00:00.18 | *** join/#wowwiki Sandwichman2448 (n=cyrillpi@177.35.189.72.cfl.res.rr.com) |
00:07.41 | pcj | rounded tabs imo |
00:07.49 | pcj | more like the new portals |
00:14.05 | DuTempete | bah |
00:14.20 | DuTempete | I'll give that a shot once I have all the pages up |
00:22.54 | *** join/#wowwiki Kirkburn (n=Kirkburn@77-99-230-64.cable.ubr06.azte.blueyonder.co.uk) |
00:22.54 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+o Kirkburn] by ChanServ |
00:24.08 | bleeter | Kirkburn: so what's with the DB connection issues recently? I thought the move to Wikia was to alleviate that kinda stuff |
00:24.34 | Kirkburn | What connection issues? |
00:25.11 | bleeter | I've been getting the 'too many connections' error page more frequently recently |
00:25.31 | Sandwichman2448 | http://www.wowwiki.com/WoWWiki_talk:Village_pump#WW_Problems.3F I found this too. |
00:25.37 | Kirkburn | When is recently? There was a bug recently that caused it |
00:25.49 | bleeter | last night *my time), less than 12 hours ago |
00:26.10 | Kirkburn | Well, about 12 hours ago there was a Wikia-wide maintenance |
00:26.31 | bleeter | hmm, odd that it threw up the 'too many connections' error page then, agreed? |
00:26.40 | bleeter | thoghu I guess that's a generic thing if it can't chat to the DB |
00:26.47 | DuTempete | the maintenance shouldn't have affected us, though |
00:26.54 | Kirkburn | We still haven't moved entirely to Wikia's systems, that's an ongoing process |
00:27.09 | Kirkburn | DuTempete, that I'm not sure about |
00:27.24 | Kirkburn | We're halfway through migration |
00:27.28 | DuTempete | That's just what I heard :P |
00:27.33 | bleeter | Kirkburn: was no biggie, really, just thought I'd mention it in passwing. yeah, what Sandwichman2448 linked there is good ;) |
00:27.37 | Kirkburn | oh :) |
00:28.23 | Kirkburn | Yeah, I would expect some odd things atm, since the techs will be tweaking things |
00:34.11 | Sandwichman2448 | Odd how? Just slow? |
00:35.16 | Kirkburn | I cannot say |
00:39.24 | Kirkburn | Cool (and very large) photo - http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/gallery/images/shuttle/sts-123/hires/iss016e032312.jpg |
00:42.26 | Sandwichman2448 | I added my thoughts to the Portals! section of the Village pump. |
00:42.30 | Sandwichman2448 | http://www.wowwiki.com/WoWWiki_talk:Village_pump#Portals.21 |
00:49.18 | Kalroth | Kirkburn: Yeah, that's where they spotted the mp3 player ;) |
00:50.27 | Kirkburn | Kalroth, :) |
00:50.49 | Kirkburn | Sandwichman2448, yeah saw it - not sure how to deal with it |
00:51.03 | Sandwichman2448 | Deal with what? |
00:52.51 | Sandwichman2448 | I said a few points... |
00:52.53 | Kirkburn | The similarity of the portals |
00:52.58 | Kirkburn | All of them :P |
00:54.03 | Sandwichman2448 | Understood. |
01:08.02 | *** join/#wowwiki Tralla (n=Harald@brln-4db9596b.pool.einsundeins.de) |
01:10.49 | *** join/#wowwiki pcj_2 (n=pcjjenks@pdpc/supporter/active/pcj) |
01:10.49 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+v pcj_2] by ChanServ |
01:29.52 | *** part/#wowwiki SandwichmanAFK (n=cyrillpi@177.35.189.72.cfl.res.rr.com) |
01:41.42 | *** join/#wowwiki Slackwise (n=Lance@c-98-226-38-53.hsd1.il.comcast.net) |
01:58.37 | *** join/#wowwiki Thrae (n=Thrae@pool-72-81-214-103.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net) |
01:58.37 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+v Thrae] by ChanServ |
02:02.12 | *** join/#wowwiki Mike-N-Go (n=MikeNGoS@64.193.93.197) |
02:55.52 | *** join/#wowwiki Hobinheim (n=Hobinhei@207-38-224-183.c3-0.43d-ubr9.qens-43d.ny.cable.rcn.com) |
02:55.52 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+o Hobinheim] by ChanServ |
03:30.53 | *** join/#wowwiki Zeksie (n=zeksie@cpc2-nott9-0-0-cust211.nott.cable.ntl.com) |
03:51.32 | *** join/#wowwiki Lukian (i=wizard@203.171.70.21) |
04:18.00 | *** join/#wowwiki pcj_2 (n=pcjjenks@pdpc/supporter/active/pcj) |
04:18.00 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+v pcj_2] by ChanServ |
04:48.17 | *** join/#wowwiki uruloki (n=uruloki@pool-72-64-36-116.nrflva.east.verizon.net) |
04:48.43 | uruloki | greetings all |
04:51.09 | *** part/#wowwiki uruloki (n=uruloki@pool-72-64-36-116.nrflva.east.verizon.net) |
05:02.46 | *** join/#wowwiki dJe781 (n=dje781@ves78-1-89-85-60-113.dsl.club-internet.fr) |
05:18.33 | pcj | slaps kd3 |
05:18.41 | pcj | slaps Adys |
05:18.49 | pcj | http://www.wowwiki.com/Special:Contributions/Fuck_Angela_Beesley_because_she_is_an_evil_deceptinazi_bitch_blocker_and_illegally_makes_sure_Assaulthead_cant_come_back_to_wikia |
05:18.49 | pcj | slaps Kirkburn|afk |
05:19.19 | Charitwo | oh dear |
05:22.42 | Charitwo | thanks Kirkburn|afk |
05:23.49 | Kirkburn|afk | Yay for cascading protection |
05:27.17 | Kirkburn|afk | Ping me if he returns |
05:27.34 | Charitwo | would have noticed him earlier if wowwiki was on the rc feed >_> |
05:27.55 | Kirkburn|afk | Yeah, well ... codebase merge ... sometime |
05:28.23 | DuTempete | you don't want wowwiki on the RC feed |
05:28.31 | pcj | lol |
05:28.45 | Charitwo | Kirkburn|afk: got any heads up on that? |
05:28.49 | Kirkburn|afk | We'd have our own one |
05:29.04 | Kirkburn|afk | Heads up is: this week is the /plan/ |
05:29.14 | Charitwo | DuTempete: if I can handle uncyclopedia and wikia as a whole i can handle wowwiki |
05:29.19 | WoWTempete | Hey, leave my Kirkburn alone, he's off the clock :P |
05:29.22 | WoWTempete | and letting med ie :P |
05:29.27 | WoWTempete | *me die |
05:29.33 | Kirkburn|afk | One day other things won't have to come first |
05:30.26 | WoWTempete | what other things before what? |
05:30.31 | Kirkburn|afk | Charitwo, WoWWiki is about a 1/3 of the Wikia traffic :P |
05:30.46 | Kirkburn|afk | e.g. the Wikia database maintenance of this morning |
05:31.02 | Kirkburn|afk | Other things keep cropping up, pushing us back |
05:31.04 | Charitwo | Kirkburn|afk: i think I can handle it :) |
05:31.09 | WoWTempete | ah |
05:31.49 | Charitwo | pokes Kirkburn|afk about rollback |
05:31.53 | Kirkburn|afk | Charitwo, yeah, at least we have anon edits off |
05:31.58 | Kirkburn|afk | What about rollback? |
05:32.14 | Kirkburn|afk | You want rollback on wowwiki? |
05:32.15 | Charitwo | oh you said you'd give me rollback when the wiki merged |
05:32.53 | WoWTempete | what rollback and what do you need it for? |
05:33.26 | Charitwo | WoWTempete: you haven't seen my global contribs have you :P |
05:33.41 | WoWTempete | so? |
05:34.52 | Kirkburn|afk | Aaanyway, yes |
05:35.33 | Kirkburn|afk | I don't remember that conversation, but I don't see why not |
05:35.50 | Kirkburn|afk | Everyone in the patroller group has rollback now, which is like 30 people |
05:37.33 | pcj | *does the patroller dance* |
05:37.41 | WoWTempete | giggles at pcj. |
05:48.19 | Fisker- | threatens people |
05:49.17 | Charitwo | O_O |
06:17.06 | *** join/#wowwiki Beer-Bot_v8-18 (n=sadjflk@c-71-235-150-169.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
06:48.07 | Adys | ping pcj |
06:48.17 | Adys | er, pong |
06:55.58 | Kirkburn|afk | Adys, it was that vandal again |
06:57.53 | PanSola | or at least a vandal who does it in simiilar style |
06:58.14 | PanSola | could be someone else just trying to mimick |
06:58.52 | MentalPower | yeah, it was me, I was bored |
06:58.53 | MentalPower | j/k |
06:59.53 | MentalPower | well, half joking, since I am bored |
07:03.54 | *** join/#wowwiki WyriHaximus2nd (n=WyriHaxi@62.58.132.42) |
07:04.21 | *** join/#wowwiki Nolook (n=chatzill@netblock-68-183-40-143.dslextreme.com) |
07:11.49 | *** join/#wowwiki Srosh (n=Srosh@c136233.adsl.hansenet.de) |
07:19.01 | Adys | Kirkburn|afk: what's the point of cascading protection btw? |
07:19.12 | Adys | it's not like they cant recreate another page with almost the same name |
07:19.20 | Kirkburn|afk | Means we don't have to do anything to the talk page |
07:20.29 | Adys | *doesnt get it* |
07:20.50 | Kirkburn|afk | Cascading protection means any page transcluded on that page is also protected |
07:21.01 | Adys | yeah i know what it does to the page |
07:21.06 | Adys | i just dont understand why we do it |
07:21.21 | Kirkburn|afk | Vandals can edit their talk page even when banned |
07:21.36 | Kirkburn|afk | This way means we don't have to create and protect those pages |
07:22.08 | Adys | oh |
07:22.12 | Adys | wtf |
07:22.30 | Adys | its always been like that? |
07:22.45 | Kirkburn|afk | No, I requested it a few months back |
07:22.48 | Adys | ah |
07:22.55 | Adys | would be nice to have a toggle for vandals |
07:23.02 | Adys | "able to edit talk page" or something |
07:23.04 | Adys | *shrugs* |
07:23.13 | Adys | btw! in other good news |
07:23.19 | Kirkburn|afk | Yeah, but unfortunately no :( |
07:23.25 | Adys | Saving edits in firebug is in the google summer of code project for mozilla |
07:34.39 | Kirkburn|afk | I don't know what that is, but yay! |
07:40.48 | Adys | you sir never used firebug? |
07:40.53 | Adys | :( |
07:43.53 | *** join/#wowwiki laurly (n=laurly@0x50a4082e.vgnxx4.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk) |
07:46.57 | *** join/#wowwiki Guardix (i=martin_j@87.59.121.179) |
07:57.38 | *** join/#wowwiki Daworm (n=Daworm@wikia/Daworm) |
08:00.05 | Fisker- | a shame google should be extorted by the european government for money just for the heck of it |
08:00.10 | Fisker- | like they do with Microsoft |
08:00.27 | Fisker- | I guess they'll switch when they run out of invalid reasons or money to blackmail microsoft |
08:00.57 | laurly | wont happen to easy to find valid reasons. |
08:01.23 | Fisker- | nah |
08:11.47 | Fisker- | btw Adys |
08:11.52 | Fisker- | you going to that WWI stuff? |
08:11.55 | Adys | yes |
08:12.30 | Fisker- | :O |
08:12.35 | Adys | if you think about coming too, Im bringing a knife |
08:13.01 | Fisker- | i doubt it |
08:13.23 | Fisker- | wouldn't have the money anyways |
08:16.25 | Fisker- | hmm |
08:16.30 | Fisker- | "We have a beta coming up" |
08:16.36 | Adys | yeah yeah |
08:16.39 | Fisker- | That sounds like something you'd say if it was going to be soon |
08:17.26 | Adys | "Exclusively play Wrath of the Lich King at the WWI" |
08:17.32 | Adys | "The 28th and 29th of June" |
08:17.36 | Adys | does that tell you something |
08:17.44 | Fisker- | no :( |
08:18.04 | Fisker- | other than the wotlk might not be that soon :o |
08:18.11 | Adys | see |
08:18.21 | Adys | you might not have to ask microsoft to give you back your brain in the end |
08:19.55 | Fisker- | btw |
08:20.06 | Fisker- | if you saw the zerg reveal vid |
08:20.22 | Fisker- | the crystals looked identical to those in silithus |
08:20.22 | Adys | aaahhh who gives a damn about sc2 :p |
08:20.26 | Fisker- | no u :( |
08:20.35 | Fisker- | was what i was talking about btw |
08:20.48 | Fisker- | One of the devs said "We have a beta coming up" |
08:20.52 | Fisker- | And i figured that meant soon |
08:20.53 | Fisker- | rawr |
08:21.03 | Fisker- | i.e. very soon |
08:26.14 | laurly | hates nasty little bugs that take 30 min to find and 2 sec to fix. |
08:27.12 | Fisker- | you mean finding anything on google? |
08:39.20 | Kirkburn|afk | Fisker-, wow, that's some crazy defending of companies there |
08:39.52 | Kirkburn|afk | They're "blackmailing" MS and using extortion on Google? |
08:39.57 | WoWTempete | Well... Fisker- and "crazy" are synonymous, aren't they? |
08:40.24 | Fisker- | nah Kirkburn|afk only Microsoft |
08:40.31 | Kirkburn|afk | That's something I would expect an American to say, not someone who lives in the EU |
