms/nintendo/sony) has to approve your game with their QA so you actually get the license to release it on their system? |
| 13:07.22 | stolenlegacy | yeah, then replace GC with N64 in my above statement to make it correct :) |
| 13:07.34 | ramoz | Matrix110: http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=45448.0 |
| 13:07.40 | Matrix110 | thanks |
| 13:07.40 | stolenlegacy | Megalon: well, it says licensed by nintendo on any bought game, so probably, yes |
| 13:07.46 | Shefki | stolenlegacy: There were plenty of N64 pirated games. |
| 13:07.54 | Megalon | because as i know |
| 13:07.57 | Megalon | after the atari crash |
| 13:07.59 | Shefki | stolenlegacy: It was pretty easy to get a cart system that you could write games to. |
| 13:08.02 | Codayus | Megalon: Right, and they're VERY picky about licenses. But it's not really clear what they can do if you released one anyhow AFAIK. Dug around a little bit, but most of the noise revolves around DMCA and related issues. |
| 13:08.13 | Megalon | nintendo just did the right thing |
| 13:08.18 | Shefki | stolenlegacy: It just wasn't popular becuase passing the games around in that era was a pain. |
| 13:08.21 | Megalon | to stop the market from being flooded with games |
| 13:08.36 | *** join/#wowace stolenlegacy (n=stolenle@d86-32-24-30.cust.tele2.at) |
| 13:08.40 | Megalon | as you had to by a license to make the game |
| 13:08.41 | Megalon | AND |
| 13:08.45 | *** join/#wowace RLD_osx (n=rldempse@66-169-191-207.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com) |
| 13:08.53 | *** join/#wowace waallen (i=wallen@78.134.22.216) |
| 13:08.58 | Shefki | Codayus: Currently the console systems use a two pronged strategy: |
| 13:09.00 | Megalon | the cartridges had to be produced by nintendo |
| 13:09.02 | stolenlegacy | does anyone know why i always get "Filename encoding is corrupt" errors? |
| 13:09.08 | Shefki | a) Trademarks on teh console name, logos, etc. |
| 13:09.32 | Shefki | b) DMCA in that the games are signed and the signage system supposedly prevents copying. |
| 13:09.37 | Shefki | Which is somewhat does. |
| 13:09.40 | Codayus | Shefki: That agrees with what I know. |
| 13:09.47 | *** join/#wowace RLD_osx (n=rldempse@66-169-191-207.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com) |
| 13:10.00 | Shefki | In order to ship a working game you have to make a circumvention device for the copyright control mechanism. |
| 13:10.15 | Shefki | However, I'd argue that if anyone actually fought it they'd lose. |
| 13:10.25 | Shefki | Becuase there are specific exceptions for interop. |
| 13:10.38 | Shefki | And the copyright material would be the person they'd be trying to stop from shipping the game. |
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| 13:10.39 | Codayus | But that implies that Sony can't otherwise control people writing Playstation games simply by saying "our system, our API, our rules". |
| 13:10.48 | Shefki | Mostly I think the DMCA stuff is a scare-tactic. |
| 13:10.50 | Codayus | And THAT'sS relevant for the WoW example. :-) |
| 13:10.53 | Megalon | Codayus: yea, nintendo always was kind of ahead with their consoles |
| 13:11.05 | Matrix110 | mhhh I dont really see anything wrong with what Blizzard posted there tbh |
| 13:11.06 | Megalon | they seem to just do the right thing at the right times |
| 13:11.19 | Shefki | Codayus: Just becuase a big corporation can parade around and scare people into not doing something with threatening letters doesn't mean they'd win. |
| 13:11.35 | Shefki | Codayus: The only reaosn the issue hasn't been tested is the people capable of making a viable game can easily license the console. |
| 13:11.44 | Codayus | *nod* |
| 13:11.58 | *** join/#wowace Sirow (n=Sirow001@p57A4C9E6.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 13:11.58 | Shefki | Codayus: And anyone that can afford to fight Sony, Nintendo, etc... can afford the license. |
| 13:12.06 | Shefki | So why bother. |
| 13:12.16 | Shefki | And it's not like licensing is without benefits. |
| 13:12.31 | Shefki | You get an SDK, support from the manufacturer, in some cases even marketing money. |
| 13:12.44 | Matrix110 | or they do the marketing for you |
| 13:12.50 | Shefki | *nod* |
| 13:12.59 | Fisker- | we got any koreans btw? |
| 13:13.01 | Shefki | So basically, there's no incentive for someone to fight it. |
| 13:13.08 | Codayus | Where I was going with this is I think Elsia's platform argument boiled downto saying that since Bliz owns the API they can control what people do with it |
| 13:13.19 | Shefki | Codayus: It does. |
| 13:13.34 | Shefki | And it's fundamentally flawed because I don't believe there's any valid case law to support it. |
| 13:13.47 | Shefki | In fact API wise there's a lot to contradict it. |
| 13:13.48 | Codayus | But if it worked there it would work for consoles, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't. |
| 13:14.06 | Shefki | The only complication for WoW is that WoW is not just an API but also a network service. |
| 13:14.13 | Codayus | *nod* |
| 13:14.25 | Shefki | Something that is very easy for courts to screw up. |
| 13:14.30 | Shefki | Like they did with Glider. |
| 13:14.33 | Megalon | that's why they have baddons.wcf! |
| 13:15.05 | Shefki | And once again I'm back to explaining why I take issue with the first clause. |
| 13:15.25 | Matrix110 | Why? |
| 13:15.37 | Shefki | If Blizzard believes they can enforce that I can't sell an addon then they believe that my addons are derivitive works. |
| 13:15.50 | *** join/#wowace RLD_osx (n=rldempse@66.169.191.207) |
| 13:15.51 | nevcairiel | You know, you could be way more productive just coding addons then trying to convince people of your believes for 10 hours =) |
| 13:16.24 | Shefki | nevcairiel: This policy has improved the quality of addons drastically so far. |
| 13:16.24 | Megalon | i like the religous approach of addon coding |
| 13:16.25 | nevcairiel | They can't enforce you not selling them, but they can enforce any sold addon being "illegal" |
| 13:16.26 | Matrix110 | Nobody wants you to stop selling your AddOns but if you are doing it Blizzard has every right in the world to disable your AddOn from working :P |
| 13:16.30 | Megalon | mine are all empty files |
| 13:16.34 | Megalon | you have to BELIEVE |
| 13:16.41 | Megalon | in the functionality! |
| 13:17.13 | nevcairiel | And since most addon pages are official fan sites, they can force them to not distribute them too |
| 13:17.21 | nevcairiel | or lose their status |
| 13:17.55 | Ackis | nevcairiel: addon distribution sites = charge for premium/upgraded status = having a paid version of the mod? |
| 13:17.55 | Shefki | Honestly at this point I see one of three things happen: |
| 13:18.08 | Shefki | a) Blizzard explains their position and I'm satisified with it. |
| 13:18.15 | Shefki | b) I say screw it and find something else to do with my time. |
| 13:18.25 | nevcairiel | Ackis: if you pay for curse.com, you don't get better addons |
| 13:18.26 | Shefki | c) I go out of my way to make a point. |
| 13:18.32 | Codayus | Incidentally, there's some DKP sites - often combined with guild website hosting services - which charge and have an addon to gather/display information in game... |
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| 13:18.49 | Matrix110 | Ackis nah Curse and WoWI are not affected by it as you can get the Addon without paying (just a bit harder maybe because you cant lets say 1click update) |
| 13:18.50 | Shefki | Codayus: Never thought about that, interesting point. |
| 13:19.05 | Codayus | And I think WWS has an addon that turns logging on and off when your in a raid - again, they charge. |
| 13:19.11 | Ackis | nevcairiel: it never said anything about the quality of the addons, you just paid for a better delivery mechanism (auto-update, no ads, etc)... I think you could extend this ToS to the UI sites however /shrug |
| 13:19.16 | Shefki | Matrix110: Ohh god don't say 1 click, Amazon will be joining us any moment. |
| 13:19.28 | Matrix110 | :D |
| 13:19.31 | nevcairiel | Ackis: they talk about premium addons, not premium download services |
| 13:19.53 | Shefki | nevcairiel: In general I agree with you but it does say any services. |
