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| 01:06.57 | Stormscape | my GM just got a warglaive and he shit a brick |
| 01:07.01 | Stormscape | He's so happy about it |
| 01:07.26 | fewyn | lol |
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| 01:14.39 | Noxy | wrong button herp derp |
| 01:14.44 | Noxy | as I was going to say |
| 01:14.48 | Noxy | I shit a brick too. |
| 01:14.58 | Noxy | But its just cause my tummy has been playing up lately. |
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| 01:43.14 | Lornetc | If anyone is on lost isles on beta, my group would like a tank to run some heroics. |
| 01:43.20 | Lornetc | :P |
| 01:48.41 | Noxy | I would if I wasnt working ): |
| 01:54.46 | Lornetc | been in queue for an hour and 35 minutes >.> |
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| 08:44.01 | blitztod | hi i need help |
| 08:44.33 | blitztod | need help |
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| 16:30.02 | Freyja | [The Wowhead Blog] News Round Up: Captain Placeholder, Free Epic Beta Gear, Blue Posts - http://www.wowhead.com/news=204131/news-round-up-captain-placeholder-free-epic-beta-gear-blue-posts |
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| 17:43.17 | fewyn | http://shirt.woot.com/derby/entry/63772/whispers-of-adventure |
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| 19:09.02 | blademeld | HEY GUYS |
| 19:09.08 | blademeld | Mr_Rabies: EATS EGGS |
| 19:09.12 | blademeld | THIS IS ALL |
| 19:11.39 | raspy | and this is new? |
| 19:12.05 | blademeld | no |
| 19:12.06 | blademeld | yes |
| 19:12.20 | blademeld | I always assumed Mr_Rabies ate anime DvDs |
| 19:12.43 | Mr_Rabies | >2012 |
| 19:12.50 | Mr_Rabies | >DVD |
| 19:13.52 | blademeld | yes, old DVDs |
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| 19:29.25 | WormDrink | will blizzard merge two wow accounts ? |
| 19:29.39 | WormDrink | two battle net accounts I mean |
| 19:31.59 | Mr_Rabies | can't hurt to ask |
| 19:32.18 | hylje | blizzard customer support is kind of neat and may well go out of their way to do unusual things |
| 19:33.12 | Amarande | Blizzard is win and awesome |
| 19:33.25 | Amarande | is getting ready to return to WoW after nearly a year and a half |
| 19:36.55 | blademeld | Amarande: lol, nice long break eh? |
| 19:37.32 | WormDrink | will blizzard merge two battle net accountsehrm, which should I buy, starter to cataclysm or battle chest ? |
| 19:37.41 | WormDrink | ugh |
| 19:37.50 | WormDrink | sorry, double paste ;( - which should I buy, starter to cataclysm or battle chest ? |
| 19:38.15 | blademeld | battle chest is technically cheaper |
| 19:38.41 | blademeld | if you have a starter account that you haven't played, RoF will upgrade to cata for free |
| 19:38.42 | WormDrink | well yes - but ehrm - how much is it to ugprade to cataclysm from battle chest ? |
| 19:39.07 | blademeld | battle chest is up to tBC, so 60 bucks for WotLK and60 bucks for cata iirc |
| 19:39.59 | WormDrink | RoF ? |
| 19:40.32 | blademeld | Recruit a Friend |
| 19:40.36 | blademeld | err |
| 19:40.38 | blademeld | RaF |
| 19:40.40 | blademeld | rather |
| 19:40.43 | WormDrink | oh |
| 19:42.41 | WormDrink | what is montly fee again |
| 19:43.05 | blademeld | one thousand five hundred dollars |
| 19:43.13 | WormDrink | hmm, seems legit |
| 19:43.38 | WormDrink | nvm |
| 19:45.09 | Amarande | blademeld: I switched to LOTRO for a while but they're going more and more pay to win in the last few updates, so I'll be switching back to Blizzard :) |
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| 20:07.29 | Noxy | LOTRO IS FOR WIN |
| 20:07.39 | Noxy | gallops around on awsm ponies |
| 20:08.29 | Amarande | Heh, it was good (well, apart from class deeds, which irritated me any way you slice it) until the whole crystal business in the last few updates |
| 20:09.20 | Noxy | I dont even have a level cap character in lotro |
| 20:09.25 | Amarande | When they're pushing in their cash shop crystals that boost your weapon DPS, preparing to entirely end of life the in-game subscriber perks system and replace it with having to use the cash shop for the same buffs (including most notably a 5% damage buff), and it turns out that the capstone raid of the current expansion is heavily based around DPS races, you see the writing on the wall |
