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| 00:38.24 | Eraclito | well, /b/lizz buffed rogues. oh, they SO needed it |
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| 01:04.19 | Kirkburn|sleep | :D |
| 01:05.22 | Sky2042_afk | wonders at Kirkburn|sleep. |
| 01:05.30 | Kirkburn|sleep | heh |
| 01:05.57 | Kirkburn|sleep | It's only cause someone alerted me elsewhere that it's over 9000 |
| 01:06.39 | Kirkburn|sleep | And yet, mxs still manages to be nowhere :P |
| 01:08.13 | Adys | there arent many changes |
| 01:08.17 | Adys | patch is like 23mb |
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| 01:20.01 | *** topic/#wowwiki is Welcome to #wowwiki, please read http://wowwiki.com/WW:IRC | UI&Macros: #wowuidev | CVN: #cvn-wikia-wowwiki | http://wowwiki.com/Portal:WotLK | IT'S OVER NINE THOUSAAANNNND |
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| 01:35.00 | Adys | Kirkburn|sleep: engb |
| 01:35.09 | Adys | enus is a lot smaller |
| 01:36.04 | Kirkburn|sleep | I know - must mean lots of locale stuff |
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| 03:32.34 | kd3 | so apparently wowwiki looks like ass in chrome |
| 04:04.57 | jaxdahl | any horde here on lich king? |
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| 04:52.28 | mxs | mxs is now here :P |
| 04:52.34 | mxs | oh well |
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| 05:21.03 | kd3 | holy hell at alexstrasza's new humanoid model |
| 05:21.14 | kd3 | http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/news/2008/september/alextrasza9014.jpg |
| 05:36.50 | *** join/#wowwiki Bagginswww (n=Baggins@cpe-66-8-254-133.hawaii.res.rr.com) |
| 05:39.38 | mxs | very few achievement changes : http://a.wirebrain.de/wow/wotlk/ach/9014?diff=1 |
| 05:39.42 | mxs | mainly questnumbers |
| 05:46.34 | Bagginswww | I don't think he understands :p |
| 05:46.45 | Bagginswww | rolandius |
| 05:46.58 | Fisker- | kissed mxs btw |
| 05:46.59 | Bagginswww | well let me fill you in... his idea is that he can use |
| 05:47.10 | Bagginswww | rpg statistics to measure the size of th eplanet |
| 05:47.13 | Bagginswww | of azeroth |
| 05:47.26 | Bagginswww | now the quote he uses |
| 05:47.57 | Bagginswww | is zep trip from the Sunwell |
| 05:48.01 | Bagginswww | all the way to |
| 05:48.10 | Bagginswww | tip of Stranglethorn vale |
| 05:48.14 | Bagginswww | and that it took 80 days |
| 05:48.35 | Bagginswww | and that zeps travel 500 miles in 12 hours |
| 05:48.50 | Dotted | [05:32:32] [@kd3]: so apparently wowwiki looks like ass in chrome <- only if you use adblock |
| 05:48.50 | Bagginswww | now that basically means, if they spent 12 hours a day to sleep |
| 05:49.03 | Bagginswww | and only travelled 500 miles a day |
| 05:49.19 | Bagginswww | then it would be 40,000 miles from tip of SV to the sunwell :p |
| 05:49.26 | Bagginswww | that's unusually huge... |
| 05:49.34 | kd3 | uh... no way |
| 05:49.43 | Dotted | uh yes way |
| 05:49.48 | Bagginswww | secondly |
| 05:49.57 | Bagginswww | there is no way people could walk that |
| 05:50.10 | kd3 | earth's only ~25,000 miles around |
| 05:50.16 | Bagginswww | yep |
| 05:50.23 | mxs | I love it when people try to argue against something in a fantasy world because it isn't realisitc |
| 05:50.26 | mxs | err realistic |
| 05:50.45 | Bagginswww | well the problem is he's trying to read too much into a editor's game mechanic in the rpg |
| 05:50.57 | Bagginswww | kd3 I'd like your help on this |