| 13:20.02 | Matrix110 | They are disallowing total paid services though, so if curse would charge everyone then it would be affected by the passage |
| 13:20.12 | Shefki | charge for services related to the add-on |
| 13:20.24 | Shefki | Which is a huge catch all. |
| 13:20.32 | Shefki | I don't think they mean curse client. |
| 13:20.34 | *** join/#wowace RLD_osx (n=rldempse@66-169-191-207.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com) |
| 13:20.42 | Codayus | Heh, what about curse profiler? :-) It's kind of related to the premium curse service... |
| 13:20.44 | nevcairiel | If a page would charge everyone for downloading addons and not offering anything for free .. yes it would fall under that |
| 13:20.45 | Matrix110 | They mean support with it I think |
| 13:20.56 | nevcairiel | but charging for hiding of the ads .. why not |
| 13:21.21 | Shefki | nevcairiel: It's a pretty gray area in their language. |
| 13:21.28 | Matrix110 | its supposed to |
| 13:21.31 | nevcairiel | Shefki: all those texts are always gray |
| 13:21.38 | Ackis | s/gray/grey/ |
| 13:21.42 | nevcairiel | You can choose to interpret it black or white |
| 13:21.44 | Matrix110 | so they dont need to change it every minute because someone found a hole in it :P |
| 13:21.56 | Shefki | Whichever way you prefer to spell that color between white and black. |
| 13:21.56 | Matrix110 | Unlike the german law system *cough* |
| 13:23.35 | *** join/#wowace Dark_Elf (n=Dark_Elf@ip124.net253.mw.net) |
| 13:24.21 | Matrix110 | And the service thing is that you cant for example offer "support" (but free download) for an AddOn by providing a "guide"(let it be a password) so the addon works ingame, that might not prevent people in here from using the addon but people are paying for Downloading FIREFOX and other freeware programms so there will be some people stupid enough to get it :P |
| 13:24.34 | nevcairiel | Any policy/license text can always be interpreted in a pretty dark way |
| 13:24.56 | nevcairiel | If you read the ToU or ToS (not sure which it was), it says they can ban your account without tellin you why |
| 13:25.40 | nevcairiel | obviously it would harm their business, so they don't use it randomly for fun |
| 13:25.41 | Matrix110 | well thats a legal term to prvent sueing basically |
| 13:25.52 | Matrix110 | Everyone does it like that |
| 13:27.37 | Repo | 10torta: 03Quezacolt * r32 / (4 files in 2 directories): - Minor bug fixes and UI text updates |
| 13:27.38 | Matrix110 | Same as saying "blabla is subject to change" so noone goes crazy when you change anything |
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| 13:28.12 | *** mode/#wowace [+v WobWork] by ChanServ |
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| 13:28.28 | *** mode/#wowace [+v Wobin] by ChanServ |
| 13:28.57 | nevcairiel | The same can be said about addons, if they start banning users for using an "illegal" addon, it'll hurt them pretty bad. But they could in theory, and this thought is usually enough for alot of people not using the addons anymore |
| 13:29.06 | nevcairiel | And i consider this to be their main intent. |
| 13:30.31 | Repo | 10torta: 03Quezacolt 04v0.2.32 Beta * r33 : (Message trimmed by 2 lines) |
| 13:30.34 | Repo | - Minor bug fixes |
| 13:30.37 | Repo | Changes that were supposed to be in the last release's changelog: |
| 13:30.40 | Repo | - Implemented Search |
| 13:30.43 | Repo | - Added LDB support - You can make it show up in FuBar using Broker2FuBar. |
| 13:31.00 | Shefki | I don't much care what their intent is. I care if they're trying to trample my copyrights by stomping around as a big corporation. |
| 13:31.26 | MoonWolf | nevcairiel, they have been able to do that since the changes in 2.0 |
| 13:31.54 | Shefki | But I agree with MoonWolf they've been able to turn off addons at will for a while now. |
| 13:33.19 | nevcairiel | I know |
| 13:33.25 | *** join/#wowace Sliker_Hawk (n=SlikerHa@5addec56.bb.sky.com) |
| 13:33.38 | nevcairiel | But they never explicitly said what was not allowed, unless it was an obvious exploit |
| 13:35.03 | Matrix110 | Shefki they respect your copyright, as I dont see anything that limits it |
| 13:35.23 | Shefki | Matrix110: See above. I'm done explaining it repeatedly. |
| 13:36.11 | nevcairiel | After hours of discussions, he came to the conclusion that blizzard wants to claim that they own the addons and thus can limit distribution |
| 13:36.11 | Fisker- | heh Matrix110 |
| 13:36.20 | Fisker- | it's one thing to download firefox, but also pay for it |
| 13:36.20 | Fisker- | hoho |
| 13:36.26 | nevcairiel | Although i would rather interpret it that they just call any addon illegal that is sold |
| 13:36.44 | Matrix110 | Fisker- there are pages where you can really "buy" firefox its awesome |
| 13:36.44 | Matrix110 | :D |
| 13:37.29 | Dark_Elf | damn guess carbonite will be done |
| 13:38.03 | Fisker- | i should do that |
| 13:38.16 | Matrix110 | There is not any passage that limits distribution of your addon |
| 13:39.39 | Dark_Elf | nothing says there cant be a statement on a site that u cant take money it just cant be in the addon |
| 13:40.51 | nevcairiel | Dark_Elf: you can take donations, yes |
| 13:40.56 | nevcairiel | but you can't charge for the addon |
| 13:41.20 | Matrix110 | you can without any problem |
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| 13:41.40 | Matrix110 | But then Blizzard will disallow usage within WoW |
| 13:41.41 | Matrix110 | easy |
| 13:42.49 | Shefki | Disabling an addon will be like nuclear war... |
| 13:43.00 | Shefki | Once they start that crap they'll never end it. |
| 13:43.15 | Dark_Elf | damn looks like this will be the end of some good addons then :( |
| 13:43.29 | Shefki | They'll be wasting as much time trying to block addons as record companies waste trying to get their songs off the net. |
| 13:43.47 | Matrix110 | Well you cant just stand around doing nothing |
| 13:44.06 | Shefki | Matrix110: You can wave a threat around and hope nobody calls your bluff. |
| 13:44.23 | Matrix110 | Thats what they are doing atm |
| 13:44.54 | Shefki | I know and I hope someone calls their bluff with something that doesn't carry the cheating brand that Glider had. |
| 13:44.55 | *** join/#wowace Phale_ (n=jorisgoo@91.180.55.190) |
| 13:45.25 | Phale_ | could anyone help me out? i'm have a really small screenshot of a timer and i don't know which one it is |
| 13:45.26 | Phale_ | http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/3872/afbeelding47.png |
| 13:45.38 | Matrix110 | Well if Carbonite keeps selling and Questhelper keeps the donation stuff inside you can expect action in some time |
| 13:46.03 | Matrix110 | Phale_ its impossible to see anything on it :P |
| 13:46.13 | Matrix110 | Cloak of Shadows 0.X |
| 13:46.22 | Phale_ | 0.6 i think :D |
| 13:46.23 | Dark_Elf | i use the ad supported version of carbonite i wonder if its legal? |
| 13:46.40 | Shefki | Dark_Elf: I'd avoid the term legal. |
| 13:46.54 | Shefki | Just becuase Blizzard says "we don't like something" doesn't make it illegal. |
| 13:47.04 | nevcairiel | ingame ads are disallowed too |
| 13:47.07 | Phale_ | gonna try and screw up my ui scale to get a decent screenie |
| 13:47.13 | Shefki | I really despise when people use the terms legal/illegal baed on contract clauses. |
| 13:47.20 | Matrix110 | Its totally legal but Blizzard has the right to disable it inside WoW if its violating their policy |
| 13:47.21 | nevcairiel | how did the ingame ads in carbonite even look? |
| 13:47.40 | Shefki | No idea I don't use it. |
| 13:47.42 | Dark_Elf | sorry didnt know what term to use, i love the addon though |
| 13:47.42 | nevcairiel | really annoying that would cause them to go all policy on us? |
| 13:47.50 | *** join/#wowace ckknight (n=ckknight@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/CurseStaff/CurseForge/ckknight) |
| 13:47.50 | *** mode/#wowace [+o ckknight] by ChanServ |
| 13:47.51 | Shefki | I wonder how much money the Carbonite people are making. |
| 13:48.05 | Matrix110 | Enough atleast |
| 13:48.13 | Matrix110 | if you read about how many people use it |
| 13:48.22 | Shefki | Froom what people who use it say it's a well maintained addon. |