| 20:09.27 | Noxy | but my husband buys me ponies in it. |
| 20:10.33 | Amarande | When you look at the next expansion's preorder options and note that they're getting ready to offer another high-powered Legendary Item enhancement, which you can only get one of as a bonus if you preorder the $70 "Legendary" version, and which are already known to be to be sold in the cash shop for $10 worth of points each ... Then you really see the writing on the wall. |
| 20:11.14 | Amarande | Not to mention they hyped up the whole extra bag (and LOTRO always paled in the face of WoW with bags, too) thing as a Rohan preorder thing, and then pulled a sorry you'll have to get the Legendary if you want it included move ... :| |
| 20:12.06 | Amarande | Before they announced the RoR preorders, it was basically just "preorder Rohan & you get the extra bag" |
| 20:14.06 | Amarande | However, I don't really have much faith, given the whole crystal thing, that the endgame content in Rohan won't expect you to have those upgrades on your items. Or maybe "technically not require" them, but only if you're the LOTRO equivalent to Ensidia or Nihilum. :S |
| 20:17.18 | fewyn | http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2140824020/word-realms |
| 20:18.10 | Amarande | Nifty. :) |
| 20:21.12 | Amarande | Sooo ... is anyone getting that semi-drooly "we shall be as gods" feeling looking at the DPS and damage figures on MoP weapon info that's been out so far? :) |
| 20:21.34 | Amarande | Couple more expansions, and we can probably three-shot C'Thun. LOL |
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| 21:41.00 | Amarande | Wow, the Cataclysm CE is still available new at a standard retail price this far down the line? :blink |
| 21:41.14 | Amarande | was checking to see if there was any new preorder info about MoP and noticed Amazon is still selling Cata CE's ... |
| 21:42.52 | blademeld | Amarande: cata CE is less valuable than Vanilla and tBC :P |
| 21:42.54 | Amarande | Although, my personal speculation is that based on what we know about MoP, that it's virtually certainly not going to come out till at least November. |
| 21:43.16 | Amarande | blademeld: yeah, but e.g. the SW:TOR CE sold out like wildfire |
| 21:43.28 | Amarande | Mostly I think not at least November because of certain instance changes |
| 21:43.41 | blademeld | Amarande: I think people stopped giving two craps in the less populated areas |
| 21:44.03 | Amarande | It gives them almost a year to make sure that Hallows' End works properly with the new SM GY/Cath combined instance we're getting in MoP. |
| 21:44.40 | Amarande | Otherwise, they'd have to scramble to make sure HH is working, I would suppose ... |
| 21:45.01 | hylje | it's as if rehashing item levels is difficult |
| 21:46.34 | Amarande | hylje: well, what occurred to me is that HH takes place in an instance that is being radically changed |
| 21:46.53 | Amarande | it appears we don't have SM Graveyard anymore when MoP comes out, it and Cath are being made into a single instance |
| 21:47.05 | hylje | isn't it in a normally unused part of it |
| 21:47.26 | Amarande | Nope. It's right out there in the middle of the main path before you go into the main tomb where the bosses are |
| 21:47.44 | Amarande | That big outside area with a stone path, IIRC (it's been about a year and a half since I logged on last, and even longer since I was last in SM) |
| 21:48.05 | hylje | yea i know the graveyard outdoor part |
| 21:48.30 | Amarande | but I'm not sure how the instance flow is going to be in MoP SM (since I'm not in beta and have not seen a map) |
| 21:48.34 | hylje | but i remember HH being in a much smaller zone you directly zone into without having to go through the SM indoor portal |
| 21:48.47 | hylje | with the LFD |
| 21:48.49 | Amarande | Ah, they did do that "holiday instance finder" thing |
| 21:49.16 | Amarande | Also, it's not like they seem to be particularly unwilling to disrupt Hallows with patches LOL |
| 21:49.18 | blademeld | oh god |
| 21:49.24 | blademeld | people are talking in this channel |
| 21:49.27 | hylje | about wow |