| 05:51.07 | Bagginswww | maybe together we can explain to him the absurdity of his idea |
| 05:51.48 | Bagginswww | You couldn't walk 40,000 milesin four years :p |
| 05:52.23 | Bagginswww | http://www.wowwiki.com/User:Rolandius/Mentor#Azeroth_.28world.29 |
| 05:52.44 | Bagginswww | A zeppelin can cover about 500 miles in a 12- |
| 05:52.44 | Bagginswww | hour day of travel, allowing the crew time to |
| 05:52.44 | Bagginswww | rest and make any necessary repairs. |
| 05:52.53 | Bagginswww | that's one of the quotes |
| 05:52.55 | kd3 | you going back and forth on the /Mentor page? |
| 05:53.09 | Bagginswww | back and forth? |
| 05:53.19 | kd3 | where's this discussion taking place? |
| 05:53.21 | Bagginswww | One Guild expedition using the airborne |
| 05:53.21 | Bagginswww | vantage point to confirm the details of maps drawn |
| 05:53.21 | Bagginswww | by Poyli Stonesole managed to cover that pioneerâs |
| 05:53.21 | Bagginswww | trail in just under eighty days! |
| 05:53.30 | Bagginswww | there's the other quote he used to do his "math" |
| 05:53.35 | kd3 | nvm, found it |
| 05:53.36 | Bagginswww | which he believes is "accurate scale" :p |
| 05:54.23 | Bagginswww | so ya those are the two quotes my maht isn't off right? |
| 05:55.01 | Bagginswww | and 40,000 (if they made 12 hour stops) to 80,000 (assuming they didn't stop) is absurd beyond all reason, :p |
| 05:55.14 | Bagginswww | there is no way that a dwarf could walk that distance in four years |
| 05:55.33 | Bagginswww | or case of other characters walking half that distance in a few days or weeks :p |
| 05:55.50 | Bagginswww | I mean say between Stormwind and Lordaeron |
| 05:56.00 | Bagginswww | counting the travel by boat |
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| 06:03.03 | kd3 | aight, that's all I can think of at 2 am |
| 06:05.13 | Bagginswww | heh |
| 06:05.13 | Bagginswww | Point of note I did the math that you refer to, and get an absurdly large number between Sunwell Grove and Booty Bay (20,000 miles with 12-hour stops, and 40,000 miles if they don't make stops)... I mean that's astronomically larger than Earth... You wouldn't be able to walk that in four years... even if you could walk none stop with no rest... Certainly doesn't fit in with the facts we know about people traveling the distance be |
| 06:05.14 | Bagginswww | tween say Stormwind and Lordaeron in much less time than that, a couple of weeks at the most.Baggins (talk) 05:59, 1 October 2008 (UTC) |
| 06:05.17 | Bagginswww | ya posted that |
| 06:06.43 | Bagginswww | although it would be comparable to traveling from top of canada to bottom tip of south america :p |
| 06:06.51 | Bagginswww | and that's not 25,000 miles :p |
| 06:09.10 | Bagginswww | I don't know what the distance for that would be :p |
| 06:09.40 | kd3 | fires up google maps |
| 06:09.44 | ghazrilla-shatte | anyone play on shattered hand? |
| 06:13.23 | Bagginswww | oh more amusingly he took the sentence out of context |
| 06:13.32 | Bagginswww | they weren't travelign straight for 80 days |
| 06:13.52 | Bagginswww | they were taking the time to confirm details on a map |
| 06:13.57 | Bagginswww | you don't travel 500 miles an hour to do that |
| 06:14.16 | ghazrilla-shatte | does anyone? |
| 06:14.24 | kd3 | probably not in here |
| 06:14.29 | kd3 | with only ~50 users to choose from |
| 06:14.39 | ghazrilla-shatte | haha good point :P |
| 06:14.47 | ghazrilla-shatte | what server u play on kd3 |
| 06:14.52 | kd3 | medivh us |
| 06:15.01 | ghazrilla-shatte | hey my friend plays on there |