| 13:48.24 | Dark_Elf | they came up random on the screen one was a blank ad with their email address |
| 13:48.27 | Shefki | So yeah I'd guess they do pretty well. |
| 13:48.41 | nevcairiel | Dark_Elf: so really annoying? |
| 13:48.44 | nevcairiel | in the middle of game play? |
| 13:48.49 | Matrix110 | I dont think they swim in money though :P |
| 13:48.54 | Shefki | nevcairiel: Someone was saying it's at loot time. |
| 13:49.05 | Dark_Elf | its annoying enuff to slow the game down to halt when it opens the ad |
| 13:49.07 | Shefki | You loot a mob and get an addon if it's been a certain amount of time. |
| 13:49.21 | nevcairiel | that sounds like a good enough reason to want to ban them |
| 13:49.23 | nevcairiel | imho |
| 13:49.38 | Shefki | nevcairiel: Why? If users don't like it don't use the addon. Duhh. |
| 13:49.41 | Dark_Elf | really bad when u r in combat lol |
| 13:49.43 | Groktar | devours Shefki's soul |
| 13:49.51 | Groktar | devours Dark_Elf's soul next |
| 13:49.59 | Dark_Elf | sorry |
| 13:50.01 | Groktar | thinks Dark_Elf's soul is tastier |
| 13:50.02 | Shefki | nevcairiel: I think we should ban your addons because one time they crashed my wow client in the middle of a boss fight. :P |
| 13:50.05 | nevcairiel | Shefki: of course, but its still silly =P |
| 13:50.15 | Vangual | so you shouldn't have the addon AND shouldn't loot incombat :P |
| 13:50.16 | Groktar | omg that's nevcairiel's fault? |
| 13:50.25 | Shefki | nevcairiel: It's shitty behavior, but if they want to treat their users like crap that's really their problem. |
| 13:50.31 | Groktar | nevcairiel -> raid wiper |
| 13:50.34 | Matrix110 | Shefki Blizzard simply doesnt want that in their game so they can disallow it |
| 13:50.41 | Shefki | nevcairiel cost me Immortal! |
| 13:50.55 | nevcairiel | Shefki: intentional, too |
| 13:51.07 | Shefki | I bet. |
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| 14:07.04 | kagaro | i lot of this donation arguments stem from the fact people are using automatied downloads to get stuff so more people dont see the link/button whatever .. is that a valid assumption? |
| 14:08.46 | BWMerlin | well i know one author blamed wowmatrix for the exact reason |
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| 14:24.30 | selckin | maybe they host it themself and pay for the bandwidth too then |
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| 14:40.22 | Kaelten | G'morning |
| 14:42.20 | Hjalte | Good morning America |
| 14:45.05 | nevcairiel | morning Kaelten |
| 14:45.11 | *** join/#wowace Skellum (i=Skellum@68.95.73.214) |
| 14:45.29 | Skellum | So question, how does blizzards declairation affect you guys? |
| 14:45.39 | Kaelten | hrm? |
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| 14:45.40 | nevcairiel | not at all |
| 14:45.58 | nevcairiel | How would it? |
| 14:46.25 | sb|work | nevcairiel cant hide his backdoors in BT4 anymore.. :/ |
| 14:46.25 | Skellum | Was just curious |
| 14:46.30 | Skellum | Heh |
| 14:46.46 | nevcairiel | I wouldn't even hide them, i would just rely on people being to lazy to look :) |
| 14:46.56 | Skellum | And 9:10 times that would work |
| 14:48.10 | syeren | http://www.ninja2009.com/ |
| 14:48.19 | syeren | New NIN for those of you who are fans :p |
| 14:48.19 | Fisker- | Kaelten |
| 14:48.21 | Fisker- | my motherfucker |
| 14:48.25 | Fisker- | oh wait |
| 14:48.33 | syeren | Or rather, Studio versions of Non-Entity and Not So Pretty Now! |
| 14:48.45 | Fisker- | Curse client suddenly reports i have the addon "Tournament Realm Spy" |
| 14:48.50 | Fisker- | but i don't |
| 14:49.01 | Fisker- | and it links Ace3 as it's mod folder |
| 14:49.06 | Fisker- | (Ace3 is there as well) |
| 14:49.17 | nevcairiel | o.O |
| 14:49.25 | nevcairiel | @project Tournament Realm Spy |
| 14:49.26 | Repo | nevcairiel: No project found that matches 'tournament' |
| 14:49.34 | Kaelten | Fisker-: that's odd |
| 14:49.35 | nevcairiel | stupid bot, search smarter |
| 14:49.37 | Fisker- | owned @ spaces Repo |
| 14:49.41 | Kalroth | lol |
| 14:49.45 | Fisker- | @project Tournament-Realm-Spy |
| 14:49.47 | Repo | Fisker-: http://wow.curseforge.com/projects/tournament-realm-spy/. Tournament Realm Spy. Game: WoW. Kane49 (Manager/Author). Updated: 2 days ago |
| 14:49.50 | Fisker- | fucking win |
| 14:49.57 | Kaelten | is the only matching folder ace3? |
| 14:50.03 | Fisker- | yep |
| 14:50.11 | nevcairiel | Kaelten: i know why .. the addon is full of fail |
| 14:50.27 | nevcairiel | the zip has the files in \ not in a sub dir |
| 14:50.30 | Kalroth | to the failboat! |
| 14:50.32 | Kaelten | wtf |
| 14:50.37 | Fisker- | i'm on a boat |
| 14:50.40 | Fisker- | on a failboat |
| 14:50.53 | nevcairiel | Kaelten: and Ackis approved it :D |
| 14:50.54 | nevcairiel | ~lart Ackis |
| 14:50.54 | purl | strangles Ackis with a 9-pole serial cable |
| 14:51.07 | Fisker- | lets sue him! |
| 14:51.37 | nevcairiel | Curious how it didnt pick it up as invalid layout |
| 14:51.42 | *** join/#wowace RLD_osx (n=rldempse@66-169-191-207.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com) |
| 14:52.11 | nevcairiel | Kaelten: as his libs dir contains like all of Ace3, the CC probably matched that |
| 14:52.46 | Fisker- | But shouldn't it only show up if i had installed it then? |
| 15:03.20 | Zhinjio | G"morning. |
| 15:06.57 | *** join/#wowace Wizardling (i=Durandal@ip-118-90-38-172.xdsl.xnet.co.nz) |
| 15:09.09 | *** join/#wowace yleaf (n=yleaf@116.235.120.240) |
| 15:10.14 | Repo | 10boss-notes: 03Bethink * r35 PersonalNotes/: Created sub-folder for Personal Notes module |
| 15:12.15 | *** join/#wowace RLD_osx (n=rldempse@66-169-191-207.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com) |
| 15:12.19 | *** join/#wowace taleden (n=atfrase@user-38q41i6.cable.mindspring.com) |
| 15:12.26 | Repo | 10boss-notes: 03Bethink * r36 / (2 files in 2 directories): Modularization |
| 15:12.39 | Repo | 10boss-notes: 03Bethink * r37 / (2 files in 2 directories): Modularization |
| 15:13.11 | Repo | 10boss-notes: 03Bethink * r38 / (2 files in 2 directories): Modularization |
| 15:14.59 | *** join/#wowace spode (i=spode@213.21.89.60) |
| 15:18.30 | *** join/#wowace [w]sun (n=sun@ARouen-256-1-106-17.w90-51.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 15:20.02 | Repo | 10boss-notes: 03Bethink * r39 / (2 files in 2 directories): Modularization |
| 15:20.15 | nevcairiel | ~lart Bethink |
| 15:20.15 | purl | blasts Bethink to oblivion with a kamehameha wave |
| 15:20.15 | Repo | 10boss-notes: 03Bethink * r40 / (2 files in 2 directories): Modularization |
| 15:20.31 | Repo | 10boss-notes: 03Bethink * r41 / (2 files in 2 directories): Modularization |
| 15:21.34 | *** join/#wowace Axodious (n=0mt@modemcable217.254-70-69.mc.videotron.ca) |
| 15:21.53 | *** join/#wowace Odlaw (n=ozzy@c-98-245-39-78.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 15:23.17 | taleden | well, guess that was inevitable |
| 15:23.20 | taleden | the addon thing hit slashdot |
| 15:28.10 | EvilJohn | yeah |
| 15:28.12 | EvilJohn | i see it |
| 15:34.30 | Repo | 10kg-panels: 03kagaro * r309 / (2 files in 2 directories): |
| 15:34.33 | Repo | kgPanels: new config options to direct set textcoord on your background texture. UNTESTED and dry coded. compiled with luac |
| 15:40.06 | Fisker- | so Kaelten |
| 15:40.07 | Fisker- | how goes? |
| 15:40.49 | Repo | 10talented: 03jerry * r465 / (6 files in 2 directories): |
| 15:40.52 | Repo | Add support for Paladin tree (which has an inactive talent tab 2 index 9) |
| 15:40.55 | Repo | Add support for dual spec inspection. The API allows that, although the default UI only shows the active one. |
| 15:41.00 | *** join/#wowace digmouse (n=chatzill@58.20.47.166) |
| 15:42.32 | Fisker- | dun dun dun |
| 15:43.12 | *** join/#wowace RLD_osx (n=rldempse@66.169.191.207) |
| 15:43.34 | Repo | 10talented_data: 03jerry * r205 scripts (2 files in 1 directory): Update scripts to latest build format |
| 15:52.34 | Kaelten | hrm? |
| 15:52.39 | Kaelten | I'm fine |
| 15:53.07 | *** join/#wowace MoonWolf (n=MoonWolf@dhcp-077-250-125-249.chello.nl) |
| 15:53.08 | *** mode/#wowace [+o MoonWolf] by ChanServ |
| 15:56.20 | Fisker- | Translate: What are you going to do about that addon? :P |