08:41.16 | Kirkburn|afk | "oh noes, socialists are trying to prevent abusive monopolies!" |
08:41.46 | WoWTempete | well, there's a difference between a take-over monopoly, and a government monopoly... |
08:41.58 | Fisker- | Yeah cause Microsoft is a monopoly |
08:42.01 | Kirkburn|afk | only MS? Why did you say: "a shame google should be extorted by the european government for money just for the heck of it" |
08:42.31 | Fisker- | Because Google is just as abusive as Microsoft is |
08:42.32 | Fisker- | if not more |
08:42.41 | WoWTempete | abusive of what? |
08:42.59 | Fisker- | "monopoly" |
08:43.06 | Kirkburn|afk | There's abusing a monopoly and creating one |
08:43.16 | WoWTempete | yeah... I'm totally feeling monopolised... with my... not using it... |
08:43.32 | Kirkburn|afk | Google has one, but it's not really "abusing" it |
08:43.37 | Fisker- | sure it is |
08:43.55 | Kirkburn|afk | How? |
08:44.26 | Fisker- | They're trying to use their position to wrongly incriminate other companies |
08:44.42 | Fisker- | Not to mention they're buying out smaller companies to use their tech for themself |
08:48.07 | Fisker- | oh and now we're at it |
08:48.26 | Fisker- | Why can't i use altavista's babelfish instead of google translate on google? |
08:48.35 | Fisker- | MONOPOLIES!11 |
08:50.05 | Kirkburn|afk | There is nothing wrong with buying other companies |
08:50.25 | Fisker- | Atleast not when anyone else than Microsoft is doing it |
08:51.37 | Kirkburn|afk | Google generally buys into new markets |
08:52.11 | Kirkburn|afk | That Google has somewhat of a search monopoly is self-made, and there's nothing wrong with that |
08:52.27 | Kirkburn|afk | If they used that position to shut out competitors - then there's a problem |
08:52.35 | Fisker- | They are |
08:52.41 | Kirkburn|afk | How? |
08:52.44 | Fisker- | I can't use altavista's babelfish on google translate |
08:52.51 | Adys | small correction, google usually creates their own stuff, and if it fails horribly like google pics or google vids they buy other markets :P |
08:53.10 | Kirkburn|afk | Fisker-, well duh, that's not shutting someone out |
08:53.12 | Adys | as for google translate, it's not compatible with babelfish or anything since the core is way different |
08:53.20 | Fisker- | Kirkburn|afk yes it is |
08:53.25 | Adys | It's assimilated translation |
08:53.31 | Adys | babelfish is dictionary translation |
08:53.43 | Fisker- | man Adys write that in an email to Microsoft |
08:53.47 | Fisker- | i got an idea for Windows 7 |
08:53.53 | Adys | you do |
08:53.58 | Adys | steve.ballmer@microsoft.com |
08:53.59 | Fisker- | så make it incompatible in the core with any apps not from Microsoft |
08:54.00 | Adys | glhf |
08:54.05 | Fisker- | instant win @ antitrust lawsuits |
08:54.11 | Kirkburn|afk | Fisker-, Google not having the babaelfish option does not prevent you from using babelfish |
08:54.19 | Fisker- | No it does not |
08:54.37 | Adys | doesnt understand fisker's point |
08:54.39 | Fisker- | Microsoft having Windows Media Player embedded in Windows does not prevent you from using another piece of software either |
08:54.44 | Kirkburn|afk | However, MS bundling IE does prevent Netscape from competing as it requires that which IE was bundled with |
08:54.57 | Fisker- | No it does not |
08:55.12 | Adys | it does fisker actually |
08:55.17 | Kirkburn|afk | Aye, it does |
08:55.18 | Adys | since some core windows apps use IE |
08:55.24 | Adys | and you cannot change that |
08:55.26 | Fisker- | no |
08:55.29 | Fisker- | It uses mshtml |
08:55.42 | Adys | good game, which is bundled with IE |
08:55.48 | Fisker- | not really |
08:55.52 | Fisker- | it's bundled with Windows |
08:56.09 | Kirkburn|afk | The bundling of WMP is not so clear cut, but it still prevent compeition, as you cannot compete with a free product without being significantly better ... i.e. how Firefox manages it |
08:56.13 | Adys | Not getting into another stupid argument, keep your illusions :P |
08:56.37 | Fisker- | Kirkburn|afk not their problem |
08:56.40 | Kirkburn|afk | And certain parts of Windows force the use of WMP |
08:56.40 | Fisker- | make better alternatives |
08:56.43 | Fisker- | You said it yourself |
08:56.44 | Adys | by the way, there is nothing wrong with microsoft buying other companies |
08:56.50 | Fisker- | I don't have to use google translate |
08:56.51 | Adys | its what they do with them that can get wrong |
08:56.53 | Adys | hello hotmail |
08:56.54 | laurly | hopes adys continues shes rather enjoying this entertainment |
08:56.57 | Kirkburn|afk | Adys, exactly |
08:56.57 | Fisker- | You don't have to use windows media player |
08:57.08 | Fisker- | Adys no but it's still a factor in antitrust lawsuits |
08:57.31 | Adys | factor is not what they buy but what they do to them :/ |
08:57.46 | Adys | its not like OMG MS IS BUYING A COMPANY SUE SUE SUE |
08:57.46 | Fisker- | The same |
08:57.53 | Fisker- | almost Adys |
08:58.01 | Adys | keyword is almost |
08:58.10 | Fisker- | Again that is the point |
08:58.17 | Kirkburn|afk | "In Economics, monopoly (also "Pure monopoly") exists when a specific individual or enterprise has sufficient control over a particular product or service to determine significantly the terms on which other individuals shall have access to it." |
08:58.17 | Fisker- | There's a prejudice against Microsoft |
08:58.26 | Fisker- | but in reality google, apple and microsoft are pretty comparable |
08:58.35 | Fisker- | They're both "abusing their monopoly" |
08:58.37 | Fisker- | err |
08:58.39 | Fisker- | all 3* |
08:58.47 | Kirkburn|afk | Not really, as Apple does not have a monopoly in the same sense |
08:58.50 | Adys | Hows Apple abusing any monopoly wtf? |
08:58.52 | Fisker- | atleast if you are to take idiots like the eu commision into it |
08:58.56 | Kirkburn|afk | And Google certainly doesn't have one in the same sense |
08:59.12 | Fisker- | itunes for one |
08:59.15 | Kirkburn|afk | PCs comes with Windows, the internet doesn't "come" with Google |
08:59.15 | Adys | actually, what monopoly does apple have? |
08:59.22 | Adys | they have the majority with itunes/ipod |
08:59.25 | Adys | but no way a monopoly |
08:59.31 | Fisker- | noone has a monopoly |
08:59.41 | Kirkburn|afk | Read the definition above Fisker |
08:59.50 | Kirkburn|afk | Monopoly =/= 100% |
08:59.50 | Fisker- | PCs don't come with Windows either |
09:00.01 | Adys | aye kirk |
09:00.09 | Kirkburn|afk | For an average consumer, yes they do |
09:00.21 | Fisker- | And the average consumer knows google anyways |
09:00.29 | Fisker- | so the internet comes with google cause that's all they know |
09:00.33 | Adys | thats less true than you think fisker |
09:00.40 | Kirkburn|afk | That certainly doesn't make it a monopoly |
09:00.52 | Fisker- | Neither does Microsoft having a big marketshare |
09:01.07 | Adys | A monopoly is not a monopoly until you abuse it |
09:01.23 | Adys | thats not the exact definition but thats a pretty solid standard |
09:01.26 | Fisker- | If you're complaining about bundling on PC's it's vendors like Dell and whatever that has a problem, not Microsoft |
09:01.51 | Fisker- | Adys and Microsoft is not abusing their "monopoly" any more than Google or Apple are |
09:01.56 | Adys | (dell's one of the only vendors selling PCs bundled with linux, got any better comparison? :P) |
09:02.12 | Fisker- | That's only recently they begun to do that |
09:02.22 | Adys | Apple does NOT have any monopoly at all |
09:02.30 | Fisker- | they have |
09:02.33 | Fisker- | cause they're abusing it |
09:02.47 | Adys | They dont control the musical market |
09:02.49 | Adys | in no way they do |
09:02.55 | Kirkburn|afk | You have to have a monopoly to abuse, too |
09:03.05 | Fisker- | oh ok |
09:03.08 | Fisker- | So you agree :) |
09:03.15 | Fisker- | Microsoft has no monopoly, and thus cannot abuse it |
09:03.18 | Kirkburn|afk | Actually, I would give him the iTunes/iPod thing |
09:03.36 | Adys | *shrugs* |
09:03.46 | Adys | matter of opinion i guess |
09:03.51 | laurly | sudenly remembers to plug in her ipod. |
09:03.52 | Kirkburn|afk | It's not the same extent of MS/Windows though |
09:04.02 | Adys | and fisker, here are two things for you |
09:04.16 | Fisker- | Not a matter of opinion at all |
09:04.30 | Adys | A monopoly is not a 100% status, it's the "I have enough market to control the way things go" status |
09:04.32 | Adys | and SECONDLY |
09:04.34 | Fisker- | Microsoft is being incorrectly targeted by the EU for significant amounts of money without valid reasons |
09:04.39 | Adys | a monopoly does NOT matter until its abused |
09:04.39 | Kirkburn|afk | The bundling of IE and WMP in Windows makes marketing such products nigh-on impossible |
09:04.56 | Kirkburn|afk | Fisker-, *you* think they aren't valid reasons, but many do |
09:05.04 | Fisker- | no |
09:05.20 | Fisker- | You think that these problems only exist at Microsoft |
09:05.23 | Fisker- | They don't |
09:05.26 | Kirkburn|afk | How can you say it's so black and white? |
09:05.34 | Fisker- | Any and all companies have a goal, that goal is monopoly |
09:05.42 | Adys | No |
09:05.43 | Kirkburn|afk | Profit, actually |
09:05.45 | Adys | The goal is profit |
09:05.46 | Adys | yeah |
09:05.47 | Fisker- | yes |
09:05.53 | Fisker- | and the best profit = monopoly |
09:05.55 | Adys | monopoly does not equal profit you know |
09:06.00 | Fisker- | yes it does |
09:06.06 | Adys | thats a first grade way to think. |
09:06.08 | Fisker- | When you have a monopoly you can set the price |
09:06.10 | Fisker- | no it's not |
09:06.26 | Fisker- | You're trying to defend something which you cannot defend by trying to redefine the world |
09:06.38 | Adys | Yes it is, if you've ever taken economy classes it's something you learn very early on |
09:06.38 | Kirkburn|afk | The two are of course linked, but not so strongly |
09:07.01 | Fisker- | Adys i guess that's why all the succesful companies are oldschool then |
09:07.21 | Adys | Long term profit, do you know what that is? |
09:07.42 | Adys | anyone here can tell you google has more value than microsoft |
09:07.51 | Fisker- | Most likely |
09:08.06 | Adys | Yet microsoft has twenty times google'`s revenue |
09:08.10 | Kirkburn|afk | Well, er ... actually, I would disagree there. Microsoft has a far wider product range |
09:08.33 | Kirkburn|afk | If the advertising market collapses, Google will have a lot of trouble |
09:08.45 | Kirkburn|afk | MS can survive many different market collapses |
09:08.50 | Adys | except the advertising market is the most stable market in the world hehe |
09:08.54 | Fisker- | Well if EU keeps harassing Microsoft they'll collapse as well |
09:09.00 | Kirkburn|afk | On the internet, not so much |
09:09.11 | Kirkburn|afk | A couple of billion to MS is nothing |
09:09.25 | Fisker- | No |
09:09.29 | Kirkburn|afk | If it was worrying them, they'd be doing more about it |
09:09.30 | Adys | it's not much to google either |
09:09.34 | Fisker- | But they keep "forgetting" about it |
09:09.47 | Kirkburn|afk | Exactly, i.e. it's not important |
09:09.50 | Fisker- | "OH oops, we just forgot to fine you â¬2 billion for minesweeper" |
09:10.01 | Kirkburn|afk | Wait, you're saying the EU forgets? |
09:10.05 | Fisker- | You know minesweeper puts other gamecompanies out of a job |
09:10.22 | Kirkburn|afk | Exaggeration doesn't win arguments |
09:10.47 | Fisker- | I'm saying that the EU have no antitrust case anymore |