| 21:49.37 | Amarande | I still remember the issues people had when 4.0.1 came out, which was in a mid-October time frame |
| 21:49.40 | blademeld | sobs on hylje's pants |
| 21:50.45 | hylje | cata launch was super smooth for me |
| 21:50.59 | Amarande | well, the biggest thing I remember was the UI panic |
| 21:51.05 | hylje | beside a couple extended maintenance it felt like a big patch from wotlk |
| 21:51.15 | Amarande | 4.0.1, as I remember, was the patch that made click-off of buffs a protected function |
| 21:51.42 | Amarande | as a result, a lot of unit frames all of a sudden could no longer support clickoffs, but with no visual warning of this when you logged on |
| 21:52.12 | hylje | hilarity ensued |
| 21:52.25 | Amarande | which dovetailed especially badly with Hallows because of people being hit with Hallowed Wands that gave them forms that don't let them do much if anything (which last a full hour if not clicked off manually) and then panicking because they couldn't figure out why they couldn't get rid of them |
| 21:53.18 | Amarande | I myself remember getting hit with such a wand and then spending ... I think long enough trying to figure out how to work "/cancelaura" that I think it wore off by then anyway LOL |
| 21:54.13 | Amarande | (And to this day, I'm still not exactly sure what class would have got an actual and significant benefit from being able to click off a buff programmatically in combat, that necessitated that UI change :S) |
| 21:54.40 | Amarande | Usually they don't make stuff protected unless there's an addon using it that unbalances stuff, but I can't see how clicking off buffs could do that |
| 22:00.20 | Amarande | I can't really remember any issues with Cata launch, come to think of it :) |
| 22:00.31 | Amarande | Other than the ones that came of having the Cata world active before Cata itself, with 4.0.3a |
| 22:01.25 | Amarande | Mainly, people getting NMLed when taking non-interactive paths (flights etc.) that passed over Cata areas before Cata came out, and loads of people in Orgrimmar asking "how do I fly in Azeroth now?" |
| 22:07.10 | Djones_ | Amarande, I imagine it was stuff like using Hysteria and the such like |
| 22:07.17 | Djones_ | Also : Paladin tanks |
| 22:07.28 | Djones_ | Using divine shield to completely ignore a game meechanic without losing aggro really |
| 22:07.34 | Djones_ | (or divine protection) |
| 22:07.58 | Djones_ | That's just one such usage(which tbh still occurs with cancelaura macros but still) |
| 22:09.44 | Amarande | Ah, was Hysteria classed as a buff? That could possibly explain it (although, usually double-edged effects like that get classed as debuffs, not buffs, IIRC) |
| 22:09.57 | Amarande | Paladin tanks one is a point. I haven't played a paladin since BC, soo ... |
| 22:10.25 | Djones_ | Yeah, incoming unblockable superdamage attack that needed a tank swap? |
| 22:10.29 | Djones_ | bubble/unbubble |
| 22:10.31 | Djones_ | Lol. |
| 22:11.03 | hylje | did you hear they added a bubblehearth glyph in mop |
| 22:11.12 | Amarande | \o/ chaos orbs are BoE now |
| 22:11.31 | Amarande | hylje: nope. it's been about a year and a half since I played last, and I'm still trying to puzzle out exactly how my scribe is going to change in MoP |
| 22:12.06 | Amarande | though it looks like we pretty much have to learn the game again in MoP anyway, at least as far as the character progression system is concerned |
| 22:12.42 | hylje | ~streamlining~ |
| 22:14.08 | Djones_ | But I like having to start fights with Volcanic potion, Berzerking, Mindflay to 5 ticks, Shadowfiend, Dark Evangalism+int on use, Mind spike mind spike, mind spike, cancelaura whateveritis mindblast Mind spike mind spike, SW:D, Mind spike, Mind spike, Mind blast, Mind spike mind spike, Vampiric touch, Shadow Word :D, Devouring plague |
| 22:14.13 | Djones_ | As my opener |
| 22:14.15 | Djones_ | It's nice and simple. |
| 22:14.24 | Djones_ | Shadowpriests don't need streamlining! |
| 22:14.35 | Amarande | I guess streamlining the talent system makes sense, though, and possibly Blizzard might as well have broken down and done it years ago |
| 22:14.52 | Amarande | When we have EJ, a "versatile" character build system unfortunately loses about 99.9% of its value |