| 15:57.59 | *** join/#wowace Sirow (n=Sirow001@p57A4E601.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 16:01.46 | *** join/#wowace Lukian (i=lukian@203.171.70.21.static.rev.aanet.com.au) |
| 16:02.06 | nevcairiel | i deleted the file |
| 16:10.53 | *** part/#wowace CrazyBenny_ (n=s_m@actplus.cust.sloane.cz) |
| 16:12.44 | *** join/#wowace Josh_Borke (n=jk275@WoWUIDev/WoWInterface/LegoBlock/joshborke) |
| 16:13.52 | *** join/#wowace Druidicbeast (n=chatzill@pool-173-73-8-207.washdc.fios.verizon.net) |
| 16:17.19 | Repo | 10talented: 03jerry * r466 / (4 files in 2 directories): |
| 16:17.22 | Repo | Add a macro command to apply a template. (/talented apply <template>) |
| 16:26.26 | Ironhand | is there a way to get messages from BigWigs to be sent to a chatframe other than the default one? |
| 16:27.27 | Anaral | I'm downloading all my addons after running a repair. And CurseClient seems to have downloaded an addon called 'Tournament Realm Spy'. Why??? |
| 16:27.45 | syeren | BECAUSE YOU'RE A SPY? |
| 16:27.58 | Anaral | Am not! |
| 16:27.59 | Vangual | aha! |
| 16:28.05 | syeren | Apparently the file is structed badly, and thus everyone is downloading it somehow :P |
| 16:28.30 | Wobin | Anaral: hehe |
| 16:28.35 | Wobin | cause for some reason, it's Ace |
| 16:28.36 | Anaral | Let me guess, when they download Ace3? |
| 16:28.41 | Wobin | or ace3 |
| 16:28.42 | *** part/#wowace Josh_Borke (n=jk275@WoWUIDev/WoWInterface/LegoBlock/joshborke) |
| 16:28.53 | Wobin | Someone named it Tournament Spy or something |
| 16:29.02 | *** join/#wowace RLD_osx (n=rldempse@66-169-191-207.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com) |
| 16:29.09 | Wobin | Same issue with DevTools, I think |
| 16:29.22 | *** join/#wowace Daedals (n=teemu@dsl-kpobrasgw1-feb8fb00-232.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 16:29.26 | nevcairiel | I deleted the tournament spy file, but i dunno if the CC still picks it up |
| 16:29.29 | *** join/#wowace RLD_osx (n=rldempse@66-169-191-207.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com) |
| 16:29.33 | nevcairiel | or if Kaelten should remove it serverside |
| 16:29.48 | Anaral | DevTools isn't availble via the CC |
| 16:29.49 | Fisker- | it's still in my list |
| 16:29.54 | Fisker- | and i don't dare delete it etc. |
| 16:30.03 | Wobin | Anaral: There was, apparently a Curse addon with that name |
| 16:30.11 | Wobin | which overwrote the copy downloaded from Wowi |
| 16:30.30 | Anaral | Fisker-: Why not delete it? |
| 16:30.43 | Fisker- | afraid it'll remove ace3! |
| 16:30.57 | Fisker- | it didn't |
| 16:30.57 | Fisker- | wee |
| 16:31.10 | Fisker- | but it's still there :( |
| 16:31.50 | Kaelten | Fisker-: yeah... I'm going to have to get it fixed otherwise |
| 16:32.06 | nevcairiel | lart ackis for letting it through :) |
| 16:33.52 | Fisker- | i'm spearheading the lawsuit against ARL |
| 16:34.42 | *** join/#wowace obe (i=ad20326e@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-0171c925aad36f47) |
| 16:35.14 | obe | so, what are people saying about the new addon ToS? |
| 16:35.50 | Wobin | everything and nothing |
| 16:35.54 | Axodious | ^ |
| 16:36.03 | obe | fair enough |
| 16:36.15 | Repo | 10talented: 03jerry * r467 / (3 files in 2 directories): |
| 16:36.15 | Anaral | obe Same as you read on the forums, blogs, and ingame. |
| 16:36.18 | Repo | Make sure the CHARACTER_POINTS_CHANGED event is caught even if the Talented window is not open so that template application via "/talented apply <template>" works |
| 16:36.28 | *** join/#wowace Dashkal (n=dashkal@WoWUIDev/Nexus/dashkal) |
| 16:37.30 | obe | Anaral I'm just beginning to read into it. I just found out this morning then went for a drive |
| 16:37.35 | obe | so I'm settling in now |
| 16:37.43 | Anaral | Ah |
| 16:37.45 | Ironhand | is there a way to route messages that are sent to the Chat sink to a non-default chat frame? |
| 16:38.21 | nevcairiel | chat-sink? |
| 16:38.21 | Wobin | not easily |
| 16:38.39 | Wobin | as most messages sent to the chat window are sent specifically to a specific chat window |
| 16:38.50 | Wobin | s/most/all/ |
| 16:39.09 | Ironhand | hmmmm... see above, I'm trying to get BigWigs messages in another window than General... |
| 16:39.51 | obe | The only real addon that I could think of that expressly violates it is carbonite |
| 16:39.59 | obe | since its encrypted, and pay for |
| 16:40.20 | *** join/#wowace Sliker_Hawk (n=SlikerHa@5addec56.bb.sky.com) |
| 16:41.41 | nevcairiel | we all assume it was a response to the latest carbonite developments, ad supported, etc |
| 16:42.46 | Axodious | ^ |
| 16:42.47 | Axodious | lol |
| 16:43.04 | obe | the non-pay version has ads in game? |
| 16:43.34 | Shadowed | BangCraft does as well, but it doesn't show ads |
| 16:44.14 | nevcairiel | the bang addons were so easy to unlock in game |
| 16:44.17 | nevcairiel | wasnt even funny anymore |
| 16:44.52 | Repo | 10prat-3-0: 03sylvanaar * r250 modules/PopupMessage.lua: |
| 16:44.55 | Repo | try to address #101, may have had a logic bug with the DEBUG flag |
| 16:45.50 | Shadowed | I'm sure Carbonite isn't that hard either |
| 16:46.23 | Shadowed | BangCraft took me about an hour, Carbonite would probably be two if at that |
| 16:46.50 | nevcairiel | bang used a very simple obfuscationg, the source itself wasn't even changed, it was only coded xor |
| 16:47.00 | nevcairiel | carbonite totally obfuscates the code |
| 16:47.01 | nevcairiel | iirc |
| 16:47.08 | Shadowed | so three then |
| 16:47.40 | digmouse | carbonite wont sell a copy without obfuscations :P |
| 16:48.01 | Shadowed | think I spent around three hours unonbsfucating the preform AV mod, and I'm sure Carbonite has the ad stuff in a single file |
| 16:48.32 | Kalroth | preform ftw, we need more Horde only addons! |
| 16:48.33 | *** join/#wowace Daedals (n=Daedals@dsl-kpobrasgw1-feb8fb00-232.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 16:49.13 | Kalroth | nevcairiel: Update Bartender so alliance players see their buttons upside down! |
| 16:49.28 | Kalroth | (it would also generate some fun bug reports) |
| 16:49.30 | Shadowed | I wonder if the ads are an unnamed frame |
| 16:50.33 | Wobin | Shadowed: Warden addon for WoW =P |
| 16:50.33 | Shadowed | hah |
| 16:52.56 | Vangual | PrisonMole |
| 16:54.35 | obe | Some people on the mmo-champion thread are insinuating that the curse-downloader may be affected |
| 16:55.00 | Axodious | thats because those people dont READ |
| 16:55.07 | obe | fair enough |
| 16:55.08 | Axodious | they think the advert thing isnt just in game |
| 16:55.16 | obe | i'll shut up now |
| 16:55.16 | obe | lol |
| 16:55.40 | syeren | Dude, it's the mmo-champion forums. |
| 16:55.45 | syeren | Those people are like official forum people :< |
| 16:55.49 | Dashkal | ^^^ |
| 16:57.24 | obe | yeah i know, but i couldn't find a thread on the wowace forums |
| 16:57.33 | obe | and i don't know where else to look |
| 16:58.18 | *** join/#wowace spode (i=spode@213.21.89.60) |
| 16:58.40 | Repo | 10prat-3-0: 03sylvanaar * r251 services/classcolor.lua: Implement CUSTOM_CLASS_COLORS #99 |
| 16:59.43 | *** join/#wowace sylvanaar (n=sylvanaa@unaffiliated/sylvanaar) |
| 17:04.23 | Skellum | Oh good god... http://pics.nase-bohren.de/manly.jpg |
| 17:05.05 | *** join/#wowace Castigo (n=castigo@host81-159-16-157.range81-159.btcentralplus.com) |
| 17:05.11 | Castigo | hi guys |
| 17:05.19 | Castigo | is there anyone expert on combat logs online? |
| 17:05.36 | Zhinjio | ask your question, we'll see if we can help |
| 17:05.56 | Castigo | i would like to know |
| 17:06.00 | Castigo | how to associate pets to owner |
| 17:06.04 | Castigo | reading wowcombatlog.txt |
| 17:06.12 | Castigo | 'cause i can't find the information anywhere |
| 17:06.15 | Castigo | neither i canfigure it out mysel |
| 17:06.17 | Castigo | *myself |
| 17:07.32 | Castigo | totem seems to be considered "pets" on combat log too |
| 17:07.36 | Castigo | which is "all fine" really |
| 17:07.44 | Castigo | but i can't "associate" to sum the damages up |
| 17:07.55 | Castigo | anyone has ideas/kknows? |
| 17:07.58 | nevcairiel | You would check the SUMMON_PET events and see who casted them |