09:10.54 | Fisker- | It was done ~5-6 years ago |
09:11.11 | Kirkburn|afk | True, but do you forgive a crime if it occured a few years ago? |
09:11.30 | Kirkburn|afk | Someone stole your TV last year: when do you forgive them? |
09:11.41 | Adys | ok, just one question |
09:11.44 | Fisker- | Microsoft didn't stole my TV |
09:11.46 | Fisker- | or EU's tv |
09:11.47 | Kirkburn|afk | It's 7 years later - is it then "okay"? |
09:11.47 | Adys | Fisker-: why exactly are you acting like that |
09:11.58 | Adys | are you steve ballmer's family, or employeed by microsoft? |
09:12.02 | Adys | (sp) |
09:12.09 | Fisker- | Kirkburn|afk is it ok if i put you in yail for a year for stealing a tv |
09:12.25 | Fisker- | and then put you in jail for another year when you've finished serving your sentence? |
09:12.34 | Fisker- | and then another year when you have finished that "sentence" |
09:12.37 | Fisker- | and then another |
09:12.38 | Kirkburn|afk | Okay, my allegory was that you can't say "well it happened a few years ago, it's old news now" |
09:12.47 | Fisker- | It wasn't what i was saying |
09:13.10 | Kirkburn|afk | How about we use the idea of speeding fines then |
09:13.16 | Fisker- | no Adys i'm employed by sanity |
09:13.31 | Kirkburn|afk | You can stack speeding fines if you keep not doing anything about the fact you're speeding |
09:13.57 | Kirkburn|afk | (since wer are talking about fines here, not prison sentences) |
09:14.23 | Fisker- | That's not relevant |
09:14.29 | Fisker- | Microsoft did do something about it |
09:14.33 | Fisker- | and they did pay their fines |
09:14.44 | Fisker- | and at that moment i consider the matter to be dealt with |
09:15.34 | Fisker- | They have nothing to complain about anymore, bundling your software isn't a crime and it's just as much used with people like google and apple |
09:15.37 | Kirkburn|afk | MS didn't release the info the commission wanted by the deadline iirc |
09:15.44 | Fisker- | no |
09:15.48 | Fisker- | And they were fined for that |
09:16.13 | Kirkburn|afk | The problem wasn't bundling software, it was having a monopoly, bundling software, and using that to shut out competition |
09:16.34 | Adys | Fisker-: honestly man, it's no use crying over MS getting fined for invalid reasons, it wont change anything to you and you certainly wont change our opinions |
09:16.44 | Adys | if you want, go ahead and find the money to sue google and apple |
09:16.50 | Adys | just my own words |
09:16.52 | Fisker- | nah |
09:17.14 | Fisker- | You know at this level it's not about being right or wrong anymore |
09:17.20 | Fisker- | It's what people deem to be right or wrong |
09:17.24 | Fisker- | which is my point to begin with |
09:17.49 | Fisker- | It wasn't easy to use other software than the Microsoft default in the beginning |
09:17.51 | Fisker- | and they fixed that |
09:18.22 | Kirkburn|afk | Yes, because of the EU's and US govt. interventions |
09:18.37 | Fisker- | yes |
09:18.49 | Kirkburn|afk | A lot of this litigation is from those days |
09:19.03 | Fisker- | That doesn't make it any less right |
09:19.12 | Fisker- | Microsoft followed up on their decision |
09:19.19 | Fisker- | and if they didn't they paid for it, and then followed up on it |
09:21.29 | Kirkburn|afk | I'm still not sure why you think the EU "needs" MS or Google's money |
09:21.43 | Kirkburn|afk | The EU's budget is huge |
09:22.09 | Kirkburn|afk | The reason why the numbers are large is because it won't actualyl mean anything to the companies otherwise |
09:22.38 | Kirkburn|afk | Plus, the business' they're shutting out would actually have those kinds of numbers |
09:22.57 | Fisker- | i'm not saying they need it |
09:23.06 | Fisker- | I'm just saying they don't have any valid reasons to have it |
09:23.27 | Kirkburn|afk | But they do, as the fines are from the days when MS didn't comply |
09:24.02 | Fisker- | yeah with stuff they shouldn't have to comply with |
09:24.05 | Fisker- | like the WMP case |
09:24.55 | Fisker- | They're basically telling Microsoft to treat their customers worse |
09:25.04 | Fisker- | or get a big fine |
09:25.59 | Kirkburn|afk | I do agree that the WMP case is not as clear cut as the IE case, but it still shut out competition, and WMP was strongly integrated into Windows |
09:27.08 | Fisker- | It wasn't at all strongly integrated, the only thing there were about the whole "strongly integrated" thing was that it was hard for third party companies to replace Microsoft products |
09:27.14 | Kirkburn|afk | That there was an existing market likely played a big part in it |
09:27.29 | Kirkburn|afk | That is exactly why it was a problem |
09:27.40 | Kirkburn|afk | It was hard to replace, which it should not have been |
09:27.48 | Fisker- | Which is wasn't |
09:27.52 | Fisker- | And it wasn't the problem either |
09:28.01 | Fisker- | The problem was the online store they had also integrated in WMP |
09:28.53 | Fisker- | But again it is no different than iTunes having their iTunes store |
09:28.53 | Kirkburn|afk | In March 2004, the European Commission in the European Union Microsoft antitrust case fined Microsoft â¬497 million and ordered the company to provide a version of Windows without Windows Media Player, claiming Microsoft "broke European Union competition law by leveraging its near monopoly in the market for PC operating systems onto the markets for work group server operating systems and for media players". |
09:30.07 | Kirkburn|afk | Apple doesn't have a monopoly to leverage though, apart from on Apple PCs ... I don't agree with the closed model they operate, but it's onyl a monopoly within Apples section of the marketplace |
09:32.59 | Kirkburn|afk | This would be a good article to read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Microsoft_antitrust_case |
09:38.48 | Fisker- | nah |
09:38.54 | Fisker- | The legal documents are better to read |
09:39.30 | Fisker- | Which does mention the online store as a problem |
09:39.41 | Fisker- | But it is certainly not the integration that is a problem |
09:39.47 | Fisker- | but rather the windows media format |
09:39.58 | Kirkburn|afk | If that was the case, wouldn't that article say such? |
09:40.07 | Fisker- | which still doesn't have anything to do with the Windows Media Player |
09:40.14 | Fisker- | It's wikipedia |
09:40.52 | Kirkburn|afk | So, I should trust you over everyone who's edited that article? |
09:41.03 | Fisker- | You can read the legal documents yourself |
09:42.09 | Fisker- | page 32 and down |
09:42.28 | Fisker- | The main issue is the Windows Media format |
09:42.53 | Fisker- | but it also talks a bit about the windows media store or whatever it was called |
09:44.33 | Kirkburn|afk | So ... your point is? |
09:45.06 | Kirkburn|afk | I've not commented on what the exact WMP was, just that one existed |
09:45.16 | Kirkburn|afk | *exact WMP problem |
09:45.29 | Fisker- | It's not a WMP problem |
09:45.35 | Fisker- | It's a WM problem |
09:46.08 | Kirkburn|afk | You're using semantics? |
09:46.30 | Fisker- | No |
09:46.41 | Kirkburn|afk | The store is accessed via WMP, and WM files are played ... via WMP |
09:47.14 | Fisker- | The store is accessed via iTunes, and apple drm files are played, via iTunes |
09:47.27 | Fisker- | When we're talking Windows Media the player isn't an issue |
09:48.01 | Fisker- | The problem was that other developers would have a hard time making players able to play Windows Media format |
09:48.57 | Fisker- | And removing WMP from Windows wouldn't have any effect on that |
09:49.04 | Kirkburn|afk | Why, exactly, do the Wikipedia articles not mention that? |
09:49.15 | Fisker- | I don't know |
09:49.19 | Kirkburn|afk | They all mention WMP as a whole |
09:49.40 | Kirkburn|afk | "In 2003â2004, the European Commission investigated the bundling of Windows Media Player into Windows, a practice which rivals complained was destroying the market for their own products." |
09:51.38 | Kirkburn|afk | Probably another link to read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Microsoft#Government_anti-trust_suits |
09:53.00 | Fisker- | http://www.news.com/Is-EU-looking-at-yesterdays-Microsoft/2100-1025_3-5171067.html |
09:53.03 | Kirkburn|afk | Whether ot not it was specific parts of WMP that were the problem, the way it was bundled violated competition, as MS used it's dominant position in the OS market to push it's way into the Media Player market |
09:54.03 | Kirkburn|afk | Same response as earlier: at what point do you forgive something breaking the law? |
09:54.18 | Fisker- | Just like google used it's dominant position on the search engine market to push their way into the video market |
09:54.35 | Kirkburn|afk | No, they used their money to buy Youtube o_O |
09:54.48 | Fisker- | Microsoft used their money to develop Windows Media |
09:54.50 | Kirkburn|afk | Using Google search doesn't force you to use Youtube |
09:54.59 | Fisker- | Neither does Windows |
09:55.00 | Kirkburn|afk | Using Windows does force you to use WMP |
09:55.04 | Fisker- | no |
09:55.49 | Fisker- | It did to some extent in the past, but making an version of Windows where WMP isn't bundled isn't what fixes that |
09:56.27 | Fisker- | The "progam access and defaults" and the windows media SDK is what fixed that |
09:56.57 | Fisker- | If i search on google i'll also be prompted by google video and youtube links, though i may not want them |
09:57.11 | Kirkburn|afk | So exactly what are we arguing about? You're arguing with me saying what MS once did, by saying they're not doing it now |
09:57.28 | Fisker- | so you are indeed being just as much forced to use youtube as consumers are being forced to use WMP |
09:57.40 | Kirkburn|afk | Whatever they're doing right now, MS did break the law when this whole EU issue flared up |
09:57.40 | Fisker- | Kirkburn|afk i'm saying that removing WMP is irrelevant |
09:57.56 | Fisker- | That was the whole point of the discussion |
09:58.05 | Fisker- | EU harassing Microsoft with invalid reasons |
09:58.58 | Fisker- | EU have basically harassed Microsoft into treating their customers worse by making it more difficult to make a choice about their operating system, and perhaps leaving them in a situation where the customer can't playback video |
09:59.05 | Kirkburn|afk | Again, the EU thing is not based around the current situation |
09:59.25 | Kirkburn|afk | It is all based around MS not complying with stuff from years ago |
09:59.33 | Fisker- | The customer chooses a N version and doesn't have internet, or doesn't know better? Oh then you can't play video, ownt. |
09:59.59 | Kirkburn|afk | The customer will be in the full knowledge that that is the case |
10:00.16 | Fisker- | no he will not |
10:00.26 | Fisker- | Because Microsoft defined operating systems |
10:00.27 | Kirkburn|afk | What kind of odd world do you live in? |
10:00.40 | Fisker- | The world where not every person is a genius |
10:00.44 | Fisker- | i.e. the real world |
10:00.45 | Kirkburn|afk | What will the N mean to the consumer? What will it say on the box? "Noodle"? |
10:01.02 | Fisker- | The consumer doesn't know jackshit about the N |
10:01.16 | Kirkburn|afk | Why the hell would that have to be the case? |
10:01.27 | Fisker- | Why wouldn't it? |
10:02.01 | Kirkburn|afk | because the freakin EU said provide a copy with media player ... you think MS are going to put the N version out there and not say how it's missing stuff? |
10:02.01 | Fisker- | You've never heard people thinking the monitor is the pc? You've never heard people referring the towercasing to as a harddrive? |