| 22:15.12 | Djones_ | It makes me chuckle when I think of all the "No more optimal builds" bullshit we've had. |
| 22:15.21 | Djones_ | No Blizzard, all we'll have now is optimal builds per fight |
| 22:15.39 | Djones_ | Instead of per instance(or if you were a hardcore raider : Exactly the same anyways as you changed your spec for each progress fight anyways) |
| 22:15.58 | Amarande | since fairly quickly, the math is done and you have for each class/spec combination an optimal PvE build, sometimes an optimal PvP build, and other than that a load of builds and sometimes entire talents that are never used because the math is already out there on the Web to say that they're known to be inferior |
| 22:16.50 | Amarande | Hardcore raiders used to return to Orgrimmar after every boss battle to do a respec? |
| 22:17.13 | Djones_ | No, because only one fight is really ever a progress fight |
| 22:17.21 | hylje | especially with armory and such which let people TalentGearScore you and tell you |
| 22:17.32 | Djones_ | But they would Clear up to fight X, have a 3 minute break whilst everyone respecs to optimal for THAT fight, wipe for 2 hours, kill it |
| 22:17.44 | Djones_ | Then the next week respec to something different for the -next- fight, depending on the factors involved. |
| 22:17.45 | Amarande | I could say "or Stormwind", but it seems like the world first guilds we're speaking of have virtually always been Horde |
| 22:17.54 | Djones_ | Heh |
| 22:17.56 | Amarande | so "Orgrimmar" is probably sufficient :) |
| 22:17.59 | hylje | yes who plays alliance anyway? |
| 22:18.14 | hylje | and even the alliance guilds will visit orgrimmar because that's where the cool guys hang out |
| 22:18.16 | Amarande | I have one server I play Horde on and one I play Alliance on |
| 22:18.20 | Djones_ | In a fight where dps doesn't matter much, for instance Amarande, you'd have dps sacrificing some dps talent points to pick up those 6% less spell damage talents, etc. |
| 22:18.41 | Djones_ | and you'd have particular characters picking particularly talents out to do particular things |
| 22:18.44 | Amarande | Djones: you mean like how I once recommended in Cata that rogues spec Sub for PUG heroics simply in order to take some pressure off the healer? |
| 22:18.58 | Djones_ | Essentially, although to a more refined degree. |
| 22:19.08 | Amarande | especially with that one Sub talent that gives blanket damage reduction, which looks like it would REALLY help in things like Tol'vir in particular |
| 22:19.21 | hylje | did blizzard ever undo that massive threat nerf |
| 22:19.30 | Djones_ | hylje, which threat nerf? |
| 22:19.32 | Djones_ | there was a threat nerf? |
| 22:19.35 | Amarande | remembers my first Tol'vir had two melee DPS members. It was ... interesting. LOL |
| 22:19.44 | Djones_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:20.03 | hylje | Djones_: early in cata they buffed tank threat like quintuple |
| 22:20.07 | Djane | Yup |
| 22:20.10 | Djane | from 300% to 500% |
| 22:20.12 | Amarande | I'm guessing that the % bonus threat from tanking builds/abilities has been tweaked? |
| 22:20.18 | Djane | (at the time I was already doing 40k TPS |
| 22:20.30 | Djane | And then it went up to like 70k and it was like, really? |
| 22:20.34 | Djane | What the fuck was the point in that? |
| 22:20.45 | Djane | Nowadays a decent tank will pull 100-150k tps. |
| 22:20.54 | hylje | that's where even the most stupid PUG tank (me) could keep the evil mooks from the soft and frail flower of a healer |
| 22:20.55 | Djane | And no dps can pull that much single target, not even close, not without gimmicks. |
| 22:21.17 | Amarande | Djane: probably to ease the pain on LFD groups who end up with full tier geared DPS and a tank who's only just qualified for heroics? |
| 22:22.06 | Amarande | which is just bad all around, unfortunately, without a massive, some might even sometimes say "stupid" tank TPS boost, depending on the differential |
| 22:22.17 | Amarande | in fact, later in the expansion, I'd think such a thing would become *more* important |
| 22:22.17 | hylje | and because it's a pretty good design change that a tank needs only to pay attention to mobs and health |
| 22:22.24 | Djane | bullshit |