| 17:08.49 | Castigo | nevca what if an hunter or a warlock |
| 17:08.55 | Castigo | comes to raid with a pet already summoned |
| 17:09.05 | Castigo | i wouldn't find that event or i would anyway? |
| 17:09.11 | nevcairiel | your screwed then |
| 17:09.35 | Wobin | you won't be able to see that information without access ingame |
| 17:09.52 | Castigo | well if wws does it |
| 17:09.54 | Castigo | means there is a way tbh |
| 17:10.03 | Castigo | and wws doesn't have access ingame |
| 17:10.05 | *** join/#wowace Hirsute (n=Rupert@WoWUIDev/Norganna/Developer/Hirsute) |
| 17:10.19 | Fisker- | btw Wobin |
| 17:10.25 | Fisker- | how is mr. plow coming along |
| 17:10.29 | Castigo | SPELL_SUMMON event works with shaman's totems that is |
| 17:10.34 | Fisker- | or did you quit because you can't live of it anymore? |
| 17:10.36 | Fisker- | :3 |
| 17:10.39 | Wobin | this ^ |
| 17:10.43 | Fisker- | :( |
| 17:11.54 | Wobin | Castigo: You could probably guess which pet belongs to which player |
| 17:12.00 | Wobin | by the spells involved |
| 17:12.02 | Wobin | like soul link |
| 17:12.02 | Zyndrome | my install of Mr.Plow saw it's shift+delete fate last night, when I figured that I never actually use it, just nice-to-have :p |
| 17:12.20 | Zyndrome | its |
| 17:12.50 | Wobin | or Spirit Bond for hunters |
| 17:12.50 | Axodious | whats mr plow? |
| 17:12.59 | Fisker- | inventory "sorter" |
| 17:13.08 | Axodious | restacks stuff etc? |
| 17:13.13 | Castigo | Wobin well it's not "guaranteed" that a lock uses soul link |
| 17:13.14 | Fisker- | Mr. Plow could be optimized, there's an addon that sorts the bags in like 2 seconds |
| 17:13.17 | Castigo | during a raid |
| 17:13.17 | obe | Mr. Plow was the name Homer gave to his plow service in the Simpsons |
| 17:13.17 | Zyndrome | "defragments" the bags |
| 17:13.23 | Fisker- | yeah |
| 17:13.26 | Castigo | i'm sure there is a way with the GUID or with the flags |
| 17:13.29 | Castigo | to sort that issue out |
| 17:13.31 | Wobin | Castigo: no, but that's one method of linking |
| 17:13.41 | Skellum | Anyone know how PB4 is coming along? |
| 17:13.42 | Matrix110 | just get Solid State Bags they dont need defragmentation! |
| 17:13.47 | Castigo | i just don't know where to gather that information |
| 17:13.51 | Fisker- | lawl Matrix110 |
| 17:13.51 | Fisker- | :3 |
| 17:13.53 | Wobin | Fisker-: Mr Plow, the repo version does do that |
| 17:13.59 | nevcairiel | without a summoning event, i don't think you can associate them |
| 17:14.00 | Fisker- | ? |
| 17:14.02 | *** join/#wowace RLD_osx (n=rldempse@66-169-191-207.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com) |
| 17:14.06 | Fisker- | when was that? |
| 17:14.09 | Wobin | It just has an unfortunate issue where the last usecase fails to work |
| 17:14.23 | Wobin | about half a year back |
| 17:14.29 | Fisker- | i am in disbelief |
| 17:14.34 | Fisker- | "Repo" = alpha or beta? |
| 17:14.39 | Wobin | it was in branches way back when |
| 17:14.44 | Fisker- | oh |
| 17:14.46 | Wobin | I've actually rewritten the sorting |
| 17:14.49 | Wobin | but I've not tested it |
| 17:15.02 | Castigo | nevcariel how does wws does it then? |
| 17:15.02 | Fisker- | i'd donate 2 copper if you finish it! |
| 17:15.25 | nevcairiel | Castigo: guessing? :) |
| 17:15.35 | ckknight | Skellum: it's coming along |
| 17:15.59 | nevcairiel | Some stuff like a warlock casting health funnel or something can give it away |
| 17:16.14 | Wobin | this ^ |
| 17:16.28 | Skellum | Very cool |
| 17:16.52 | *** join/#wowace RLD_osx (n=rldempse@66.169.191.207) |
| 17:17.49 | Skellum | What would be the latest Ver of it to DL? |
| 17:18.16 | Wobin | Demonic Knowledge, Master Demonologist |
| 17:18.21 | Skellum | nm got it |
| 17:19.54 | Castigo | nevcariel i checked ehfs source code |
| 17:20.00 | Castigo | it's done by parsin SPELL_SUMMON |
| 17:20.07 | Castigo | and creating a map of pet guid owner guid |
| 17:20.21 | Castigo | so if the pet is summoned already u need to hope it dies at some point |
| 17:20.22 | Ackis | @project wow/ace3 |
| 17:20.23 | Repo | Ackis: http://www.wowace.com/projects/ace3/. Ace3. Game: WoW. Kaelten (Manager/Author), Ammo (Author), Antiarc (Author), mikk (Author), Nargiddley (Author), Nevcairiel (Author/Maintainer). Updated: 6 days ago. Tickets: 6/28 |
| 17:20.24 | Castigo | during the raid |
| 17:22.29 | Wobin | Castigo: or has some sort of owner/pet interaction |
| 17:22.46 | Wobin | which chances are high it will =) |
| 17:22.56 | Wobin | unless it's sitting outside |
| 17:23.28 | Castigo | Wobin i actually need to do that outside the game |
| 17:23.36 | Castigo | so an addon won't help me that much *sigh* |
| 17:23.54 | Wobin | Castigo: er, no, I mean in the log |
| 17:23.55 | Castigo | definitely "praying" that pet/owner dies to know who does it belongs to |
| 17:23.59 | Castigo | is bit silly |
| 17:24.19 | Wobin | 16:30'18.032Flaaghun #1 Master Demonologist was removed from Seduktra. |
| 17:24.19 | Wobin | 16:30'18.032Seduktra gains Master Demonologist. |
| 17:24.29 | Wobin | owner pet interaction, there |
| 17:24.41 | Castigo | Wobin i checked wlp and ehfs, both uses only SPELL_SUMMON event |
| 17:24.54 | Castigo | it has both sourceguid and dest guid |
| 17:24.57 | Wobin | yeess... |
| 17:25.04 | Wobin | I'm just suggesting another method of linking pet and owner |
| 17:25.40 | Wobin | although, wtf? 16:32'53.159Flaaghun #1 gains 10 Pet Happiness from Seduktra Well Fed. |
| 17:25.51 | Wobin | when did warlock pets get happiness =P |
| 17:26.00 | Castigo | lols |
| 17:26.02 | nevcairiel | lol |
| 17:26.16 | Castigo | wobin nah it's cool as it is, just abit too much euristic for the data calcs i wanted to do |
| 17:26.21 | Castigo | but will have to do if no other choices |
| 17:36.44 | *** join/#wowace Fisker- (i=ballmer@62.61.142.209.generic-hostname.arrownet.dk) |
| 17:37.58 | *** join/#wowace Fisker- (i=ballmer@62.61.142.209.generic-hostname.arrownet.dk) |
| 17:39.55 | *** join/#wowace Dashkal_ (n=dashkal@WoWUIDev/Nexus/dashkal) |
| 17:41.54 | *** join/#wowace RLD_osx (n=rldempse@66-169-191-207.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com) |
| 17:44.40 | ckknight | hey beautiful people |
| 17:44.57 | Fisker- | hey sexy ckknight |
| 17:44.58 | Xinhuan | hi |
| 17:45.32 | ckknight | word's come down the grapevine that _probably_ both Curse Premium and thus the Author Rewards Program will start within a month from now |
| 17:45.51 | *** join/#wowace mjc1 (n=mjc@c-66-176-165-198.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) |
| 17:45.54 | *** join/#wowace mjc2 (n=mjc@c-66-176-165-198.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) |
| 17:46.14 | nevcairiel | that grapevine has been pretty inaccurate in the past if you ask me |
| 17:46.29 | ckknight | true |
| 17:46.45 | nevcairiel | Within a month still sounsd good though |
| 17:46.47 | ckknight | but since we finally released the new curse client for both Windows and Mac, we're pretty on-track |
| 17:46.49 | nevcairiel | now go make it happen |
| 17:47.01 | Fisker- | then i hate you ckknight ! |
| 17:47.05 | Fisker- | You are my mortal enemy etc. |
| 17:47.11 | ckknight | Fisker-: but I'm your new daddy |
| 17:47.12 | nevcairiel | Also make sure that you can send non-US gift cards as well, a amazon.com gift-card doesnt really do me that much good! |
| 17:47.15 | ckknight | after all, I did fuck your mum |
| 17:47.23 | Xinhuan | tsk tsk |
| 17:47.27 | ckknight | nevcairiel: yes, we will be providing Amazon EU and US gift gards |
| 17:47.31 | Industrial | oh ckknight there you are |
| 17:47.34 | Fisker- | So i'm your MacGruber? |
| 17:47.35 | ckknight | howdy, Industrial |
| 17:47.40 | Xinhuan | what about singaporeans ckknight |
| 17:47.40 | Xinhuan | :) |
| 17:47.42 | Industrial | ckknight: HA-HA! |
| 17:47.49 | nevcairiel | Xinhuan: you even have your own amazon? :D |
| 17:47.57 | Xinhuan | nah |
| 17:48.02 | ckknight | Xinhuan: I dunno about you |
| 17:48.17 | Industrial | Failsker- |
| 17:48.18 | ckknight | Xinhuan: I'm sure we can come up with something to work something out |
| 17:48.23 | Xinhuan | would be pretty meh if most of the rewards are unclaimable due to my location hehe |