10:02.09 | Kirkburn|afk | Yeah, you'd have real happy customers then |
10:03.52 | Kirkburn|afk | Someone's lack of knowledge about a PC is not an excuse to abuse a monopoly just cause it's in their best interests |
10:04.19 | Fisker- | It's not an abuse of monopoly |
10:04.23 | Kirkburn|afk | It may not be in their best interests, but I would bet it would be in the interest of everyone who works for a company making a media player for Windows |
10:04.30 | Fisker- | It's called customer service |
10:04.35 | Kirkburn|afk | "MS used it's dominant position in the OS market to push it's way into the Media Player market" |
10:04.45 | elmargol | Its called spying on users |
10:04.57 | Fisker- | That is not a Windows Media Player related issue that requires the removal of WMP |
10:05.40 | Kirkburn|afk | There was an existing market for media players that MS shut out |
10:05.58 | Kirkburn|afk | The EU commission doesn't agree with you that a media player is an integral part of an OS |
10:06.20 | Kirkburn|afk | (or at least wasn't, at the time this all occured) |
10:06.21 | Fisker- | The EU commission doesn't develop operating systems |
10:06.55 | Kirkburn|afk | No, and a judge doesn't get divorced every day, but he can still preside over the McCartney's proceedings |
10:07.21 | Kirkburn|afk | Those who hand down judgements are supposed to be impartial |
10:08.44 | Kirkburn|afk | They only need to know what an OS is, not how to develop one |
10:09.21 | Fisker- | They obviously didn't know what an OS was then since they found it crucial to remove WMP then |
10:09.25 | Kirkburn|afk | At a basic level, an OS is only supposed to provide a framework for other programs to run on it |
10:10.02 | Fisker- | At a pratical level, the way it's been since pretty much 1981 the OS will include tools |
10:10.06 | Kirkburn|afk | No, the idea wasn't to remove WMP entirely, it was to give consumers the /choice/ to remove WMP entirely |
10:10.07 | Fisker- | Anything else i would call a kernel |
10:10.39 | Fisker- | No it wasn't |
10:10.54 | Kirkburn|afk | Why, then, did they not make MS sell only Windows N? |
10:10.56 | Fisker- | cause then they would've requested Windows to be remade into an edition which could exclude Windows Media Player |
10:11.14 | Kirkburn|afk | Yes, that's Windows N o_O |
10:11.20 | Fisker- | no it's not |
10:11.23 | Fisker- | That would be Windows |
10:11.31 | Kirkburn|afk | Windows N = Windows minus WMP |
10:11.32 | Fisker- | and you would have this little checkbox "Want Windows Media player?" |
10:11.40 | Fisker- | And it would be checked off as default of course |
10:11.52 | Fisker- | So they don't abuse their checkbox monopoly! |
10:12.14 | Fisker- | Windows N is useless if the purpose was to simply give users the choice of installing WMP or not |
10:12.15 | Kirkburn|afk | Yeah, that would have been the correct solution, if MS actually wanted to allow that |
10:12.49 | Fisker- | ah ok |
10:13.04 | Fisker- | Didn't know Microsoft decided their own fate on that matter |
10:13.09 | Kirkburn|afk | They went for Windows N cause they knew no-one would buy it |
10:13.16 | Fisker- | Pretty stupid they paid all those fines if they could've just said "Ah screw it" |
10:13.22 | *** join/#wowwiki foxlit (n=foxlit@0x573e6bae.alb2nxx18.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk) |
10:13.22 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+o foxlit] by ChanServ |
10:13.54 | Kirkburn|afk | Windows N complied with what the commission wanted, whilst actually not solving the issue |
10:14.11 | Kirkburn|afk | You wonder why they're still pissed off? |
10:14.25 | Fisker- | learn2specify |
10:14.47 | Kirkburn|afk | You want the commission to exert even more control? |
10:14.55 | Kirkburn|afk | I thought you wanted them to leave MS alone? |
10:15.09 | Kirkburn|afk | You can't have it both ways |
10:15.51 | Fisker- | Their inability to make a proper ruling in the case, if that is the case, is not the fault of Microsoft's |
10:16.02 | Kirkburn|afk | Either they tell MS specifically how to develop their products, which would be insane, or they do this, and wait for MS to actually come up with a good solution |
10:16.17 | Kirkburn|afk | So, what is it, you want them to tell MS how to make software? |
10:16.31 | Fisker- | no |
10:16.42 | Kirkburn|afk | So what ruling would you have had them make? |
10:16.48 | Fisker- | If their agenda wasn't Windows N, then they should've made it so it wouldn't be like that |
10:16.50 | Fisker- | None |
10:17.05 | Kirkburn|afk | Not an option |
10:17.05 | Fisker- | Windows Media Player itself had nothing to do with being anti-competitive |
10:17.08 | Fisker- | Yes it is |
10:17.23 | Kirkburn|afk | It is, in your world, but not in the real world where MS broke the law |
10:17.45 | Fisker- | So if you're speeding i should just put you in jail for murder |
10:17.48 | Kirkburn|afk | Do I have to keep repeating "MS used it's dominant position in the OS market to push it's way into the Media Player market" |
10:17.52 | Fisker- | I didn't know breaking the law allowed such |
10:17.54 | Kirkburn|afk | w. t. f. |
10:18.03 | Kirkburn|afk | It's a fine, Fisker- |
10:18.20 | Fisker- | Do i have to keep repeating that Windows Media Player wasn't the issue? |
10:18.38 | Kirkburn|afk | You can if you want, but the evidence seems to differ |
10:18.47 | Fisker- | no it doesn't |
10:18.59 | Kirkburn|afk | If it wasn't the issue, why does almost every source state such? |
10:19.25 | Fisker- | If it was the issue why does official EU document state otherwise? |
10:19.41 | Kirkburn|afk | Because that's one document, relating to one thing? |
10:19.55 | Fisker- | nope. |
10:19.57 | Kirkburn|afk | Where is this document, anyway, you've not linked it |
10:20.12 | Fisker- | Was in the wikipedia article you linked earlier |
10:20.31 | Fisker- | i rather read the sources than trust a page like wikipedia |
10:20.34 | Fisker- | http://ec.europa.eu/comm/competition/antitrust/cases/decisions/37792/en.pdf |
10:20.43 | Fisker- | page 32 and down |
10:21.23 | Kirkburn|afk | There's criticism of Wikipedia, and there's silly criticism of Wikipedia |
10:22.28 | Fisker- | what's that got to do with anything? |
10:23.12 | Kirkburn|afk | Okay, so while you're pointing at page 32, can I point at page 5? |
10:23.42 | Kirkburn|afk | "The second Statement of Objections concerned issues of interoperability as well as the incorporation of Windows Media Player in Windows" |
10:24.25 | Kirkburn|afk | Saying you'd rather read the sources, and then selectively quoting them, whilst criticising Wikipedia was not selectively quoting them ... is silly. |
10:24.37 | Kirkburn|afk | s/was/for/ |
10:24.54 | Fisker- | Kirkburn|afk i'm not selectively quoting them |
10:25.07 | Fisker- | But that's not proof Windows Media Player is a problem |
10:25.10 | Fisker- | That's opinion |
10:25.37 | Fisker- | The proof, which i read, is more about the DRM, the formats and the online capabillities of WM/WMP |
10:26.00 | Fisker- | I'm not arguing that they think they're doing it because WMP is an issue |
10:26.12 | Fisker- | if they didn't the outcome obviously wouldn't have been the same |
10:26.22 | Fisker- | I'm arguing that the issue is not WMP |
10:26.24 | Fisker- | cause it is not |
10:26.57 | *** join/#wowwiki elaa (n=ela@p54B4D744.dip.t-dialin.net) |
10:26.57 | Fisker- | The issue is that other developers have a hard time serving or decoding windows media formats |
10:27.35 | Fisker- | So for example since they can't really decode Windows Media they can't make an alternative to WMP |
10:27.59 | Fisker- | But if they remove Windows Media Player, they still can't make an alternative to Windows Media Player |
10:28.10 | Fisker- | So their decision fixes nothing |
10:28.47 | Fisker- | But for example making it so that Microsoft has to put out documentation on windows media makes alternatives possible |
10:28.49 | Kirkburn|afk | The commission said WMP is the problem ... so WMP is the problem. Seeing as we're talking about the commission. |
10:29.09 | Fisker- | Then we're not in the same discussion |
10:29.40 | Kirkburn|afk | No, we're not, as I've always been talking about the abuse of the monopoly |
10:29.55 | Kirkburn|afk | Not about the details of interoperability |
10:30.04 | Fisker- | It's the same thing |
10:30.15 | Fisker- | The abuse of the monoply is the lack of interoperability |
10:30.31 | Fisker- | Which is why EU is harassing Microsoft when they're fining them for Windows Media Player |
10:30.39 | Fisker- | and getting them to make seperate versions of windows |
10:30.50 | Fisker- | Which they according to you are still pissed at as it didn't fix their agenda |
10:31.00 | Fisker- | which according to you apparently makes it ok to continually harass them |
10:31.13 | Kirkburn|afk | "The second Statement of Objections concerned issues of interoperability as well as the incorporation of Windows Media Player in Windows" <-- so the last part of that doesn't exist? |
10:31.42 | Fisker- | No |
10:31.45 | Fisker- | err yes |
10:31.52 | Fisker- | But it still doesn't make it right |
10:32.13 | Fisker- | "The second Statement of Objections concerned issues of 1+1 = 3" |
10:32.15 | Fisker- | doesn't mean 1+1 = 3 |
10:32.26 | Fisker- | that's what you can boil it down to |
10:32.29 | Kirkburn|afk | You're worried about how their harassing MS? It's a company, not a person |
10:32.46 | Fisker- | And it makes it ok? |
10:33.06 | Fisker- | My point was the prejudice and how similar tactics are used by other "good" companies |
10:33.11 | Fisker- | i seem to have gotten that point across well |
10:33.23 | Kirkburn|afk | No, you haven't |
10:33.26 | Fisker- | Yes i have |
10:33.51 | Kirkburn|afk | Um, isn't that for me and Adys to decide? |
10:34.05 | Fisker- | You've just said i shouldn't be worried about Microsoft being harassed since it's a company and not a person |
10:34.26 | Fisker- | a company > a person |
10:34.36 | Kirkburn|afk | No, I said that the fact they're being harassed is not a reason to be worried for them |
10:34.52 | Kirkburn|afk | It's a subtle, but important different |
10:34.57 | Kirkburn|afk | *difference |
10:35.02 | Fisker- | no it's not |
10:35.04 | Adys | you havent gotten any point across fisker |
10:35.12 | Adys | you dont make any sense since you started weeks ago |
10:35.24 | Adys | and it is indeed up to kirk and me to decide |
10:35.29 | Kirkburn|afk | I defend MS from a lot, but not from this |
10:36.07 | Fisker- | I don't defend based on company, or status within a community |
10:36.12 | Fisker- | like people in here seems to do |
10:36.12 | Adys | right |
10:36.35 | Kirkburn|afk | You are saying interoperability is the only issue, when the quoted statement of objections above says otherwise |
10:36.37 | Adys | you think Im gonna swallow that :P |
10:37.06 | Fisker- | I am saying you murdered people |
10:37.13 | Fisker- | i don't care if i don't have any evidence |
10:37.16 | Fisker- | but you did murder people |
10:37.23 | Kirkburn|afk | oookay |
10:37.26 | Fisker- | yup |
10:37.34 | Fisker- | I found that you didn't murder people in my investigations |
10:37.35 | Adys | cmon kirk, hes right for once |
10:37.38 | Fisker- | but you did murder people |
10:37.39 | Adys | he just doesnt see the wrong in that |
10:37.43 | Kirkburn|afk | You really gotta work on that whole exaggeration to prove a point thing |
10:37.48 | Fisker- | no |