| 06:18.01 | jaxdahl | birthday problem |
| 06:18.16 | jaxdahl | the odds aren't bad that someone here also plays on a server you play on |
| 06:18.29 | kd3 | rolls his eyes |
| 06:18.30 | jaxdahl | the odds are pretty bad that YOU play on the same server I do |
| 06:19.01 | jaxdahl | trying to get wireless working on my laptop with ubuntu |
| 06:20.13 | Lukian | jaxdahl, that shouldn't be too hard these days |
| 06:21.19 | jaxdahl | it's a relatively new wireless chipset |
| 06:21.27 | jaxdahl | so i'm having to use intrepid ibex |
| 06:21.48 | jaxdahl | trying this: http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=5754065&postcount=62 |
| 06:22.58 | jaxdahl | wonders how much erotic fan art is going to be produced now of alexstrasza |
| 06:23.10 | kd3 | entirely too much |
| 06:28.39 | jaxdahl | *compile faster* |
| 06:31.43 | jaxdahl | hmm, doesn't want to unload the modules |
| 06:33.27 | Dotted | kd3 can never be too much much |
| 06:33.32 | Dotted | rule 34 and all |
| 06:33.39 | kd3 | shudders |
| 06:37.48 | jaxdahl | hooray |
| 06:37.49 | jaxdahl | it worked |
| 06:38.12 | jaxdahl | i had to manually unload the modules that depended on the ones it was trying to unload in 'make unload' |
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| 07:12.36 | g0urra | it's quite over 9000. |
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| 07:25.32 | soufron | hello |
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| 07:36.12 | g0urra | !jobqueue |
| 07:36.14 | Dotted | The job queue length is currently 82462 |
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| 11:18.07 | Ricanelite | Good Morning everyone! |
| 11:23.09 | g0urra | morning Ricanelite |
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| 11:43.49 | Ricanelite | nm just trying to figure out what character i want to start in |
| 11:46.39 | g0urra | nelf hunter |
| 11:47.26 | Ricanelite | i was going to go with that and also looking at Night Elf/Druid? |
| 11:47.36 | winkiller | lol |
| 11:47.40 | winkiller | name it Stereotype |
| 11:47.42 | winkiller | (the hunter) |
| 11:47.53 | Ricanelite | why? |
| 11:47.59 | winkiller | that's what it is |
| 11:48.10 | sacarasc | everyone has a nelf hunter |
| 11:48.23 | winkiller | http://census.monohedron.de/ -> chars by race and class |
| 11:48.25 | Ricanelite | oh so i dont want that |
| 11:48.51 | winkiller | but Alliance only NE can be druids, and only Draenei can be Shaman, and more people play Alliance |
| 11:49.01 | winkiller | so the only "choice" class, NE hunter is #1 |
| 11:49.22 | winkiller | Troll Warrior is like least popular :D |
| 11:49.47 | Ricanelite | lol |
| 11:50.19 | winkiller | (that table is not 100% accurate, ofc) |
| 11:59.20 | amro | jaxdahl: why did you challenge rule 34 >< |
| 11:59.26 | amro | if you keep quiet about it it might not happen |
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| 12:52.01 | LucidFox | If I admire my character's body, does this count as narcissism? |
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| 12:56.43 | winkiller | nope |
| 12:56.48 | winkiller | but as a twisted mind |
| 12:56.49 | winkiller | if it |
| 12:56.59 | winkiller | if it's neither human or nelf |
| 12:57.23 | winkiller | well,female orcs are also ok I guess |
| 12:57.38 | winkiller | just the unhealthy skin tone |
| 12:57.47 | winkiller | but cows = zoophiliac |
| 12:57.52 | winkiller | undead = necrophiliac |
| 12:57.58 | winkiller | gnomes = midgeto..whatever |