| 17:48.38 | Xinhuan | i assume points are non-transferable? |
| 17:48.56 | nevcairiel | I heard they are, actually |
| 17:49.07 | ckknight | Xinhuan: absolutely transferrable |
| 17:49.09 | ckknight | and logs are kept |
| 17:49.27 | Skellum | In PB4 How do I get rid of the ToTT bar? |
| 17:49.32 | ckknight | Skellum: /pb4 |
| 17:49.36 | ckknight | go to Units |
| 17:49.47 | Skellum | thx |
| 17:49.58 | *** join/#wowace ilovemrdoe (n=chatzill@88-104-81-173.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) |
| 17:51.12 | Repo | 10tomquest2: 03gagou * r82 / (5 files in 1 directory): fix ticket 34 and 35 |
| 17:51.13 | Xinhuan | i'm reading someof those forum posts |
| 17:51.16 | Repo | add key binding to toggle quest tracker (see Blizz default key binding interface to set your key) |
| 17:51.19 | Repo | add option to automatically track quest when accepted |
| 17:51.24 | Xinhuan | can someone explain how the Glider rules affect wow mods? |
| 17:51.35 | Xinhuan | i'm not really seeing any direct link between the 2 issues |
| 17:51.55 | nevcairiel | Hasn't the glider topic been dealth with a year ago already? |
| 17:52.02 | nevcairiel | People keep digging that up |
| 17:52.43 | ckknight | and we currently have no official policy wrt the new ui policy, though we will come up with one "soon" |
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| 17:54.10 | nevcairiel | Curse is an official fansite, right? If it wants to stay one, i don't see many possible ways to deal with it, except to accept and suck it up. Of course waiting a bit and seeing how blue explains/clarifys some of the points would be smart |
| 17:54.29 | nevcairiel | At least we can tell obfuscated addons to go and suck it up now |
| 17:55.26 | ckknight | for right now, we're not going to do any extra filtering that we haven't already been doing, until said policy is determined |
| 18:00.37 | Hirsute | Xinhuan: I don't think it does. |
| 18:01.09 | Hirsute | This seems, to me, to be pretty solidly aimed at Carbonite and the like, but that's just inference on my part. |
| 18:01.09 | Xinhuan | i mean, there are a few ppl saying this policy is a result of the glider rulings... but doesn't explain how |
| 18:01.25 | Xinhuan | march 10 had a glider ruling |
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| 18:01.31 | Xinhuan | http://news.justia.com/cases/featured/arizona/azdce/2:2006cv02555/322017/ |
| 18:01.34 | Hirsute | There are also a few people saying this policy outlaws the curse updater, doesn't make them right. |
| 18:01.45 | Hirsute | Xinhuan: You're right, I don't think it has anything to do with this policy, though. |
| 18:02.01 | Xinhuan | #116 has a permanent injuction applied |
| 18:02.16 | Xinhuan | #114 entitles blizzard to 6.5 million |
| 18:02.30 | Hirsute | At most, that ruling made them more confident they can enforce ToS legally. |
| 18:02.48 | Xinhuan | $95 was the widely reported one on most sites |
| 18:02.51 | Xinhuan | #95 |
| 18:04.42 | Hirsute | Yes. I'm aware of the glider ruling. I don't think it has much, if anything, to do with this policy change, though. |
| 18:05.46 | Toadkiller | Help me think through Grid2 defaults: Right now there is a batch of setup values that fill in Ace3DB defaults (ie the metatable). Later this stores modified values in the actual profile. Should I bother with that or apply changes directly to the setup? Reset is then programmatic by wiping and replacing and you always use setup values. |
| 18:06.05 | Fisker- | noone likes grid2 |
| 18:06.12 | Fisker- | hisses like a snake |
| 18:06.19 | Toadkiller | because its not done or because of phanx? |
| 18:06.36 | Fisker- | dunno |
| 18:07.10 | Toadkiller | Well nobody can like it atm because u cannot even set it up yet except by modifying code ... |
| 18:07.33 | Hjalte | I'm using Grid2 as my raid frame at the moment. It works alright, all I really miss at the moment is a way to display an indicator if eg. a buff is NOT present :) |
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| 18:08.02 | Toadkiller | coming soon hjalte, as soon as i let you modfiy the priority of a status on an indicator |
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| 18:13.26 | Repo | 10tomquest2: 03gagou * r83 / (2 files in 1 directory): fix keybinding error |
| 18:13.54 | quiescens | o.o |
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| 18:16.18 | Repo | 10tomquest2: 03gagou 04r83beta * r84 : Tagging as r83beta |
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| 18:17.52 | Repo | 10kg-panels: 03kagaro * r310 kgPanels.lua: |
| 18:17.55 | Repo | kgPanels: provide better error messages when WoW fails to load a texture file. |
| 18:18.04 | Hronos | àãñë ã |
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| 18:39.39 | Repo | 10kg-panels: 03kagaro * r311 / (2 files in 2 directories): kgPanels: added crop on/off for custom coordinates. |
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| 19:16.11 | Silberbuechse | is there a standalone mod to switch actionbars on target status like dominos ? |
| 19:16.49 | Nechckn | why not use it, it is modular and all... |
| 19:17.13 | nevcairiel | Bartender can switch on target status, if you use the custom header with some [help] and [harm] conditions |
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| 19:24.13 | Castigo | meh >< damn pets |
| 19:25.17 | Castigo | nevcairiel i parsed all the spell_summon (strangely enough bloodworm is a spell summon??), but in my test log no pets are summoned lockwise or hunterwise = the damage is not added, any other idea which do not involve parse spell names of a 200mb combat log file? |
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| 19:27.12 | Castigo | i think that WobWork suggested to use stuff like Health Funnel |
| 19:27.21 | Castigo | but Health funnel message doesn't contain any reference to the pet |
| 19:27.28 | Castigo | both guid src and dest are the caster's one |
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| 19:28.30 | Castigo | anyone else here is familiar with combatlog parsin? |
| 19:28.33 | Castigo | *parsing |
| 19:34.35 | Xinhuan | ok |
| 19:34.39 | Xinhuan | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15864747207&sid=1&pageNo=25#491 |
| 19:34.49 | Xinhuan | i finally understand the implications of glider's ruling |
| 19:34.53 | Xinhuan | based on that post |
| 19:35.17 | Xinhuan | only that it isn't actually in the EULA yet |
| 19:35.38 | Cheads | hmm anyone had a problem with flight points not showing up on the map when you talk to a flight master?(obviously some addon problem... but which) |
| 19:35.54 | Xinhuan | Cheads, seen it before, i believe it is a wow client bug |
| 19:35.57 | Xinhuan | just reloadui |
| 19:36.04 | Cheads | I did.. didn't work =) |
| 19:36.10 | Xinhuan | relog |
| 19:36.17 | Cheads | yeah.. might have to do that then =) |
| 19:36.19 | Xinhuan | sometimes you need to resync with the server |
| 19:36.22 | Xinhuan | i remember doing that |
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| 19:36.34 | Xinhuan | when it refused to recognize i have 3 flightpoints in kalimdor |
| 19:36.38 | nevcairiel | I had to relog when my combatlog was completly empty |
| 19:36.39 | Xinhuan | i relogged and they showed up |
| 19:36.44 | nevcairiel | reloadui didnt help |
| 19:37.26 | Cheads | relog worked.. thanks |
| 19:37.33 | Cheads | that was easy =) |
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| 19:44.27 | Repo | 10gsshield: 03Julith * r19 / (2 files in 1 directory): GridStatusShield: |
| 19:44.30 | Repo | - fixed (or at least removed :) error messages |
| 19:44.33 | Repo | - fixed shield stacking bug |
| 19:46.40 | Repo | 10gsshield: 03Julith 04v0.6 * r20 : Tagging as v0.6 |
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| 20:06.17 | Repo | 10recountthreat: 03Elsia 043.0.9 release * r44 : Tagging as 3.0.9 release |
| 20:07.24 | Toadkiller | Mmm, is jira no longer the place for ace3config ? |
| 20:07.37 | ckknight | no |
| 20:07.43 | ckknight | use wowace's ticket tracker |
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| 20:10.14 | Elsia | anyone got a function that recursively prints table memory usage flying around willing to share? |