| 22:22.37 | Amarande | And usually, there's a struggle to get people to play tanks, so such a thing is probably actually a good thing |
| 22:22.37 | Djane | It took away the only relevant thing in tanking |
| 22:22.50 | Djane | Am I tanking all the mobs? If no then I need to stop being a horrifically bad tank |
| 22:23.08 | Djane | Am I pressing my defensive buttons in the right order? No? Why not? It's not like it's hard. |
| 22:23.16 | Djane | The ONLY class that even has to think about surviving is DK's |
| 22:23.27 | Djane | and then for about 2 weeks before it's second nature. |
| 22:23.29 | Amarande | I mean really, does it encourage new tanks when they get to 85, get their gear to qualify to enter heroics, get into a heroic, and then find they can't even earn their endgame tanking wings because they get thrown into today's groups with uber geared DPS? |
| 22:23.43 | Djane | Taking away threat as relevant meant that basically a tank could spend the first minute slapping a boss |
| 22:23.45 | Djane | then actually go afk |
| 22:23.57 | hylje | Djane: how about your group is not a bloodied vanilla veteran group that spams /assist macros and spends threat all over the place |
| 22:23.58 | Djane | And never lose threat, and if it's not progress, probably never die either. |
| 22:24.19 | Djane | hylje, the threat change removed -any- skill from tanking completely. |
| 22:25.00 | Amarande | Djane: heh, actually, that "eventually you just plain can't lose threat" thing happens inevitably anyway as long as a battle is long enough (i.e., if the berserk timer is not too short) |
| 22:25.00 | Djane | When a tank can spend the first 1/5th of the fight trying and the remaining 4/5th of the fight reading Reddit, it requires no skill. |
| 22:25.09 | Djane | Amarande, not really. |
| 22:25.20 | Djane | When you were at 300%, that meant you had to do 1/3rd of the dps to keep up |
| 22:25.20 | Amarande | It happens even in games like LOTRO where tanks *don't* have anywhere near the threat % boosts that WoW tanks have. |
| 22:25.32 | Djane | Yes but it's comparative to your dps |
| 22:25.38 | Djane | Decent dps nowadays do 40-50k dps |
| 22:25.57 | Amarande | And, I should note, LOTRO tank DPS is terribly anemic to boot, too, when we're making this comparison. So they *can't* rely on raw DPS to keep threat up. |
| 22:26.03 | Djane | this means at 300% you had to do 13.3k-16.6k dps to stop them from overtaking you. |
| 22:26.30 | Djane | At 500% you have to do 8k-10k |
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| 22:26.40 | hylje | a boss that doesn't make you pay attention to adds or the environment is plain boring to begin with |
| 22:26.48 | Djane | hylje, welcome to 90% of all bosses ever. |
| 22:27.04 | Djane | Even those WITH adds or the environment are simply a matter of "taunt/strafe" |
| 22:27.06 | Amarande | And even then, raid battles over there eventually tend to reach a point where it's nigh on impossible for a tank to lose threat unless, and this is something WoW *doesn't* have: their "go to the head of the (threat) class" ability misses. |
| 22:27.08 | Djane | Don't stand in fire. |
| 22:27.23 | Amarande | In WoW, taunts don't miss unless the tank has not got enough Hit Rating, as I remember |
| 22:27.39 | Djane | Amarande, the thing is, a tank in current gear does 10k dps with auto attacks, basically. (and they fixed that. Taunts can't miss ever now) |
| 22:27.50 | Djane | Tanks roll with 0 hit and expertise rating |
| 22:28.08 | Djane | Because they don't need it, because they can keep threat after the first 30 seconds with pretty much just autoattacks |
| 22:28.24 | Djane | Wheras at 300% you had to constantly push your dps |
| 22:28.32 | Amarande | In any case: there's a ratio that a tank needs to keep up to the DPS DPS-wise, then, in order to maintain aggro |
| 22:28.35 | Djane | Because otherrwise that 50k dps mage/whatever WOULD overtake you |
| 22:28.41 | Djane | Yeah, which is basically 1/3rd, ish |
| 22:28.45 | Amarande | Doesn't this mean that the % should start lower and gradually be boosted during an expansion, not be reduced, though? |
| 22:28.48 | Djane | You've got the 130% margin of error in there. |
| 22:29.07 | Djane | Why? Tank dps increases significantly more, proportionally, to the dps |