| 12:58.11 | winkiller | draenei = zoophiliac again I guess |
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| 12:58.31 | winkiller | blood elf = hello to bulimia |
| 13:03.47 | LucidFox | winkiller> female draenei |
| 13:03.52 | LucidFox | Zoophiliac? |
| 13:03.53 | LucidFox | How so? |
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| 13:07.15 | winkiller | SQUID |
| 13:07.19 | winkiller | goat :P |
| 13:07.26 | winkiller | goat horns ;) |
| 13:08.03 | winkiller | so many "paling" chars here |
| 13:08.26 | winkiller | =eel in most scandinavian labguages |
| 13:08.43 | g0urra | ål? |
| 13:08.50 | winkiller | said most |
| 13:09.54 | g0urra | in norwegian it's ålefisk/ålefisker, in danish it's ålefisk |
| 13:10.16 | winkiller | yeah sorry, just looked it up |
| 13:10.20 | winkiller | was only dutch |
| 13:10.35 | winkiller | and afrikaans aopparently |
| 13:11.13 | winkiller | still too pissed :< |
| 13:12.29 | winkiller | what does whale translate to then? |
| 13:21.01 | g0urra | val |
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| 13:33.41 | LucidFox | winkiller> So, why zoophilia? (Sorry if you replied earlier... I didn't see it because of the stupid connection) |
| 13:42.44 | g0urra | http://www.wowwiki.com/Image:Naz%27anak-_The_Forgotten_Depths.jpg |
| 13:43.29 | g0urra | looks cozy, doesn't it? :p |
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| 13:53.04 | Fisker- | why so g0urra? |
| 13:54.57 | Ragestorm | All the ice, the ruins... quite cozy. |
| 13:55.13 | Ragestorm | If you like ice and ruins, of course |
| 14:07.15 | Kirkburn | Yay! http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7645059.stm |
| 14:07.24 | Kirkburn | And good morning |
| 14:07.53 | Kalroth | morning Kirky baby |
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| 15:45.59 | Kirkburn | g0urra, nice new model |
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| 15:46.22 | Kirkburn | I have no idea if you already linked it here - but for Bagginsww: http://www.wowwiki.com/Image:Vereesa_Windrunner.jpg |
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| 15:49.18 | Lucah | ohhello. |
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| 15:57.24 | g0urra | hello Lucah |
| 15:57.36 | Lucah | what's up. |
| 15:59.24 | g0urra | Kirkburn, are the yellow areas at "gaming" to the top left and "more" to the top right gone for you too? |
| 16:00.02 | Kirkburn | Aye |
| 16:00.53 | Kirkburn | Looks like a URL was changed |
| 16:02.13 | Kirkburn | I'll fix |
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| 16:10.29 | Kirkburn | g0urra, should be fixed now when CSS updates |
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| 16:35.53 | Kirkburn | Yay, I've got my flight to BlizzCon booked |
| 16:38.29 | g0urra | :< |
| 16:38.43 | KyleH` | Congrats! ... that only took a month longer than it needed to :P |
| 16:38.53 | g0urra | I wish I could go too ;_; |
| 16:38.55 | g0urra | !jobqueue |
| 16:38.58 | Dotted | The job queue length is currently 111260 |
| 16:39.06 | kd3 | @_@ |
| 16:39.17 | g0urra | ITS OVER NINE THOUSAND |
| 16:40.20 | kd3 | 111k transclusions of tooltip or is the wiki still working through the cost change too? |
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| 16:44.46 | g0urra | I don't know, I didn't check before I edited tooltip |
| 16:47.15 | Kirkburn | KyleH`, :D |
| 16:47.17 | Fisker- | Kirkburn you won't get to blizzcon |
| 16:47.23 | Fisker- | i will take your identity |
| 16:48.30 | Kirkburn | Fairly sure you're not supposed to tell me |