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| 20:16.52 | Repo | 10gsshield: 03Julith * r21 LibShieldLeft.lua: GridStatusShield: - now really removed error messages... |
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| 20:26.04 | Fisker- | slaps ckknight around a bit with a large trout |
| 20:26.11 | Fisker- | what are ya gonna do? |
| 20:26.15 | Fisker- | taunts |
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| 20:26.32 | ckknight | I ain't 'fraid o' no ghost |
| 20:26.35 | *** join/#wowace ddollar (n=ddollar@unaffiliated/daved) |
| 20:27.16 | Fisker- | i'm no ghost |
| 20:27.23 | Fisker- | at best i'm a zombie goasts |
| 20:27.45 | Hirsute-Home | ckknight: You pulling out of the addon game? |
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| 20:27.57 | ckknight | Hirsute-Home: why would I do that? |
| 20:28.10 | Fisker- | Because you don't want to get it pregnant |
| 20:28.12 | Fisker- | and it's not on the pill |
| 20:28.21 | ckknight | my precious donate buttons only give me $20/month or so |
| 20:28.22 | Fisker- | dirty whore |
| 20:28.27 | ckknight | if I'm told to remove em, I will |
| 20:28.44 | ckknight | and we're launching the Curse Author Rewards Program soon |
| 20:28.46 | EvilJohn | you'd think blizzard could have found a way to make a donate message or button work. |
| 20:28.58 | Hirsute-Home | ckknight: A comment (from someone else) in one of the threads on the official forums sounded like you were. |
| 20:28.59 | ckknight | and due to my popularity, I'd receive far more than $20/month |
| 20:29.10 | ckknight | Hirsute-Home: I've yet to post in those forums |
| 20:29.15 | ckknight | and I think I know the post |
| 20:29.22 | ckknight | people should realize my name has two k's in it |
| 20:29.58 | Fisker- | as long it doesn't have 3 |
| 20:30.06 | Elsia | I read a poster elsioa claiming that recount eats baby rabbits and large trouts |
| 20:30.18 | ckknight | it's true, I've seen it. |
| 20:30.28 | nevcairiel | Elsia: mmm trouts |
| 20:30.29 | Hirsute-Home | I think it was the writer's strike thread. Someone said people will step in to fill the place of those authors who start writing, and someone said, "You'll step up to replace ckknight". I couldn't find anything from you on the pages for any addons you're involved with about quitting, so I wasn't sure. |
| 20:30.34 | Elsia | only with tartar sauce |
| 20:30.40 | Hirsute-Home | Glad to hear it isn't true. |
| 20:30.49 | ckknight | Hirsute-Home: yea, no quitting more than I already have |
| 20:30.54 | ckknight | Hirsute-Home: I work for Curse now, you know |
| 20:30.54 | Hirsute-Home | Heh |
| 20:30.58 | ckknight | it'd be kinda hard to quit |
| 20:30.58 | Hirsute-Home | *nod* |
| 20:31.25 | ckknight | I do hope this gets straightened out, though |
| 20:31.28 | EvilJohn | if anything it's going windup putting curse in a stronger position |
| 20:31.38 | ckknight | quite possible |
| 20:31.40 | Hirsute-Home | I didn't think you were one of those that was leaving, just thought I'd ask |
| 20:31.55 | ckknight | what I really want to do, though |
| 20:32.01 | ckknight | is release a QuestHelper competitor |
| 20:32.01 | ckknight | <.< |
| 20:32.02 | ckknight | >.> |
| 20:32.04 | EvilJohn | well they can always go write addons for warhammer |
| 20:32.06 | ckknight | but that's hard. |
| 20:32.22 | ckknight | meh |
| 20:32.26 | ckknight | no one plays WAR anymore |
| 20:32.32 | ckknight | the honeymoon period is over |
| 20:32.33 | ckknight | back to WoW |
| 20:32.34 | Axodious | ^- true statement |
| 20:32.38 | EvilJohn | most of that questhelper data seems to be minded from wowhead locations |
| 20:32.42 | EvilJohn | mined |
| 20:32.49 | ckknight | EvilJohn: it has its own mining system |
| 20:33.01 | Axodious | i know over 30 people that went to war, and are back |
| 20:33.07 | ckknight | I dunno, it'd be nice to gleam data from e.g. wowdb or wowhead, but there's issues with that |
| 20:33.30 | ckknight | and doing one's own mining is tough |
| 20:33.31 | EvilJohn | yes |
| 20:33.55 | nevcairiel | didnt wowdb kinda die? |
| 20:33.55 | EvilJohn | the data aggregation is the hard part, imho |
| 20:34.04 | ckknight | nevcairiel: Adamar got lazy. |
| 20:34.06 | ckknight | afaik |
| 20:34.08 | ckknight | well, not lazy |
| 20:34.11 | ckknight | just really busy with other stuff |
| 20:34.13 | ckknight | and he doesn't like WoW |
| 20:34.16 | nevcairiel | distracted is the work |
| 20:34.20 | nevcairiel | *word |
| 20:34.23 | ckknight | yea |
| 20:34.27 | ckknight | also, he's getting married today |
| 20:34.32 | ckknight | I'm going to his wedding |
| 20:35.11 | Fisker- | excuses |
| 20:35.31 | Fisker- | Every mmo but WoW is going to fail |
| 20:35.31 | Hirsute-Home | Well, datamining takes a while to set up, but with a good xml parser, it isn't tough to do once you get it started. The ethics of mining someone else's site is another question. |
| 20:35.33 | Fisker- | true story |
| 20:35.47 | Fisker- | Only exception is a seperate Blizzard-made MMO |
| 20:36.50 | ckknight | I know I'll play Blizz's next MMO |
| 20:37.02 | ckknight | Hirsute-Home: I don't mean datamining from wowhead/wowdb |
| 20:37.05 | ckknight | also, most of their data is JSON |
| 20:37.22 | Hirsute-Home | JSON? |
| 20:37.23 | ckknight | if anything, I'd try to do it through WoWDB, seeing as that's inside the company |
| 20:37.32 | ckknight | Hirsute-Home: look it up, it's a data format |
| 20:37.35 | Fisker- | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JSON |
| 20:37.37 | Hirsute-Home | Aaah, okay. |
| 20:37.49 | nevcairiel | javascript object notation, i believe |
| 20:38.00 | ckknight | {"ur":"mom"} |
| 20:38.16 | Hirsute-Home | -_- |
| 20:38.32 | EvilJohn | well I could play wow just fine with the default UI, raid healing would be annoying, but I could it. THe addons make hte game play better, and I fully intend onsupport authors through the curse premium program, which I think is fair. |
| 20:38.41 | ckknight | even still, WoWDB has issues in that if I were to get a nice, easy way to sync, it'd be low-priority and take forever |
| 20:38.48 | EvilJohn | the minute you take someone's money it's a completely different relationship with the user. |
| 20:38.49 | ckknight | since the devs of WoWDB are busy with other things |
| 20:39.09 | Fisker- | <fuck="you"></fuck> |
| 20:39.11 | ckknight | EvilJohn: a big thing we're gonna push for with Premium is that proceeds do go to addon authors. |
| 20:39.21 | ckknight | not all of them, but a good chunk |
| 20:39.24 | ckknight | I don't have the figures |
| 20:39.27 | EvilJohn | right, and that's good |
| 20:39.32 | Axodious | psh Fisker- |
| 20:39.33 | ckknight | we'll be providing other services, too |
| 20:39.35 | Axodious | empty tag is empty! |
| 20:39.37 | ckknight | outside of just the addon updater |
| 20:39.47 | EvilJohn | im comfortable with a business relationship with curse, not so comfortable, say, giving $20 to guys on carbonite.com |
| 20:39.55 | Xinhuan | any plans for addon donation links of some sort in the curse client? |
| 20:39.56 | *** join/#wowace Kilroo (n=Kilroo@cpe-098-026-172-053.triad.res.rr.com) |
| 20:39.59 | Fisker- | i couldn't remember |
| 20:40.14 | Fisker- | but i don't think you may do <something="attribute" /> |
| 20:40.14 | ckknight | EvilJohn: as long as you have the right to choose, I'd be cool with em |
| 20:40.21 | ckknight | no one forces you to use Carbonite |
| 20:40.23 | Xinhuan | i'm sure you'll be interested in it ckknight ;p |
| 20:40.27 | EvilJohn | right |
| 20:40.28 | EvilJohn | i agree |
| 20:40.40 | ckknight | Xinhuan: we might, but that might be delayed until after Premium launch |
| 20:40.43 | Kilroo | What has Carbonite got that Tourguide doesn't, again? |
| 20:40.52 | ckknight | Kilroo: cool map? |
| 20:40.54 | EvilJohn | i never used tourguide |
| 20:40.54 | Kilroo | Little auxiliary map thing and more people behind it? |
| 20:41.08 | EvilJohn | the carbonite minimap is really pretty impressive |
| 20:41.08 | Xinhuan | do you have "curse client" install numbers to share? |
| 20:41.14 | Xinhuan | like how many people actually use the CC |
| 20:41.17 | EvilJohn | all whining aside, that works really well |
| 20:41.20 | nevcairiel | carbonite also has some pvp shit |