10:38.06 | Fisker- | Accusing someone of something and proving something entirely different doesn't make the accusation right |
10:38.15 | Fisker- | The commision might be concerned by Windows Media Player |
10:38.22 | Fisker- | but their facts revolved around Windows Media |
10:38.29 | Kirkburn|afk | So you are saying that MS did not use its dominant position in the OS market to push it's way into the Media Player market? |
10:38.39 | Fisker- | They can't prove Windows Media Player is a problem when the facts show Windows Media as the problem. |
10:38.43 | Fisker- | No i'm not |
10:38.45 | Adys | sigh :) |
10:39.05 | Fisker- | I'm saying that Microsoft didn't use Windows Media Player to gain a dominant position in the media player market |
10:39.21 | Fisker- | Since you can't |
10:39.46 | Kirkburn|afk | That's a vague rewording of the sentence |
10:39.58 | Kirkburn|afk | Essentially a "yes" |
10:40.27 | Fisker- | I'm not saying Microsoft didn't abuse their dominant position |
10:40.38 | Fisker- | I'm saying Windows Media Player wasn't the tool |
10:40.45 | Fisker- | And evidence suggests the same |
10:40.45 | foxlit | double negatives make baby foxes cry :( |
10:40.56 | Fisker- | As well as the fact you can't really do that |
10:41.01 | Kirkburn|afk | WMP wasn't the tool? The tool for what? |
10:41.41 | Kirkburn|afk | This sentence: "So you are saying that MS did not use its dominant position in the OS market to push it's way into the Media Player market?" ... uses the words "player". |
10:41.43 | Fisker- | achieving a dominant position in the media player market |
10:42.06 | Fisker- | Gonna knock it down a notch |
10:42.16 | Kirkburn|afk | Wait, so you're saying they got WMP into dominance without actually using WMP? |
10:42.24 | Kirkburn|afk | That's quite the achievement |
10:42.32 | Fisker- | no it's not |
10:42.43 | Fisker- | You can't use google videos to achive a dominant position in the web videos market |
10:42.58 | Fisker- | Cause if you're using google videos you've gained the position fair and square |
10:43.10 | Fisker- | you can however use your search engine to gain a dominant position in the market |
10:43.26 | Fisker- | For example when i search on something i'll get links to youtube and google videos if there are similar videos there |
10:44.05 | Fisker- | But if i'm unaware of google videos and youtube then they obviously can't use google video or youtube to refer to themself |
10:44.14 | Fisker- | But they can use the search engine (which i am aware of) to do so |
10:45.27 | Kirkburn|afk | Google nor Youtube nor GV are monopolies though |
10:45.29 | Adys | youtube was dominant before google acquired it |
10:45.37 | Fisker- | Not the point |
10:45.39 | Adys | and its not a monopoly indeed |
10:45.44 | Kirkburn|afk | Dominant, but not monopolies |
10:45.51 | Fisker- | Same shit for Microsoft |
10:45.56 | Fisker- | But still not the point |
10:45.57 | Kirkburn|afk | Hardly |
10:46.03 | Adys | right ok |
10:46.07 | Fisker- | Microsoft is not a monopoly, and it will never be |
10:46.11 | Fisker- | and it has never been |
10:46.13 | Adys | right ok |
10:46.15 | Fisker- | it has had a dominant position |
10:46.21 | Fisker- | But get to the point instead |
10:46.41 | Kirkburn|afk | Did you really read the earlier definition of monopoly? |
10:46.43 | Adys | fisker explain me why windows is not a monopoly |
10:46.50 | Adys | windows specifically |
10:47.03 | Fisker- | Kirkburn|afk don't even bother, i know even the european commision doesn't define it as a monopoly |
10:47.13 | Fisker- | at best i've seen "Duopoly" |
10:47.20 | Adys | ITS NOT THE EU COMMISSION DEFINITION ARGH |
10:47.26 | Fisker- | A real monopoly is 100% market share |
10:47.31 | Adys | a monopoly DOES NOT EQUAL 100% |
10:47.34 | Fisker- | yes it does |
10:47.36 | Adys | stop trying to think that |
10:47.38 | Adys | it does not |
10:47.42 | Fisker- | yes it does |
10:47.45 | Adys | it does not and it does not, jusst get this in your head |
10:47.49 | Fisker- | it's original definition has been that |
10:48.03 | Fisker- | and your new definition you came up 5 years ago is invalid |
10:48.10 | Kirkburn|afk | Why did I have this feeling it'd all come down to semantics |
10:48.13 | Adys | its not my new definition |
10:48.13 | Fisker- | And it STILL isn't the point |
10:48.20 | Fisker- | Kirkburn|afk you're the one starting the semantics here |
10:48.24 | Kirkburn|afk | lol @ the idea it's a new definition |
10:48.25 | Fisker- | I'm merely responding to them |
10:48.26 | Adys | no one gives a shit about the old definition, we are not trying to make a dictionary here |
10:48.40 | Adys | its the point we are trying to give across that counts |
10:48.44 | Adys | not the definition |
10:48.53 | Adys | i dont give a damn about monopoly meaning 100% or not |
10:49.00 | Fisker- | Neither do i |
10:49.03 | Adys | i give a damn about whether microsoft controls the market |
10:49.04 | Adys | and they do |
10:49.12 | Fisker- | No |
10:49.17 | Fisker- | That would be abuse |
10:49.18 | Adys | and i call that a monopoly because a monopoly is a term used to say ms controls the market |
10:49.27 | Adys | now stop trying to reword shit |
10:49.36 | Adys | youve been on it since two hours and twenty minutes) |
10:49.37 | Fisker- | And if Microsoft have a monopoly Google and a lot of other companies have as well |
10:49.38 | Adys | grats |
10:49.43 | Fisker- | No |
10:49.48 | Fisker- | My original point remains |
10:49.49 | Adys | yes you have |
10:49.55 | Adys | it remains in your head |
10:49.58 | Adys | what are you trying to do |
10:50.01 | Adys | convince us? |
10:50.01 | Fisker- | [11:44:13] <+Fisker-> But if i'm unaware of google videos and youtube then they obviously can't use google video or youtube to refer to themself |
10:50.02 | Fisker- | [11:44:22] <+Fisker-> But they can use the search engine (which i am aware of) to do so |
10:50.06 | Fisker- | [11:45:35] <@Kirkburn|afk> Google nor Youtube nor GV are monopolies though |
10:50.06 | Fisker- | [11:45:38] <@Adys> youtube was dominant before google acquired it |
10:50.12 | Fisker- | and you turn it into a semantics shitfest |
10:50.17 | Adys | i do? |
10:50.19 | Adys | you do, dude |
10:50.22 | Fisker- | no |
10:50.27 | Adys | yes you fucking do |
10:50.29 | Fisker- | No |
10:50.33 | Fisker- | Google is an example |
10:50.38 | Adys | [11:47:53] <+Fisker-> it's original definition has been that |
10:50.38 | Adys | [11:48:08] <+Fisker-> and your new definition you came up 5 years ago is invalid |
10:50.45 | Adys | thats me turning it into semantics, totally |
10:50.46 | Fisker- | Yes |
10:50.54 | Fisker- | That is a response to you |
10:50.58 | Kirkburn|afk | The point when Google and Youtube have no real competitors, then this will become worthwhile |
10:50.59 | Fisker- | After YOU have turned it into semantics |
10:51.13 | Fisker- | "no real competitors" |
10:51.17 | Adys | you know what semantics are as much as you know what monopolies are |
10:51.34 | Adys | you`re way down in your own world fisker |
10:51.34 | Fisker- | Linux is a pretty real competitor to Windows |
10:51.38 | Kirkburn|afk | Yeah, like Live Search, Yahoo, Ask.com, etc |
10:51.39 | Adys | no its not |
10:51.43 | Fisker- | Yes it is |
10:51.46 | Adys | linux is a threat to windows, but not a competitor |
10:51.51 | Adys | it has under 0.8% share |
10:52.01 | Fisker- | perhaps on the desktop market |
10:52.05 | Fisker- | But it's still not the point |
10:52.16 | Adys | yes we're talking desktop |
10:52.27 | Kirkburn|afk | This whole thing has always been about the desktop market |
10:52.28 | Adys | because anyone using windows server is an idiot or doesnt need efficiency |
10:52.30 | Fisker- | No we're not |
10:52.35 | Adys | yes it has fisker |
10:52.38 | Adys | in your head it hasnt |
10:52.52 | Adys | in EVERYONE ELSE's heads it has |
10:53.02 | Fisker- | The current discussion is whether or not i can use a product to gain a monopoly on that same product |
10:53.07 | Fisker- | Yeah i'm sorry if you can't read |
10:53.24 | Kirkburn|afk | What? No? |
10:53.27 | Adys | no, im sorry if you cant convince us while talking about something different |
10:53.37 | Adys | actually, Im sorry you wasted two hours doing only that |
10:53.43 | Fisker- | [11:44:13] <+Fisker-> But if i'm unaware of google videos and youtube then they obviously can't use google video or youtube to refer to themself |
10:53.43 | Fisker- | [11:44:22] <+Fisker-> But they can use the search engine (which i am aware of) to do so |
10:53.50 | Kirkburn|afk | "MS used it's dominant position in the OS market to push it's way into the Media Player market" <-- that was the discussion |
10:53.51 | Adys | I dont give a damn. |
10:53.57 | Fisker- | Yes |
10:54.03 | Fisker- | No you don't give a damn Adys |
10:54.07 | Fisker- | just validating my point |
10:54.17 | Fisker- | cause for you it was just "OMG GOOGLE HE MIGHT BE BADMOUTHING ATTAAAAAAAAAAAAACK" |
10:54.26 | Kirkburn|afk | And for me? |
10:54.29 | Adys | i defend my company, im in my own right? |
10:54.34 | Kirkburn|afk | Someone who normally defends MS? |
10:54.42 | Fisker- | Adys you're defending your company against nothing |
10:54.47 | Fisker- | Cause i'm not attacking it |
10:54.49 | Adys | against total nonsense |
10:54.59 | Adys | and im not defending google here |
10:55.02 | Kirkburn|afk | How do I fit into this turf defence thing? |
10:55.07 | Adys | Im defending kirkburn whos trying to point out your nonsense |
10:55.11 | Fisker- | Nope |
10:55.18 | Adys | yes believe me i am |
10:55.25 | Fisker- | It isn't nonsense |
10:55.26 | Adys | stop trying to make the rules you dont |
10:55.53 | Adys | dude, if a prophet comes up 800 years ago and tells stuff that doesnt make sense to anyone but him, its nonsense |
10:55.56 | Fisker- | You can try to keep back on the original topic or stop trying to make the socalled rules yourself |
10:55.58 | Adys | even if it makes sense to him. |
10:56.17 | Kirkburn|afk | Not sure what the topic was now ... /me goes and looks |
10:56.18 | Fisker- | That it doesn't make sense to you doesn't make it nonsense either |
10:56.33 | Adys | it doesnt make sense to anyone here but you |
10:56.36 | Adys | thats the whole point |
10:56.47 | Adys | who the hell is this beerbot? |
10:56.50 | Fisker- | You can't speak for all of here |
10:56.54 | Fisker- | so don't |
10:57.02 | Adys | you wanna bet? |
10:57.09 | Adys | how many are in this discussion? three of us |
10:57.16 | Adys | and so far, to kirk its nonsense, feel free to correct me kirk |
10:57.25 | Fisker- | [11:56:42] <@Adys> it doesnt make sense to anyone here but you |
10:57.27 | Kirkburn|afk | heh |
10:57.28 | Fisker- | That means #wowwiki |
10:57.34 | Adys | No, that means kirk, you, and me |
10:57.44 | Fisker- | No it doesn't |
10:57.48 | Adys | and anyone who joins the discussion |
10:57.53 | Adys | yes it does, dont tell me what it doesnt mean |
10:58.02 | Fisker- | [11:56:26] <+Fisker-> That it doesn't make sense to you doesn't make it nonsense either |
10:58.09 | Fisker- | So who is here except us 3? |
10:58.17 | Fisker- | Redundant comment then |
10:58.20 | Adys | Ask then? |
10:58.31 | Adys | Who here is following this discussion and wants to prove someone's point? |
10:58.34 | Kirkburn|afk | Yeah, as if anyone wants to join in this :P |
10:58.37 | Adys | Question to the chan. |
10:58.44 | Adys | yeah i think kirk sums it up pretty well |