| 16:49.02 | Fisker- | i'm confident |
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| 16:53.57 | *** join/#wowwiki Omen (n=hf@cpc2-stme1-0-0-cust175.cdif.cable.ntl.com) |
| 16:56.18 | Omen | Hey guys. Would you all mind if I copied the ensuing conversation and used it for my English Language assignment? I'm examining the language of online gaming |
| 16:56.33 | Omen | I feel it's best to get consent first |
| 16:57.48 | Lucah | Are you kidding? |
| 16:57.57 | Adys | ... in a wow channel? |
| 16:58.02 | Omen | not at all. |
| 16:58.16 | Lucah | Well I'm in no position to say anything but go for it. Enjoy your F. :D |
| 16:58.18 | Adys | we're gonna have to kickban Fisker- then |
| 16:58.20 | Lucah | Ikid. |
| 16:58.31 | Omen | well, i dont play WoW anymore, so i cant get any actual in-game chatting |
| 16:58.50 | Omen | figure the next best thing is IRC xD |
| 16:58.57 | mxs | "the language of online gaming" ? You must be joking. But as to your question, what purpose does it serve ? You are not gonna get all the participants here to reply to you, and assuming consent by silence on IRC is folly at best |
| 16:59.25 | amro | ~sexleg Omen |
| 16:59.26 | infobot | Omen has sex leg |
| 16:59.34 | amro | that kind of language? |
| 16:59.37 | mxs | IRC language differs wildly from in-game language, which differs wildly from general chat to guild chat to whispers |
| 17:00.04 | mxs | besides, pcj will just draw it all into the gutter |
| 17:00.31 | Omen | in hindsight, IRC was a very bad idea |
| 17:00.31 | mxs | though I'm sure Fisker- will manage to troll the hell out of you by quoting Kant, soon |
| 17:00.54 | Omen | enjoy |
| 17:01.15 | mxs | good luck with your homework though. Oh, and as for WoW chat : trial account are available. |
| 17:01.23 | Adys | he's gone |
| 17:01.27 | mxs | yeah, noticed |
| 17:01.33 | amro | I love that |
| 17:01.39 | mxs | the language of online gaming ... |
| 17:01.44 | amro | but still doesn't beat: |
| 17:01.50 | amro | Anyone here? |
| 17:01.52 | amro | (parts) |
| 17:02.14 | mxs | you forgot the "you all suck" before (parts) |
| 17:02.44 | mxs | though the best would have to be an insult before /ignore (in irc or in WoW, doesn't matter) |
| 17:02.59 | mxs | you reall show your opponent who's boss by having him send his retort into the bitbucket |
| 17:03.07 | mxs | err really |
| 17:03.36 | Adys | * Randomdude has joined the guild. |
| 17:03.38 | Adys | [Guild] [Randomdude]: HI ANY1 HERE |
| 17:03.43 | Adys | * Randomdude has left the guild. |
| 17:04.03 | Lucah | Well to be fair. |
| 17:04.08 | Adys | "if wow was IRC", part 1 |
| 17:04.10 | Lucah | Guilds where people just APPEAR ALL THE TIME suck anyway. :I |
| 17:04.19 | Kirkburn | Adys, lol |
| 17:04.36 | Kirkburn | It's 3am, WHY IS NO-ONE TALKING |
| 17:04.49 | Adys | 3am in my ex guild, you had a lot of people online |
| 17:05.08 | mxs | 3am in my guild, I rob the bank |
| 17:05.12 | Kirkburn | hehe |
| 17:05.22 | Adys | Interesting goldspam on trade chat |
| 17:05.31 | Adys | perhaps something subliminal in it but |
| 17:05.46 | Adys | they give 3 lines about how good their service is, how many people use it etc etc |
| 17:05.50 | Adys | but dont give any name or URL |
| 17:05.55 | mxs | nice .< |
| 17:05.56 | mxs | err :> |
| 17:06.10 | mxs | we had one spell out their url in dead gnomes |
| 17:06.47 | mxs | i.e. in front of the bank in ironforge, you'd have about twelve dozen dead gnomes perfectly arranged spelling out their website |