| 22:29.13 | Djane | Tanks started at 5k, and are now at 25k |
| 22:29.15 | Amarande | Ah, that I did not think of |
| 22:29.19 | Djane | Dps started at 20k, and are now at 50k |
| 22:29.22 | Amarande | However |
| 22:29.34 | Djane | +/- a few k here and there |
| 22:29.41 | Amarande | Tanks started at 5k, doesn't this mean that a tank freshly qualifying for heroics is going to deal somewhere around that or maybe a few K more due to gear from the AH/crafting? |
| 22:29.49 | Amarande | Meanwhile, DPS are at 50K. |
| 22:29.54 | Djane | Sure, you're fucked nowadays |
| 22:30.03 | Djane | A fresh tank hasn't got a hope of keeping up with a high geared dps |
| 22:30.08 | Djane | And that's true regardless of the 300/500% |
| 22:30.08 | Amarande | Much as it might have a negative effect on raid challenge, the ratio that is of importance, is that between a fresh tank and high geared DPS |
| 22:30.15 | Djane | Incorrect |
| 22:30.16 | Amarande | because that, is what the LFD is going to give |
| 22:30.33 | Djane | because the difference between 5k X 300% and 5k x 500% is still half of nowhere near enough |
| 22:30.44 | Amarande | Okay, so new tanks late expansion should just face being vote kicked from every instance until they give up and switch to DPS? |
| 22:30.44 | Djane | A fresh tank will NEVER keep up with a decent geared and STUPID dps |
| 22:30.45 | Djane | Ever. |
| 22:30.52 | Amarande | Sure, that's going to have a good effect on queue times. Not. |
| 22:30.56 | Djane | No, they just spam taunt. |
| 22:31.04 | Djane | The change from 300% to 500% does not fix that issue |
| 22:31.14 | Djane | Doing 25k tps instead of 15k tps does not stop stupid 50k dps from pulling off you |
| 22:31.17 | Amarande | Yeah, it would have to go as high as 1000% to do it, probably |
| 22:31.21 | Djane | Precisely |
| 22:31.30 | Djane | Ergo, it's a meaningless factor in the "is this a good change" debate. |
| 22:31.35 | hylje | it definitely made a difference in my bracket |
| 22:31.36 | Amarande | however, what I'm suggesting is that that might be worth it from a player-base standpoint |
| 22:31.52 | hylje | which is why i think it's a good thing |
| 22:31.56 | Djane | It impacts a relatively low percentage of players. |
| 22:32.09 | Djane | It pretty much only affects groups where Tank is 2 tiers or more below the dps |
| 22:32.11 | Djane | AND the dps are stupid |
| 22:32.17 | Djane | Any more, and it's irrelevant |
| 22:32.18 | hylje | sounds like LFD |
| 22:32.25 | Djane | any less, and 300-500% is irrelevant. |
| 22:32.30 | hylje | i never got any tier gear |
| 22:32.35 | Djane | Also : That's what taunt is for. |
| 22:32.39 | hylje | ilvl 346 all day |
| 22:32.40 | Djane | Also : If you pull it, you tank it. |
| 22:32.56 | Djane | If a stupid dps pulls a mob off a fresh tank because he goes balls to the walls, it's the dps' fault. |
| 22:33.03 | Djane | You can always do less threat, the tank can't always do more. |
| 22:33.05 | hylje | that's a recipe for votekick |
| 22:33.09 | Djane | And if they do? You just taunt back |
| 22:33.15 | Djane | and you explain that you're fresh, and you can't keep up |
| 22:33.20 | Djane | and would they kindly just spread the damage out |
| 22:33.21 | hylje | bam votekick |
| 22:33.26 | Djane | Never happened to me |
| 22:33.33 | Djane | And i've levelled and geared up every single type of tank |
| 22:33.47 | Djane | If you're polite, explain the situation, and just get on with it |
| 22:33.49 | Amarande | Djane: and then, as Cata seems to have rolled, you probably get votekicked on many battlegroups (is LFD still battlegroup-based?) |
| 22:33.51 | Djane | 9 times out of 10 groups listen |
| 22:34.01 | Djane | I've only been votekikced from a group twice |
| 22:34.07 | Djane | Out of...200+ instances? |
| 22:34.18 | Djane | 1 of which was on my priest when I was healing |
| 22:34.21 | Djane | (and in greens) |
| 22:34.22 | hylje | Amarande: no, lfd is not battlegroup |
| 22:34.24 | Djane | (which was fair enough) |
| 22:34.30 | Djane | and the other was as a feral bear |
| 22:34.36 | Djane | And I had no idea how to play one(again, fair enough) |
| 22:34.45 | Djane | if you're competent at tanking, threat is irrelevant. That's what taunt is for. |