10:58.46 | Fisker- | I'm saying just because it doesn't make sense to any of you doesn't mean it's nonsense |
10:58.58 | *** join/#wowwiki Liothen (n=liothen@72.24.191.164) |
10:58.59 | Adys | thats where you're wrong fisker |
10:59.03 | Fisker- | you say it doesn't make sense to anyone here |
10:59.11 | Adys | if you try to make a point accross |
10:59.21 | Adys | you try and not make it nonsense to your listeners |
10:59.28 | Adys | and at that, you fail |
10:59.34 | Fisker- | And since i've already excluded us 3 from that discussion your commentary is either 1. directed at the channel as a whole or 2. irrelevant |
10:59.46 | Kirkburn|afk | Anyhoo, notwithstanding everything that went afterwards, can we at least agree MS did (maybe still does) bad stuff related to monopolistic practises? |
10:59.48 | Adys | you keep on, i got work to do |
10:59.51 | Fisker- | Is your comment irrelevant or directed at #wowwiki? |
11:00.02 | Fisker- | Kirkburn|afk that isn't the discussion |
11:00.10 | Fisker- | It's irrelevant to agree on |
11:00.10 | Adys | IT IS THE DISCUSSION |
11:00.11 | Adys | afk |
11:00.13 | Fisker- | IT IS NOT |
11:01.13 | Kirkburn|afk | I don't think anyone of us really know |
11:01.23 | Fisker- | i do |
11:01.54 | Fisker- | You can't use windows media player to gain a dominant position on the media player market |
11:02.06 | Fisker- | If i'm using windows media player i used it because i wanted to use it |
11:02.14 | Fisker- | And then the position is valid for them to have |
11:02.38 | Kirkburn|afk | And I still cannot agree with that |
11:03.06 | Fisker- | Again you can't use google videos or youtube if you don't know they exist |
11:03.29 | Kirkburn|afk | Quite apart from the way it was originally worded, which was "MS used it's dominant position in the OS market to push it's way into the Media Player market" |
11:03.51 | Fisker- | Perhaps, but again that is why the quote is invalid |
11:04.11 | Fisker- | or atleast the ruling is |
11:04.46 | Fisker- | They didn't remove Windows Media Player cause it was used to gain a dominant position on the media player market |
11:04.53 | Kirkburn|afk | That you can actually argue against that sentence is why we'll never get anywhere |
11:04.53 | Fisker- | They removed it for some other reason we don't know |
11:05.02 | Fisker- | You can |
11:05.07 | Fisker- | The sentence is speculative and opinionated |
11:05.19 | Fisker- | The following documents are evidence and conclusions |
11:05.28 | Fisker- | and evidence doesn't follow the ruling |
11:05.41 | Fisker- | err the ruling doesn't follow the evidence |
11:05.49 | Kirkburn|afk | Well, tbh, I'll take the EU commission's ruling over yours any day |
11:06.08 | Fisker- | Doesn't make it any more right |
11:06.39 | Kirkburn|afk | Only when you're defining what's right |
11:06.51 | Fisker- | It wasn't right |
11:07.12 | Fisker- | Ask yourself, why did they want Windows Media Player removed? |
11:07.38 | Kirkburn|afk | Because it was preventing competition in the media player market |
11:07.45 | Fisker- | ok |
11:07.55 | Fisker- | But how was it doing that? |
11:09.13 | Fisker- | As i said before, if you don't know google videos exist, i can't use it |
11:09.21 | Kirkburn|afk | (sec, typing response) |
11:09.28 | Fisker- | But if i know google exists, and google shows me google videos then i can use it |
11:09.51 | Kirkburn|afk | Because, by integrating it with Windows (and including all sorts of fancy extras), they made it difficult for anyone to sell a media player for Windows |
11:10.05 | Kirkburn|afk | And importantly, there was already a media player market |
11:10.11 | Fisker- | winnar |
11:10.13 | Fisker- | it's you. |
11:10.34 | Fisker- | But how does removing windows media player solve that? |
11:10.39 | Kirkburn|afk | I've been saying that all along ... |
11:11.00 | Kirkburn|afk | Uh, by not having WMP as the default? |
11:11.12 | Fisker- | That has nothing to do with removing WMP |
11:11.15 | Kirkburn|afk | Thus making it possible for people to use something in it's place? |
11:11.25 | Fisker- | So the "Set programs as default's part" and Windows Media is kept out of this |
11:11.41 | Fisker- | They remove WMP, and make it so you still can't change default media players(even though none exists) |
11:11.42 | Kirkburn|afk | Windows N would also allow sellers to include a different media player in what they sold to the consumer |
11:11.52 | foxlit | http://code.google.com/soc/2008/google/about.html |
11:11.53 | foxlit | slackers |
11:13.09 | Kirkburn|afk | Yes, I do agree removing WMP wasn't a perfect choice, but there wasn't much else |
11:13.14 | Fisker- | Yes there was |
11:13.17 | Fisker- | That's exactly it |
11:13.24 | Fisker- | They had 2 other changes |
11:13.44 | Fisker- | 1 was to make it possible(or easier) for other developers to be a default viewer |
11:14.15 | Fisker- | The second was to make the windows media format more open/documented so external players could be used for it |
11:14.41 | Fisker- | The WMP solution fixes nothing, but makes it more confusing, and in the end probably has no effect as noone will ever buy the N version |
11:14.49 | Fisker- | And that is what the evidence found |
11:15.17 | Fisker- | The Windows Media format made it difficult for other developers to make alternatives |
11:15.24 | Fisker- | as did the "Default programs"-thingy |
11:15.34 | Fisker- | But the ruling was "Remove WMP" |
11:15.45 | Kirkburn|afk | Dude, I'm not talking about any of that. Vent all you want. |
11:15.52 | Fisker- | yes you are |
11:16.00 | Fisker- | You should be able to get it by now |
11:16.09 | Kirkburn|afk | I'm not, I'm only talking about whether or not MS did actually abuse the monopoly |
11:16.24 | Kirkburn|afk | Something you're just not grasping |
11:16.28 | Fisker- | You cannot use the product itself to gain a dominant position within the market the product is representing |
11:16.31 | Kirkburn|afk | I don't care about what solutions there may or may not have been |
11:16.44 | Fisker- | You're not grasping that it was _NEVER_ the discussion |
11:16.51 | Fisker- | The WMP ruling was unfair |
11:16.55 | Fisker- | that was the discussion |
11:17.03 | Fisker- | You've backed out now you can see that i am right |
11:17.09 | Kirkburn|afk | Oh freaking hell man, you're not the one ruling over what gets discussed, neither of us are |
11:17.32 | Kirkburn|afk | No, you're venting over stuff I'm not going to disagree with, because I don't disagree with it ... I never did |
11:17.40 | Fisker- | You did |
11:17.51 | Fisker- | You just didn't realize that you were trapped |
11:18.05 | Adys | fisker |
11:18.05 | Kirkburn|afk | Weeeee-oooooo, Twlight Zone |
11:18.06 | Adys | your head |
11:18.09 | Adys | get it out of the sand |
11:18.19 | Fisker- | The ruling with removing WMP is incompatible with the quote "MS used it's dominant position in the OS market to push it's way into the Media Player market" |
11:18.42 | Adys | and i dont see you as being right |
11:18.46 | Adys | kirk doesnt see you as being right |
11:18.54 | Fisker- | Doesn't make it wrong |
11:18.55 | Adys | if you think we see you as being right, thats fine |
11:19.03 | Fisker- | and Kirkburn|afk just said he agreed |
11:19.04 | Adys | but what the fuck are you doing here then? |
11:19.08 | Fisker- | or atleast said he didn't disagree |
11:19.25 | Fisker- | So actually you are wrong on that part |
11:19.32 | Fisker- | Now you're the only one posting "nonsense" |
11:19.32 | Kirkburn|afk | I don't disagree with the plain obviousness that Windows N failed |
11:19.42 | Adys | Fisker- |
11:19.46 | Fisker- | That wasn't the discussion either Kirkburn|afk |
11:19.47 | Adys | your head, get it out of the sand. |
11:20.18 | Adys | none of us sees you as being right |
11:20.18 | Fisker- | Adys |
11:20.20 | Adys | since the start |
11:20.23 | Fisker- | Your head, get out of google's ass |
11:20.29 | Fisker- | +it |
11:20.30 | Adys | dude when did i mention google |
11:20.41 | Fisker- | earlier |
11:21.01 | Kirkburn|afk | Fisker-, even if you took the unlikely prospect of Adys' head being stuck there ... exactly whose side am I on? |
11:21.14 | Fisker- | Why should i care? |
11:21.16 | Kirkburn|afk | Can you pigeonhole me too? |
11:21.28 | Fisker- | No cause unlike Adys you don't pigeonhole me |
11:21.57 | Adys | fisker, you should care because if you keep having arrogant, stupid, non backed up, insulting, pointless and hostile comportment Im getting you out of this chan |
11:22.13 | Adys | this is not a way to get out of the oh so right point you're making |
11:22.15 | Fisker- | 1. It's not arrogant |
11:22.18 | Fisker- | 2. It's not stupid |
11:22.18 | Adys | but this has been going on for three hours |
11:22.21 | Fisker- | 3. It's backed up |
11:22.28 | Fisker- | 4. You're the one insulting me, i ALWAYS respond in kind |
11:22.34 | Adys | [12:20:28] <+Fisker-> Your head, get out of google's ass |
11:22.35 | Fisker- | 5. pointless indeed |
11:22.45 | Fisker- | Yes |
11:22.45 | Kirkburn|afk | (I actually think this has been quite interesting as discussions go) |
11:22.53 | Adys | its been interesting at first |
11:22.58 | Adys | gets boring after a couple of hours |
11:23.03 | Kirkburn|afk | True |
11:23.13 | Fisker- | [11:45:38] <@Adys> youtube was dominant before google acquired it |
11:23.22 | Adys | yeah that totally makes me a fanboy |
11:23.35 | Adys | and my head is so stuck up their ass i know and relate facts |
11:23.37 | Adys | *shrugs* |
11:23.44 | Fisker- | http://ec.europa.eu/comm/competition/antitrust/cases/decisions/37792/en.pdf |
11:23.47 | Fisker- | = fact |
11:23.56 | Fisker- | And you were defending something that wasn't being attacked |
11:23.59 | Fisker- | then you = fanboy |
11:24.13 | Kirkburn|afk | Even when I quote that you tell me it's not part of the discussion :/ |
11:24.16 | Adys | Im defending my company when its attacked yes, i was not defending anything |
11:24.28 | Fisker- | no Kirkburn|afk that IS infact part of the discussion |
11:24.30 | Adys | i was stating youtube was dominant before google acquired it |
11:24.45 | Adys | how the fuck is that defending soul and body a company i got my head stuck in |
11:24.57 | Fisker- | But you ignore the MASSIVE AMOUNTS of FINDINGS as opposed to 1 LINE of speculative introduction |
11:25.34 | Kirkburn|afk | No, I just don't bother quote mining |
11:25.59 | Kirkburn|afk | I'd rather use the title of a piece, rather than one sentence of it |
11:26.22 | Fisker- | I've used more "title of the piece" than you've done |
11:27.13 | Kirkburn|afk | You want me to read all 300 pages ot make sure the bit you quoted from oage 32 encompassed the entire issue? |
11:27.31 | Fisker- | i didn't quote anything from page 32 |
11:27.43 | Adys | lol |
11:28.13 | Kirkburn|afk | Oh right, so page 32-300? |
11:28.55 | Fisker- | nah |
11:29.04 | Fisker- | only a couple of pages |
11:29.49 | Kirkburn|afk | See I just don't see how you can say MS didn't use their dominant OS position to stifle competition in the media player market |
11:30.00 | Fisker- | They did |
11:30.33 | Fisker- | But they didn't use Windows Media Player to do it |
11:31.58 | Kirkburn|afk | I would say the important difference between Google/Youtube and Windows/WMP is that you don't have to go to Google, nor pay anything for that ability ... but with Windows, you can't choose to not use Windows (without significant time/cost/trouble). |
11:32.43 | Kirkburn|afk | Don't like Google's search? Go somewhere else, one simple click |