| 17:07.01 | mxs | took a while for GMs to fix that |
| 17:07.26 | ANTRat | thats impressive |
| 17:07.44 | amro | Adys: waiting for whispers perhaps? |
| 17:07.51 | Fisker- | nah |
| 17:07.55 | mxs | I assume they used a bot with free movement and just drop em from high on the z axis |
| 17:07.59 | Fisker- | They were probably filtered |
| 17:08.19 | amro | yeah they drop the URL because of filtering |
| 17:08.32 | Fisker- | Nah i mean their url was probably filtered |
| 17:08.35 | Adys | the message is not sent |
| 17:08.40 | Fisker- | so they'll have to come up with a new site or another way to write the site |
| 17:08.44 | Adys | if the url is filtered |
| 17:08.47 | amro | what adys said |
| 17:08.53 | ANTRat | it may be 2 part message/spam |
| 17:08.53 | Fisker- | "3 lines" = 3 messages |
| 17:08.58 | Adys | try sending http://www.mmo-champion.com ingame |
| 17:09.12 | Adys | no its a 1 message contianing 3 lines. |
| 17:09.15 | mxs | they filtered that ? |
| 17:09.25 | Fisker- | Then they still probably ran out of space |
| 17:09.29 | amro | yeah they filter crappy sites |
| 17:09.31 | amro | ducks |
| 17:09.33 | Fisker- | a lot of stuff is filtered mxs >:3 |
| 17:09.42 | mxs | Fisker-: wirebrain ain't :> |
| 17:10.08 | Adys | they filter http://(.*)mmo(.*)\.(*.) afaik |
| 17:10.14 | Adys | .* even |
| 17:11.06 | mxs | it's not like goldsellers can easily pay a new domain from less than one sale, and set it up in seconds |
| 17:11.13 | mxs | probably less work than setting up the spambots |
| 17:11.51 | mxs | surprised none of em use tinyurl |
| 17:11.52 | Adys | domain names are lol |
| 17:11.58 | amro | dunno why they don't just filter all URLs from trail accounts |
| 17:12.15 | mxs | amro: trial accounts are severely limited |
| 17:12.26 | mxs | but wow phishing is alive and kicking |
| 17:12.43 | Fisker- | that's exactly it Adys :P |
| 17:12.59 | Fisker- | They try to filter out common words |
| 17:13.00 | Adys | yay |
| 17:13.00 | mxs | if blizz actually cared, they'd put in authenticators into every retail wotlk box |
| 17:13.06 | Fisker- | Which is why wirebrain isn't filtered etc. |
| 17:13.17 | Adys | seriously mxs, i doubt that and I hope not |
| 17:13.23 | Adys | the authenticator is a pita |
| 17:13.27 | mxs | yes, it is |
| 17:13.33 | Fisker- | People would just refuse to use them |
| 17:13.43 | Fisker- | Unless they linked cd-key to authenticator and forced it activated |
| 17:13.45 | mxs | a lot more would be using them that are now |
| 17:13.56 | Adys | money wasted on something people should be buying |
| 17:14.05 | Adys | (which they usually throw away later on too) |
| 17:14.09 | Fisker- | Not to mention that they would expect to make somewhere in the region of atleast ~5 million authenticators |
| 17:14.18 | amro | if they're stupid enough to have their account stolen they're too stupid to use the authenticator |
| 17:14.27 | *** join/#wowwiki foxlit (n=foxlit@0x573e6bae.alb2nxx18.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk) |
| 17:14.27 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+o foxlit] by ChanServ |
| 17:14.39 | mxs | amro: so you never installed adobe flash then ? |
| 17:14.46 | Adys | hahahah |
| 17:14.53 | Adys | the word you shouldnt have said |
| 17:14.59 | amro | it gets me... |
| 17:15.01 | amro | ANGRY |
| 17:15.16 | mxs | don't get me wrong, I hate flash : |
| 17:15.17 | mxs | P |
| 17:15.20 | amro | but yeah, i do have Flash CS3 Professional. the whole shebang |