| 22:35.01 | Amarande | I remember when Cata was new, for instance, being plate DPS (except perhaps ret pally) was an automatic vote kick |
| 22:35.04 | Djane | And people DO understand that that T13 tiered whatever is to fault when they die. |
| 22:35.11 | Djane | "automatic" |
| 22:35.16 | Djane | Never experienced it myself. |
| 22:35.22 | Djane | And again, I ran hundreds of dungeons. |
| 22:35.25 | Djane | People got votekicked for being bad. |
| 22:35.31 | Djane | That is very different for being in plate. |
| 22:35.40 | Amarande | A very sadly large percentage of groups used it in order to try for a class that had more CC capabilities, like mage or rogue |
| 22:35.40 | Djane | (most of the votekicking was around lootissues tbh) |
| 22:35.49 | Djane | Maybe in the first week or so |
| 22:35.55 | Djane | Because the instances WERE hard |
| 22:36.01 | Djane | Kinda |
| 22:36.36 | Djane | Here's the thing. |
| 22:36.51 | Djane | You speak of "good for the playerbase" |
| 22:37.23 | Amarande | Djane: well, one of the biggest problems the playerbase consistently faces when it comes to instances is a shortage of tanks and healers |
| 22:37.29 | Djane | But what happens when most decent geared tanks stop running dungeons because they're boring as fuck because what's the point? |
| 22:37.31 | Amarande | at least in non-guilded PUGs, such as LFD |
| 22:37.45 | Djane | When they changed the threat, tanking stopped being fun, why? because there was absolutely nothing to do. |
| 22:38.00 | Djane | I have literally tanked LFR (looking for raid) with just crusader strike on my bars. |
| 22:38.18 | Djane | Because Yawn. |
| 22:38.35 | Djane | You can't die, you don't need to move hardly ever. The only mechanic is a taunt swap |
| 22:38.40 | Djane | And you don't have to press any buttons to do it. |
| 22:38.47 | Djane | So I rerolled, as did many others |
| 22:38.58 | Amarande | yeah, that's true. |
| 22:39.00 | Amarande | it's a fine line. |
| 22:39.09 | Djane | They broke tanking with the threat change, it wasn't hard to begin with. |
| 22:39.20 | Djane | But at least we had to consider whether or not we wanted any offensive stats |
| 22:39.28 | Djane | You had to balance your hit/expertise with your group |
| 22:39.36 | Djane | whilst getting as much survivability as you could. |
| 22:39.42 | Djane | After that? Reforge everything to avoidance |
| 22:39.53 | Djane | Gem everything in avoidance/stam/whatever. |
| 22:40.04 | Djane | Hell, nowadays you're back to stam gems in every socket. |
| 22:40.25 | Amarande | However, it does so often seem (with possibly the main exception of prot pallies in certain patches) that life outside of instances strongly encourages people to choose DPS builds rather than tanks or healers |
| 22:40.37 | Djane | Why? |
| 22:40.44 | Djane | Dungeons are easier as tank or healer than dps. |
| 22:40.56 | Djane | Farming is easier |
| 22:41.01 | Djane | Raids are easier |
| 22:41.02 | Amarande | Dungeons are, but that's only your time inside dungeons. When you're doing dailies and such, DPS makes for faster questing. |
| 22:41.15 | Djane | Welcome to dualspec. |
| 22:41.40 | Djane | If you want to do quests and shit quickly, then obviously you need to be a dps |
| 22:41.56 | Djane | But that has no relevant on tanking, threat, or the relative populations of dungeons/raids at all. |
| 22:42.00 | Djane | Since you know, you can do both. |
| 22:42.25 | Djane | relevance* |
| 22:42.42 | Djane | And since with the exception of feral, it's all different gear for the specs anyways, there's no sacrifice either. |
| 22:43.58 | Djane | Also : By statistics the most hard to find class is actually healers |
| 22:44.00 | Djane | not tanks. |
| 22:44.10 | Amarande | Yeah, but tanks are significantly rarer than DPS, too |
| 22:44.14 | Djane | Well yes |
| 22:44.18 | Djane | But you need less of them anyways |
| 22:44.24 | Amarande | To the point that the typical DPS queue experience consists of three sword icons sitting there waiting |
| 22:44.34 | Djane | The ratio is somewhere between less than 1 in 3 to greater than 1 in 10 |
| 22:44.37 | hylje | also re faceroll tanking, why is it tanks shouldn't try to DPS while tanking? isn't more DPS more DPS, even if more DPS isn't absolutely required for threat? |