11:33.21 | Kirkburn|afk | Don't like Window's use of WMP? Well, you could go searching for alternative media players, and hope they cover everything WMP did, or buy a Mac, or take a foray into the world of Linux. |
11:33.34 | Kirkburn|afk | None are that inviting. |
11:33.49 | Fisker- | lol |
11:34.00 | Kirkburn|afk | (from an impartial PoV, their actual benefits notwithstanding) |
11:34.00 | Fisker- | I could've understand if you've used it against Windows vs. Linux |
11:34.06 | Fisker- | but using that against windows media player is just stupid |
11:34.19 | Fisker- | There are plenty of alternatives available, and they are easily available |
11:34.29 | Kirkburn|afk | From a time/cost/trouble perspective |
11:34.41 | Fisker- | And again being hard to find id why they are built into Windows to begin with |
11:35.08 | Fisker- | http://www.google.dk/search?hl=da&q=online+video+web&meta= <-that's how easy it is to find youtube alternatives |
11:35.14 | Kirkburn|afk | I'd put it the other way around |
11:35.16 | Fisker- | poor us |
11:35.42 | Kirkburn|afk | But you just said they were hard ot find |
11:35.49 | Kirkburn|afk | sorry, scratch that |
11:36.15 | Adys | http://www.google.fr/search?q=online+video&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=com.ubuntu:en-US:unofficial&client=firefox-a |
11:36.21 | Adys | Im sorry I dont get the same results as you do |
11:36.27 | Adys | I dont even see youtube on here. |
11:36.49 | Adys | i do see imteaz, veoh, metacafe, aol video, sharkle, tvguide... |
11:36.53 | Kirkburn|afk | Alterntive media players are hard to find because WMP has been pushed to dominance |
11:37.21 | Adys | http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,143517/article.html |
11:37.22 | Adys | tee hee |
11:37.27 | Adys | only a third? not even half? |
11:37.29 | Fisker- | Adys then you're not seeing the same results as us |
11:38.05 | Adys | us? |
11:38.15 | Adys | sorry, you're blind |
11:38.27 | Fisker- | there were only imteaz and veoh on that search result |
11:38.27 | Kirkburn|afk | I'd call "video" a better search string btw, why bother using the terms web or online, when you're already online |
11:39.03 | Adys | okay lets try video |
11:39.05 | Kirkburn|afk | Search "video" and you'll do much better |
11:39.06 | Adys | http://www.google.fr/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=com.ubuntu%3Aen-US%3Aunofficial&hs=ATF&q=video&btnG=Search |
11:39.15 | Adys | yahoo video comes second |
11:39.16 | Fisker- | video is good |
11:39.45 | Adys | how discriminating it doesnt come first |
11:39.50 | Adys | particularly knowing its less used than gvid (virtually the same as yt now) |
11:39.57 | Kirkburn|afk | What actual competition to WMP is there now? |
11:40.00 | Adys | i mean, they should help yahoo vid get more share |
11:40.04 | laurly | are you guys still going on??? |
11:40.13 | Fisker- | VLC |
11:40.13 | Kirkburn|afk | laurly, surely not :P |
11:40.14 | Fisker- | MPC |
11:40.20 | Kirkburn|afk | MPC is video |
11:40.26 | Kirkburn|afk | VLC, does that do music? |
11:40.27 | Fisker- | does audio as well |
11:40.28 | laurly | i have been down shoping with a teenager in the time you guys have sit talking... |
11:40.32 | Fisker- | just looks ugly |
11:40.33 | Adys | yeah vlc does music |
11:40.39 | Adys | only vlc and gom are the real alternative |
11:40.53 | Kirkburn|afk | laurly, hehehe |
11:40.58 | Adys | http://www.mauriziopetrone.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/quality-rater-guidelines-2007.pdf |
11:41.00 | Adys | here is for you |
11:41.02 | foxlit | iTunes, you insensitive clods. |
11:41.02 | Kirkburn|afk | laurly, it's actualyl been quite interesting |
11:41.05 | Adys | google search quality guidelines |
11:41.09 | Fisker- | but it's still besides the point |
11:41.14 | Kirkburn|afk | foxlit, hmm, how good is that for video? |
11:41.31 | Adys | itunes sucks |
11:41.38 | Adys | on windows it sucks in general |
11:41.43 | Adys | just like safari and quicktime |
11:41.49 | foxlit | It _plays_ video. |
11:41.51 | foxlit | Incredible, I know |
11:42.07 | Kirkburn|afk | Heh, but is it a natural video player? |
11:42.15 | Kirkburn|afk | (I don't really know, not being an iTunes user) |
11:42.18 | Adys | for that matter, the gecko 0.1 engine also renders webpages |
11:42.32 | Adys | nah itunes has a hard time playing vids |
11:42.39 | Adys | apple promotes quicktime for vids |
11:42.51 | Adys | and itunes has an embedded qt player afaik to play vids so |
11:43.07 | Kirkburn|afk | My point being that WMP barely has any direct competitors, being the catch-all program that it is, present on all PCs |
11:43.35 | Fisker- | Not having any competition isn't Microsoft's fault |
11:43.38 | Kirkburn|afk | However, there was once a market for such all-singing all-dancing players |
11:43.48 | Kirkburn|afk | Until MS pushed WMP on everyone |
11:43.49 | Fisker- | And i'd still say pretty much noone uses WMP |
11:43.56 | laurly | wonders if shes loging this... |
11:44.01 | Kirkburn|afk | heh |
11:44.01 | Fisker- | Atleast not unless they have a codec pack |
11:44.07 | Kirkburn|afk | Fisker-, techie people, mebbe |
11:44.14 | Kirkburn|afk | Not Mr. Joe Public |
11:44.32 | Fisker- | and since the codec packs usually has a player then they have taken a choice |
11:44.45 | Fisker- | and if that choice was to keep using WMP then that isn't Microsoft's problem |
11:45.29 | Kirkburn|afk | That would be the same reasoning we all got stuck with IE |
11:45.40 | foxlit | So, er, clearly |
11:45.50 | Fisker- | ? |
11:45.52 | Fisker- | how? |
11:46.01 | foxlit | FireFox is better than IE -> Firefox gets more popular |
11:46.22 | Fisker- | IE > Firefox :P |
11:46.24 | Kirkburn|afk | Sorry, actually, it wasn't entirely relevant to your point, but then again, neither was your point |
11:46.36 | Kirkburn|afk | Codec packs, not used by Joe Public |
11:46.41 | Fisker- | They are |
11:46.48 | Fisker- | if you want to play DVD's |
11:46.55 | Fisker- | WMP doesn't come with DVD playback |
11:47.13 | Kirkburn|afk | I'm .... not sure about that |
11:47.18 | Fisker- | it doesn't |
11:47.28 | foxlit | Depends |
11:47.40 | Fisker- | so either you're using one of the many commercial dvd products (usually bundled with your computer), and thus not using WMP, or you're using a free codec(who would pay? :D) which is in a codec pack which usually has a player attached |
11:47.41 | foxlit | OEM can bundle the relevant codecs (typically with their own half-baked player) |
11:48.08 | Fisker- | Well from Microsoft atleast it's not bundled with a codec |
11:48.14 | Fisker- | only vista ultimate has that i believe |
11:48.28 | Kirkburn|afk | Hmm, Vista Home Premium has DVD playback |
11:48.41 | Kirkburn|afk | Not Basic though |
11:49.08 | Fisker- | or business |
11:49.21 | Fisker- | so home premium and ultimate then |
11:49.23 | Kirkburn|afk | Relevancy, please? |
11:49.30 | Kirkburn|afk | Premium is the main seller |
11:49.37 | Fisker- | I'm not saying it wasn't |
11:49.52 | Fisker- | But until Vista you don't have any dvd playback |
11:49.58 | Kirkburn|afk | For XP, did any of those come with it? |
11:50.07 | Fisker- | It requires a codec |
11:50.11 | Fisker- | http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/player/plugins.aspx#DVDDecoder |
11:50.26 | Kirkburn|afk | In any case, WMP directs you to get DVD plugins |
11:50.31 | Fisker- | Yeah |
11:50.34 | Fisker- | that's the link above |
11:51.21 | Kirkburn|afk | So, actually the third option of using WMP to play DVDs is actually quite feasible |
11:51.35 | Fisker- | You can play dvd's with it |
11:51.59 | Fisker- | But the you get a playback program whatever way you go |
11:52.35 | Kirkburn|afk | In any case, I still take issue with your comment "And i'd still say pretty much noone uses WMP" |
11:53.17 | Kirkburn|afk | If that was true, why is there so little direct competition? |
11:53.29 | Fisker- | Who says there is? |
11:53.36 | Fisker- | Most of the competition works on bundles |
11:53.58 | Fisker- | I must say atleast i haven't seen a personal computer without: VLC, MPC or another commercial dvd playback program |
11:54.31 | Kirkburn|afk | Mine. |
11:54.57 | Fisker- | Then you have chosen WMP cause you know the alternatives and you don't want to use them |
11:55.31 | Kirkburn|afk | Actually, because WMP is good |
11:55.56 | Kirkburn|afk | And I don't like installing lots of things |
11:57.29 | Kirkburn|afk | Anyway, I feel like the discussion is winding down (finally), so I shall take my leave |
11:58.13 | Fisker- | I still think you've missed the point |
11:58.17 | Fisker- | :P |
11:59.05 | *** join/#wowwiki WyriHaximus4th (n=WyriHaxi@62.58.132.42) |
12:04.16 | *** join/#wowwiki harldephin (i=harl@dslb-088-076-059-181.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
12:06.56 | *** join/#wowwiki pcj (n=pcjjenks@pdpc/supporter/active/pcj) |
12:06.56 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+v pcj] by ChanServ |
12:12.16 | laurly | hmmm did they give up Fisker- |
12:21.02 | Fisker- | Looks like they had problems understanding :< |
12:34.52 | *** join/#wowwiki Gymble_10co (n=dok@AStrasbourg-251-1-71-59.w82-126.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
12:36.01 | *** join/#wowwiki Klimpen (n=klimpen@203-97-171-237.cable.telstraclear.net) |
12:37.13 | Klimpen | Just a heads up, I think 'Juliexp' is spamming advertisements on Realm pages. |
12:37.26 | Adys | link? |
12:37.58 | Klimpen | http://www.wowwiki.com/Special:Contributions/Juliexp |
12:38.26 | Adys | thanks |
12:38.40 | Klimpen | :) |
12:44.15 | Klimpen | Mmmmm... they appear to be doing more changes. |
12:44.27 | Adys | ? |
12:46.11 | Klimpen | That Juliexp. I just refreshed their Contributions page and like 10 new entries appeared. |
12:46.29 | Adys | no i blocked her |
12:46.38 | Klimpen | Ah. Coolcool |
12:49.04 | laurly | well thats orignal |
12:50.23 | laurly | do you have to revert them one at a time adys? |
12:50.35 | Adys | yeah but i can do it quickly |
12:50.41 | Adys | its just a link farm |
12:51.41 | laurly | still annoying |
12:51.46 | Adys | kinda ye |
13:04.47 | *** join/#wowwiki Lopen|Wooork (n=lopen@207.74.131.76) |
13:16.16 | *** join/#wowwiki Schnoobby (n=MirandaM@wrzb-590dc04b.pool.einsundeins.de) |
13:21.06 | *** join/#wowwiki Kaso (n=Kaso@resnet22.nat.lancs.ac.uk) |
13:21.06 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+v Kaso] by ChanServ |
13:36.38 | *** join/#wowwiki Kirkburn (n=Kirkburn@77-99-230-64.cable.ubr06.azte.blueyonder.co.uk) |
13:36.38 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+o Kirkburn] by ChanServ |
13:41.38 | *** join/#wowwiki Kirkburn (n=Kirkburn@77-99-230-64.cable.ubr06.azte.blueyonder.co.uk) |
13:41.38 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+o Kirkburn] by ChanServ |
13:55.57 | Kirkburn | btw, plan is database stuff 2moro |
13:58.51 | Kirkburn | So may be readonly for a while |
13:59.07 | pcj | noooooo |
13:59.27 | Kirkburn | (also, this is why Blizzard doesn't give specific timeframes) |
14:00.46 | foxlit | clearly incompetence :) |
14:17.45 | Kirkburn | http://www.flockofmullets.com/ |
14:18.49 | *** join/#wowwiki foxlit (n=foxlit@0x573e6bae.alb2nxx18.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk) |
14:18.49 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+o foxlit] by ChanServ |
14:32.42 | *** join/#wowwiki Sousui (n=Sousui@202.137.205.68.cfl.res.rr.com) |
14:38.23 | *** join/#wowwiki Nolook_ (n=chatzill@netblock-68-183-40-143.dslextreme.com) |