| 17:15.27 | mxs | I'd very much like SVG + Ecmascript to be usable |
| 17:15.46 | amro | but I've never been compromised |
| 17:15.51 | mxs | or, hell, smil |
| 17:15.54 | amro | and the same goes for you im sure |
| 17:16.18 | mxs | true, but I am not about to claim that I am immune to any such attack -- that would be rather arrogant |
| 17:16.34 | Adys | I'm immune to such attacks and you all suck |
| 17:16.46 | amro | yeah, but you're careful enough that you won't be caught in one unless it's targeted at you specifically |
| 17:16.59 | amro | besides, I wouldn't run wow from windows anyway |
| 17:17.17 | amro | (even if I wanted to. I'd get crappy framerates) |
| 17:17.56 | amro | and most people were probably attacked from another angle |
| 17:18.02 | mxs | amro: that's just the thing ... People trust several sites implicitly. Most sites run advertising. Many include flash. Some trusted sites will need flash enabled for features. Ad companies are NOT known for their stringent security checks on the ads their customers give them |
| 17:18.39 | amro | yeah but it was fixed |
| 17:18.39 | amro | a long time ago too |
| 17:18.39 | mxs | yeah, phishing scams are really common |
| 17:18.42 | mxs | amro: honestly, I have not one iota of faith in that codebase |
| 17:19.01 | amro | I have even less faith in it, but they did plug that specific hole at least |
| 17:19.32 | mxs | that is rather irrelevant |
| 17:19.53 | mxs | if you want to be scared for a bit, sample the visitors of any large website |
| 17:20.01 | amro | yeah |
| 17:20.01 | mxs | check the versions of stuff they use |
| 17:20.02 | amro | I know |
| 17:20.04 | winkiller | any sub rogue near? |
| 17:20.21 | mxs | the version of flash is usually outdated, even if they run the latest browser |
| 17:20.23 | amro | but here's where you forgot what I said earlier |
| 17:20.29 | amro | [18:15] <amro> if they're stupid enough to have their account stolen they're too stupid to use the authenticator |
| 17:20.31 | mxs | (which is way too uncommon) |
| 17:20.39 | amro | those people are stupid and wouldn't be helped by the authenticator |
| 17:21.06 | mxs | I'd posit that it's not stupid not to upgrade all your software weekly |
| 17:21.14 | mxs | (or expect that that's necessary) |
| 17:21.39 | amro | it's stupid to not upgrade to fix a SERIOUS security flaw, especially one advertised on WoW's login screden |
| 17:21.41 | amro | screen* |
| 17:21.44 | mxs | which is one reason I really, really, REALLY like the groundwork Chrome is doing in that area |
| 17:22.07 | Adys | :) |
| 17:22.19 | amro | stabs Adys |
| 17:22.23 | amro | no chrome for you! |
| 17:22.23 | amro | :P |
| 17:22.27 | amro | at least not yet |
| 17:22.38 | Adys | cxchromium works kinda well |
| 17:22.51 | amro | 'kinda' can mean lots of things |
| 17:22.56 | mxs | though capabilities on Windows are pretty much unheard of elsewhere |
| 17:22.58 | mxs | which is a shame |
| 17:23.18 | amro | mxs: ? |
| 17:23.19 | mxs | hell, top of your head, name an equivalent of SELinux or AppArmor on Win32 |
| 17:23.25 | Fisker- | argh |
| 17:23.37 | Fisker- | why do everyone have to make bomberman clones for PSP, Wii, etc. and not the PC? :( |
| 17:23.38 | amro | capabilities? or vulnerabilities? |
| 17:23.41 | mxs | amro: capabilities as in very fine-grained process/role capabilities |
| 17:23.46 | mxs | capabilities |
| 17:23.46 | Adys | kinda = its slower than firefox |
| 17:23.47 | amro | oh |
| 17:23.54 | Adys | but it never crashed so far |