| 22:44.43 | Amarande | once thought "Disgruntled DPS Trio" might be a good name for a guild. |
| 22:44.46 | Djane | hylje, because why bother? |
| 22:44.53 | hylje | more dps is more dps? |
| 22:44.55 | Djane | Short of progression raiding, it doesn't matter. |
| 22:45.13 | hylje | and isn't it slightly less boring than just not doing anything at all? |
| 22:45.20 | Djane | Because putting 100% of your effort into doing damage and still not doing more than 50% of the most lazy dps isn't particularly interesting |
| 22:45.26 | Djane | I'd rather hit crusader strike and watch a film |
| 22:45.30 | Djane | or play a shadowpriest. |
| 22:45.45 | Djane | If it matters, then hell yeah, I'm hitting ALL THE BUTTONS as hard as I can |
| 22:45.55 | Djane | But since it only ever matters on progression raiding, then... |
| 22:46.09 | hylje | oh right |
| 22:46.23 | Djane | You're comparing doing nothin with doing something |
| 22:46.30 | Djane | When in reality it's doing something else verses doing something |
| 22:46.46 | Djane | When I tank I'm either watching a film, reading a book, or preparing for my next game of DnD. |
| 22:46.53 | Djane | Or it's progression, and my heads in the game. |
| 22:47.10 | Djane | (and obviously, what is progression is individual. If you've only just hit 85, dungeons are progression for you) |
| 22:47.10 | hylje | so tanks just need moar dips |
| 22:47.19 | Djane | tanks need their dps to MEAN something. |
| 22:47.27 | Djane | And it used to be it meant threat. |
| 22:47.46 | hylje | they kind of have the idea with vengeance etc boosting DPS when you actually tank something, but apparently not |
| 22:47.50 | Djane | In T11, you had to go BALLS TO THE WALL, you needed offensive stats AND you needed to be good to keep up with the top tier raiders. |
| 22:47.55 | Djane | That's the problem hylje |
| 22:48.02 | Djane | when you had twice the attack power of people at T11 |
| 22:48.06 | Djane | You kind of gave no shit |
| 22:48.20 | Djane | It's levelled out somewhat now, but in T11 it was like, yeah, 24k attack power. |
| 22:48.24 | hylje | that was where i was playing at |
| 22:48.24 | Djane | Cool story, tell me another. |
| 22:48.39 | Djane | Then they nerfed vengence, but buffed threat. |
| 22:48.41 | Djane | so you did less damage |
| 22:48.48 | Djane | At which point it's like, Le sigh. |
| 22:48.53 | Djane | Not to mention on any fight with a tank fight |
| 22:48.59 | Djane | tank switch* |
| 22:49.15 | hylje | whatever was the problem with meaningful vengeance |
| 22:49.22 | Djane | Tanks did too much damage in pvp |
| 22:49.24 | Djane | (le sigh) |
| 22:49.41 | Djane | Having played every tank to 85, and geared it up |
| 22:49.49 | Djane | All I can say is this : The only one that's remotely interesting is DK's |
| 22:49.55 | Djane | Because they actually have input on whether or not they survive |
| 22:49.57 | hylje | and coding vengeance to not give ridiculous AP (or at all) in PVP was too hard |
| 22:50.02 | hylje | yep sounds like blizzard |
| 22:50.10 | Djane | Paladins are rofleasy |
| 22:50.16 | Djane | Druids are Got swipe? No problem |
| 22:50.25 | Djane | Warriors are just like paladins, but better. |
| 22:50.30 | Djane | At least Dk's have to heal themselves. |
| 22:50.38 | hylje | got swipe and that bleeding swipe on a macro? no problem TWICE |
| 22:50.42 | Djane | Precisely. |
| 22:50.51 | Djane | This all said |
| 22:50.54 | Djane | I haven't tanked since firelands |
| 22:50.59 | Djane | Because : Well, it's boring as fuck |
| 22:51.04 | Djane | Now I shadowpriest, like a boss |
| 22:52.36 | hylje | yeah, was fun stacking pulverize for tanking while it lasted |
| 22:52.48 | hylje | since crit = moar hp |
| 22:53.42 | Djane | Yup |
| 22:53.46 | Djane | Well, kind of. |
| 22:54.13 | hylje | and doing streams of hilariously big numbers |
| 22:54.28 | hylje | with some 40% crit and vengeance ap |
| 22:55.36 | hylje | i started that druid around wotlk so i also experienced some hilarious Got Swipe? action with no cooldowns on the way |
| 22:55.44 | hylje | how to tank: swipe |
| 22:57.06 | hylje | all day erry global cooldown |
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