| 20:41.27 | Fisker- | Kilroo it has a price tag |
| 20:41.28 | EvilJohn | it |
| 20:41.29 | Fisker- | bawwwwwwwwwww |
| 20:41.29 | nevcairiel | the full version, anyway |
| 20:41.31 | Kilroo | Bah, pvp. |
| 20:41.35 | EvilJohn | it's spammy as hell, and uses memory |
| 20:41.36 | Kilroo | Gets in the way of the game. |
| 20:41.40 | EvilJohn | (a lot it seems) |
| 20:42.13 | Hjalte | Xinhuan: netcurse said around 1 million users the other day I believe. I'm sure ckknight can give you a better number. |
| 20:42.30 | Xinhuan | i'm sure he can - but i'm not sure if he's allowed to ;p |
| 20:43.12 | EvilJohn | I doubt policy change would have happened if carbonite iddn't ruin it for everyone |
| 20:43.21 | Kilroo | goes to check the release notes on oUF-Caellian and see whether they have anything worth doing another merge. |
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| 20:44.17 | Kilroo | Dammit, it looks like it does. |
| 20:44.45 | Kilroo | ...eh, I'll look into it later. |
| 20:46.17 | Kilroo | considers adding a line to reduce Combuctor to a reasonable scale somewhere. |
| 20:48.45 | NivFreak | I love combuctor, but I wish I could resize the window :) |
| 20:49.02 | Stanzilla | you can |
| 20:49.08 | Stanzilla | there is a drag handle in the lower right corner |
| 20:49.11 | NivFreak | oh |
| 20:49.14 | NivFreak | is that new? |
| 20:49.18 | Stanzilla | not really :P |
| 20:49.18 | nevcairiel | not really |
| 20:49.26 | NivFreak | I asked this a couple months ago :P |
| 20:49.34 | Kilroo | There are limits to how much you can resize it though |
| 20:49.37 | NivFreak | and started a bitching fest |
| 20:49.41 | Kilroo | because it needs room on the edges. |
| 20:50.40 | Kilroo | Still, at .7 scale and minimum size it's pretty reasonable, even if I did previously generally prefer my inventory wider than it was tall. |
| 20:50.48 | Kilroo | If I ever decide I don't like Combuctor after all, I shall either go back to TBag-Shefki, or try to write TBag-PT3. |
| 20:50.58 | Fisker- | http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=8464836877&sid=1#11 <-HURRR DURRR |
| 20:52.57 | *** join/#wowace Vilkku (n=Vilkku@86-60-154-192-dyn-dsl.ssp.fi) |
| 20:53.29 | Xinhuan | Tekkub, did you get my messages about teknicolor |
| 20:53.42 | Tekkub | mu? |
| 20:53.57 | Xinhuan | i mentioned that your hook to recolor player logging off messages |
| 20:54.07 | Xinhuan | "breaks" if it applied after a timestamping hook |
| 20:54.18 | Xinhuan | because you totally replaced arg1 |
| 20:54.45 | Xinhuan | that is, i would have to edit your addon to optdep my timestamp addon |
| 20:54.52 | Xinhuan | to hook in the right order |
| 20:55.52 | Tekkub | hum |
| 20:56.19 | ckknight | Xinhuan: I think the new client is like 700k, but we've had >1 million total, the ones not on the new client will update once they open it |
| 20:57.08 | Hirsute-Home | ckknight: The new curse client? |
| 20:57.11 | ckknight | 3.0 |
| 20:57.31 | Hirsute-Home | *nod* |
| 20:57.43 | Xinhuan | do you count CC install numbers by account? |
| 20:58.11 | Xinhuan | if someone has 2 computers installed, but uses the same account to install 2 copies of every addon and CC |
| 20:59.15 | Xinhuan | on the 2 computers |
| 20:59.22 | Xinhuan | would it count as 2 installs? lol |
| 20:59.54 | ckknight | I believe it's by-account |
| 20:59.57 | ckknight | not positive |
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| 21:32.03 | Skellum | Gahhhhhh!!! |
| 21:32.09 | Skellum | Redbull "cola" is poison |
| 21:32.55 | ckknight | cola? |
| 21:33.01 | Skellum | yea |
| 21:33.07 | Skellum | They've introduced a Cola |
| 21:33.21 | Skellum | Brown too instead of a clear |
| 21:33.21 | Nechckn | Say it isn't so!! |
| 21:33.35 | Skellum | The gas station man was nice enough to tell me it goes well with rum |
| 21:33.37 | Groktar | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJqoRaphiEk |
| 21:33.47 | Nechckn | lol, how nice of him |
| 21:34.01 | Skellum | I imagine thats because you could be drinking rum made in a shoe from shoes and it would mask the flavor with its horrible flavor |
| 21:34.39 | do3mca | redbull cola is shit. |
| 21:35.09 | do3mca | i was dumb enough to first buy a sixpack and then decide it doesnt like anything i wanna taste |
| 21:35.19 | do3mca | +taste |
| 21:35.29 | Skellum | Ugh... |
| 21:35.35 | Skellum | Its finsihed |
| 21:35.53 | do3mca | hehe |
| 21:36.16 | Vangual | to add to the pain, the can is bigger |
| 21:36.27 | do3mca | 0.35 |
| 21:36.59 | do3mca | tbh, i think you can buy both in .25 and .35 (l!) |
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| 21:37.22 | do3mca | whatever that is in oz or whatever you merkins currently use =P |
| 21:37.27 | Vangual | they only have the bigger ones around here then |
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| 21:37.42 | do3mca | ah |
| 21:38.02 | do3mca | they even sell plain bull in plastic here. you wont notice when you dont look good enough |
| 21:38.13 | ckknight | wth, who is snowfox? |
| 21:38.48 | NightHawkTheSane | Nechckn: personally, i saw "digg.com" and said "oh, trolls and misinformation, ill leave it be" :P |
| 21:39.17 | Nechckn | NightHawkTheSane gotcha, as I said, I was just putting it out there. |
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| 21:40.37 | Kilroo | There's this one drink I tried |
| 21:40.48 | Kilroo | they were giving it out at a disc golf tournament. |
| 21:40.59 | Kilroo | Resurrect, I think it was. Supposed to be a detoxifier. |
| 21:41.15 | Kilroo | Tasted to me like Smarties ground up into watered-down pomegranate juice. |
| 21:41.26 | Kilroo | How I got that specific I have no idea. |
| 21:41.42 | Vangual | sounds tasty |
| 21:45.03 | Repo | 10ice-hud: 03Parnic * r358 modules/PlayerHealth.lua: |
| 21:45.06 | Repo | - added toggle to enable/disable showing incoming heals on the player's health bar. also cleaned up the implementation a bit to display more consistently and hide when appropriate |
| 21:46.56 | Pneumatus | Parnic: ping? |
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| 22:28.21 | Repo | 10buttonfacade: 03StormFX * r227 Core.lua: |
| 22:28.23 | Repo | - The root global and addon panels will no longer display a selected skin due to their inability to display the correct skin. |
| 22:30.15 | Repo | 10gsshield: 03Julith 04v0.6b * r22 : Tagging as v0.6b |
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| 22:36.36 | Repo | 10big-wigs: 037destiny * r5064 Ulduar/Mimiron.lua: Mimiron: Fix property(revision keyword) :/ and koKR Update |
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| 23:10.19 | Tinyboom | anyone know of an addon that counts items between 2 accounts? |
| 23:10.51 | vhaarr | that's impossible |
| 23:11.00 | vhaarr | unless you log on both accounts at the same time |
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| 23:11.48 | Tinyboom | thought so |
| 23:11.54 | NeoTron | well it could save the data |
| 23:11.58 | vhaarr | no it can't |
| 23:12.14 | NeoTron | and why not? |
| 23:12.21 | Tinyboom | separate folders for saves? |
| 23:12.23 | vhaarr | it can save it, but the other account can't access it |
| 23:12.32 | NeoTron | oh other account, missed that |
| 23:12.36 | NeoTron | I can |
| 23:12.47 | NeoTron | because I make my 2nd account's settings a soft link to the first |
| 23:12.54 | NeoTron | so I share global addon stuff |
| 23:13.03 | NeoTron | but that's not normal use |
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| 23:24.53 | SqueeG | why are objects drawing at such sharp contrast in the distance, compared to terrain? >.> |
| 23:25.53 | selckin | diffrend settings |
| 23:27.02 | SqueeG | ugh, i don't remember what does what any more, I hate fiddling with new installs |
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| 23:41.02 | Repo | 10kg-panels: 03kagaro * r312 / (3 files in 2 directories): |
| 23:41.05 | Repo | kgPanels: db upgrade code + tested new absolute coord stuff in game |
| 23:50.04 | Repo | 10acheron: 03Nickodemus_wow * r79 / (2 files in 2 directories): - added zhTW localization |
| 23:52.30 | Repo | 10acheron: 03Nickodemus_wow 041.1.6 * r80 : Tagging as 1.1.6 |
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