14:52.08 | *** join/#wowwiki Chompers (n=Chompers@cpc1-cove9-0-0-cust541.brhm.cable.ntl.com) |
14:56.34 | *** join/#wowwiki Kalroth (n=kalroth@port114.ds1-hj.adsl.cybercity.dk) |
14:56.34 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+v Kalroth] by ChanServ |
15:06.44 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+v pcj] by ChanServ |
15:19.01 | *** join/#wowwiki MentalPower (n=MPower@WoWUIDev/Norganna/Administrator/MentalPower) |
15:26.40 | *** join/#wowwiki arskeh (n=aki@a91-154-82-30.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
15:44.11 | Dotted | Kirkburn did i mention i finally found a working driver? |
15:49.21 | Fisker- | for what? |
15:50.46 | Dotted | my nvidia failforce 8800gt |
15:51.09 | *** join/#wowwiki Aloysius (n=Aloysius@d51A459BA.access.telenet.be) |
15:54.50 | Kaso | its hard to find a driver for nVidia? |
16:06.28 | Fisker- | not really |
16:06.33 | Fisker- | but Dotted sucks as usual |
16:06.55 | Dotted | Kaso yes |
16:07.24 | Fisker- | If Dotted were a company he would be enron |
16:07.54 | Dotted | o'rly |
16:39.49 | *** join/#wowwiki DuTempete (n=DuTempet@c-67-165-143-202.hsd1.il.comcast.net) |
16:39.49 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+v DuTempete] by ChanServ |
17:04.00 | *** join/#wowwiki Gryphen (n=gryphon@71.216.187.10) |
17:04.00 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+o Gryphen] by ChanServ |
17:11.12 | *** join/#wowwiki Fappah (n=Fapper@0x57388a8f.hjnqu1.broadband.tele.dk) |
17:23.21 | *** join/#wowwiki Kalroth (n=kalroth@port114.ds1-hj.adsl.cybercity.dk) |
17:23.21 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+v Kalroth] by ChanServ |
17:25.57 | Dotted | Fisker- Boomtown siger Codemasters er på steam =O=O=O=O |
17:28.53 | Fisker- | er de også |
17:28.59 | Fisker- | med ca. 1 spil |
17:30.03 | Dotted | hvilket? |
17:30.36 | Fisker- | http://steampowered.com/v/index.php?area=game&AppId=11420&cc=DK |
17:31.39 | *** join/#wowwiki Guardix (i=martin_j@87.59.121.179) |
17:31.42 | Dotted | de skulle tage sig sammen og smide operation flaspoint på steam istedet |
17:31.55 | Fisker- | tror du jeg er obvious troll? |
17:32.24 | Fisker- | (I.e. kig på artiklens comments igen) |
17:32.54 | Fisker- | sygt de ikke tør banne mig |
17:33.31 | Dotted | :D |
17:34.31 | Dotted | burde egentlig update min signatur |
17:58.07 | *** join/#wowwiki MentalPower (n=MPower@WoWUIDev/Norganna/Administrator/MentalPower) |
17:59.07 | *** join/#wowwiki pcj (i=pcj@ip24-253-231-86.ok.ok.cox.net) |
17:59.10 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+v pcj] by ChanServ |
18:02.25 | *** join/#wowwiki WyriHaximus (n=webmaste@i131220.upc-i.chello.nl) |
18:06.01 | *** join/#wowwiki Norsken (n=xkxaxn@84-217-90-41.tn.glocalnet.net) |
18:19.16 | *** join/#wowwiki Gourra (n=g0urra@73-236.powerdsl.t3.se) |
18:36.41 | *** join/#wowwiki Kazie (n=k@port207.ds1-vg.adsl.cybercity.dk) |
18:43.56 | *** join/#wowwiki Keolah (n=zenkeola@71.237.221.95) |
18:47.14 | *** join/#wowwiki pcj_2 (n=pcjjenks@pdpc/supporter/active/pcj) |
18:47.14 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+v pcj_2] by ChanServ |
18:49.29 | *** join/#wowwiki LiquidHelium (n=asdf@nc-67-77-6-113.dyn.embarqhsd.net) |
19:05.09 | Fisker- | btw Dotted |
19:05.13 | Fisker- | ham der med klagen er totalt nice |
19:05.21 | Dotted | wot? |
19:06.59 | Fisker- | http://www.boomtown.net/da_dk/forum/viewtopic.php?id=65532 |
19:18.51 | laurly | grumbles about havig to clear ssc |
19:23.38 | pcj | grumbles about servers being down |
19:25.31 | *** join/#wowwiki Gryphen (n=gryphon@71.216.187.10) |
19:25.31 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+o Gryphen] by ChanServ |
19:28.51 | Gourra | grumbles about something |
19:40.51 | *** join/#wowwiki DuTempete_ (n=DuTempet@c-67-165-143-202.hsd1.il.comcast.net) |
19:41.19 | pcj | hi dutempete :) |
19:43.24 | DuTempete_ | hi pcj :P |
19:43.30 | pcj | :P |
19:43.49 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+v DuTempete] by ChanServ |
19:44.44 | Kaso | "wookiee pedia" in google leads to wowwiki on first result |
19:52.03 | *** join/#wowwiki Tekkub (n=tekkub@WoWUIDev/WoWI/Featured/Dongle/Tekkub) |
19:52.03 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+o Tekkub] by ChanServ |
19:58.52 | *** join/#wowwiki Vallaki (i=Seraph26@c-71-194-173-6.hsd1.il.comcast.net) |
20:16.23 | *** join/#wowwiki Malgayne (n=Malgayne@cpe-66-75-244-175.san.res.rr.com) |
20:33.48 | *** join/#wowwiki sannse (n=me@wikia/pdpc.active.sannse) |
20:33.48 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+v sannse] by ChanServ |
20:43.25 | *** join/#wowwiki Gymble_10co (n=dok@AStrasbourg-251-1-71-59.w82-126.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
20:45.41 | *** join/#wowwiki pcj_2 (n=pcjjenks@pdpc/supporter/active/pcj) |
20:45.41 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+v pcj_2] by ChanServ |
20:52.27 | *** join/#wowwiki Krolmor (i=none@201-27-173-23.dsl.telesp.net.br) |
20:52.39 | *** part/#wowwiki Krolmor (i=none@201-27-173-23.dsl.telesp.net.br) |
20:55.31 | *** join/#wowwiki Furl (n=Furl@adsl-249-253-147.bna.bellsouth.net) |
20:55.47 | *** join/#wowwiki sannse_ (n=me@wikia/pdpc.active.sannse) |
20:55.47 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+v sannse_] by ChanServ |
21:03.25 | *** join/#wowwiki Skosiris (n=sgsdg@modemcable155.156-83-70.mc.videotron.ca) |
21:03.41 | *** join/#wowwiki Gymble_10co (n=dok@AStrasbourg-251-1-71-59.w82-126.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
21:18.18 | *** join/#wowwiki Mike-N-Go (n=MikeNGoS@64.193.93.197) |
21:24.23 | *** join/#wowwiki DuTempete_ (n=DuTempet@c-67-165-143-202.hsd1.il.comcast.net) |
21:25.16 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+v DuTempete] by ChanServ |
21:25.50 | *** part/#wowwiki Furl (n=Furl@adsl-249-253-147.bna.bellsouth.net) |
21:27.04 | pcj | hi dutempete |
21:27.07 | DuTempete_ | howdy |
21:27.31 | DuTempete_ | what's the stupid link command again? |
21:28.00 | pcj | /msg NickServ LINK CoolGuy CoolGuysPassword |
21:28.08 | DuTempete_ | that's what I thought... |
21:28.31 | pcj | oh |
21:28.58 | DuTempete_ | oh what? |
21:29.34 | pcj | oh, that's what you thought |
21:30.23 | pcj | well that was fun |
21:30.35 | DuTempete | heh... not sure if that did it or not... I didn't get the same messages I remember getting before :P |
21:30.41 | DuTempete | oh, yeah, all kinds |
21:31.53 | DuTempete | Somebody at #wikia is getting a little /kick happy... |
21:32.18 | DuTempete | rather snottily threatened to kick me from the channel whilst I was trying to work that out |
21:32.36 | DuTempete | not that I was an angel back... I'm feeling rather touchy today :P |
21:33.07 | DuTempete | could be that I haven't slept in over 24 hours |
21:33.14 | pcj | ~massage DuTempete |
21:33.15 | infobot | ACTION gives DuTempete a terribly relaxing full-body massage that puts DuTempete to sleep |
21:33.16 | DuTempete | rawrs. |
21:33.21 | DuTempete | nooooo |
21:33.27 | DuTempete | I have class in 2.5 hours :( |
21:33.32 | *** join/#wowwiki Krolmor (i=none@201-27-173-23.dsl.telesp.net.br) |
21:33.41 | Krolmor | holy crap. |
21:33.51 | DuTempete | naw, nothing holy about it |
21:34.01 | Krolmor | I got ganked by what seemed like 3 digits of BR hunters on gurubashi |
21:34.09 | pcj | 3 digits? |
21:34.22 | Krolmor | they were like a wall *.* |
21:34.27 | DuTempete | you know... 100+... |
21:34.36 | pcj | i didn't know a digit was a UOM |
21:35.12 | Krolmor | well.. it can be a measure of fingers ... quantity... thing |
21:35.33 | Krolmor | any of you play on a pvp realm? |
21:35.34 | pcj | so you had 3 fingers of hunters? |
21:35.35 | DuTempete | ooh, I know what made me grumpy |
21:35.43 | pcj | i play on a pvp realm |
21:35.50 | DuTempete | having to read this really horrible poetry, and produce constructive criticism for it... |
21:35.55 | pcj | ouch |
21:35.56 | Krolmor | uh no, it was more like DuTempete said, hundreds -.- |
21:35.59 | DuTempete | I also play on a pvp realm |
21:36.14 | Krolmor | hmm, which one might I ask? |
21:36.15 | *** join/#wowwiki Sky2042 (n=Sky2042@wikimedia/Izno) |
21:36.15 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+o Sky2042] by ChanServ |
21:36.16 | *** join/#wowwiki Charitwo (n=Charitwo@wikia/Charitwo) |
21:36.18 | pcj | maelstrom us |
21:36.26 | DuTempete | drak'thul US |
21:36.46 | Krolmor | I'm looking for a pvp one, but failed to get any good recommendation for one |
21:36.47 | DuTempete | and Kirkburn is my pvp nub minion... if that counts for anything |
21:36.57 | DuTempete | what faction do you play? |
21:37.14 | Krolmor | I'd like to play Ally, but it really doesn't matter all that much |
21:37.26 | DuTempete | I'm ally... we're in sore need of more on my server |
21:38.05 | Krolmor | and I think you're gonna tell me to roll horde once you see how I play, but hey.. :p |
21:38.12 | DuTempete | hehe |
21:38.34 | DuTempete | feel free to look me up on Baberi or Chaeos |
21:39.18 | DuTempete | I only play once or twice a week, atm, though :P |
21:39.24 | Krolmor | ty :) and please don't beat me up, but I'd most likely roll a hunter |
21:39.26 | *** join/#wowwiki pcj_2 (n=pcjjenks@pdpc/supporter/active/pcj) |
21:39.26 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+v pcj_2] by ChanServ |
21:39.34 | DuTempete | no, that's fine, I like hunters |
21:39.51 | Krolmor | hehe |
21:39.53 | DuTempete | great raid companions, and besides, who am I to talk? I play a warlock :P |
21:39.58 | Krolmor | xD |
21:41.19 | Krolmor | Hmm I'll go there and roll a tiny hunter and take a look around. Ty! |
22:07.55 | *** join/#wowwiki kirby (n=Charitwo@wikia/Charitwo) |
22:15.01 | *** join/#wowwiki foxlit (n=foxlit@0x573e6bae.alb2nxx18.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk) |
22:15.01 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+o foxlit] by ChanServ |
22:41.10 | *** join/#wowwiki Charitwo_ (n=Charitwo@wikia/Charitwo) |
22:49.18 | *** join/#wowwiki DuTempete_ (n=DuTempet@c-67-165-143-202.hsd1.il.comcast.net) |
22:49.18 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+v DuTempete_] by ChanServ |
22:51.10 | pcj | hi dutempete |
22:51.33 | DuTempete_ | grrr... |
22:53.17 | *** join/#wowwiki Corgan| (n=Corgan@cpe-66-91-6-220.hawaii.res.rr.com) |
22:55.03 | *** join/#wowwiki Cairenn (n=Cairenn@MMOI/Administratrix/Cairenn) |
22:55.03 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+o Cairenn] by ChanServ |
22:56.20 | *** join/#wowwiki Slackwise (n=Lance@c-98-226-38-53.hsd1.il.comcast.net) |
23:19.51 | *** join/#wowwiki Chompers (n=Chompers@cpc1-cove9-0-0-cust541.brhm.cable.ntl.com) |
23:21.56 | *** join/#wowwiki pcj (n=pcjjenks@pdpc/supporter/active/pcj) |
23:21.56 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+v pcj] by ChanServ |
23:25.56 | Krolmor | hmm newb question about Omen: If only I have it, can I see tht threat of my whole party? |
23:26.44 | sacarasc | nope |
23:26.56 | Krolmor | I'd only be able to see my own threat bar, correct? |
23:27.08 | sacarasc | yup |
23:27.34 | sacarasc | unless there's a setting i've not found for giving approximate threat readings |
23:27.54 | Krolmor | yeah, that's what I was looking for :) |
23:32.24 | *** join/#wowwiki ZetaSC (n=ZetaSC@75-169-2-91.slkc.qwest.net) |
23:52.17 | Kirkburn | Vista SP1 is out btw |
23:55.15 | foxlit | how very useless :) |
23:57.35 | *** join/#wowwiki pcj_2 (n=pcjjenks@pdpc/supporter/active/pcj) |
23:57.35 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+v pcj_2] by ChanServ |