| 17:23.57 | amro | that's a big kinda :) |
| 17:23.58 | mxs | vulnerabilities really don't matter much if capabilities are set right |
| 17:24.11 | amro | yeah and if they're wrong it creates vulnerabilities |
| 17:24.15 | amro | which is the case |
| 17:24.32 | mxs | no, that's precisely it |
| 17:25.10 | mxs | if your application segfaults with a nifty overflow or other such thing and the syscaps for that process are set properly, it can't do much damage |
| 17:25.24 | amro | yah |
| 17:25.36 | mxs | there is no good reason why flash should need access to the filesystem at all, for instance, at least in the default case -- or even most libraries |
| 17:25.43 | mxs | let alone many system calls |
| 17:25.51 | *** join/#wowwiki WyriHaximus (n=jezussie@i131220.upc-i.chello.nl) |
| 17:26.03 | mxs | Java got that partly right, but not really |
| 17:26.10 | amro | flash sucks. and the filesystem access is there for a coupl of reasons |
| 17:26.17 | mxs | no valid ones. |
| 17:26.23 | amro | caching and direct file access for local applications |
| 17:26.26 | amro | both are valid |
| 17:26.31 | mxs | in 99.998% of all flash use today, it is not needed. |
| 17:26.39 | amro | I use it all the time |
| 17:26.56 | amro | would be impractical to test my code otherwise |
| 17:26.58 | mxs | does it need to be on by default ? |
| 17:27.06 | amro | that's another issue |
| 17:27.09 | mxs | on every installation everywhere ? |
| 17:27.10 | mxs | :) |
| 17:27.26 | mxs | and if you need it for caching, is there any valid reason not to chroot it to that directory ? |
| 17:27.50 | mxs | The sad thing is that I doubt anybody at Adobe or Macromedia ever even considered that question |
| 17:27.50 | amro | windows can't do that? (dunno, but I wouldn't be surprised) |
| 17:27.59 | amro | flash is a piece of crap |
| 17:28.04 | amro | the stinkiest there ever was |
| 17:28.17 | amro | the API is the worst part |
| 17:28.23 | mxs | don't sell gwbasic short |
| 17:28.26 | amro | actually the debugger is worse |
| 17:28.48 | mxs | I am one of the people who actually loved debug.com |
| 17:28.54 | amro | I hate flash more because it monopolized interactive internet content |
| 17:29.21 | amro | talking about flash debugger |
| 17:29.37 | mxs | yeah, and I am talking about MS-DOS 5.0 debug.com |
| 17:29.43 | mxs | you could code assembler in it ! |
| 17:29.48 | mxs | a free assembler ! :> |
| 17:30.00 | mxs | (back when TASM or even MASM were $$$) |
| 17:30.29 | amro | point is, people are dumb and will screw up |
| 17:30.38 | amro | you can put as many failsafes as you want |
| 17:30.45 | mxs | of course you'd need to predict how many opcodes your code would need so as to set the jump address right :> |
| 17:30.51 | amro | they'll just give their password to a phising email or whatever |
| 17:30.55 | mxs | yeah |
| 17:31.09 | mxs | but saying that that's solely the responsibility of "people" is short-sighted |
| 17:31.17 | amro | 'course not |
| 17:31.33 | mxs | it's as much a technological problem as that |
| 17:31.38 | amro | but blizzard can't help windows being more vulnerable than a cheap whore |
| 17:32.21 | g0urra | >:3 |
| 17:32.22 | mxs | not exactly true, but they are doing the bare minimum |
| 17:32.36 | mxs | plus the authenticator, which looks like a moneymaker more than anything else |
| 17:32.41 | amro | what else could they do? |
| 17:32.55 | mxs | USB dongle |
| 17:33.05 | mxs | with a trail |
| 17:33.35 | amro | nah |
| 17:33.47 | amro | that's something they don't have to do |
| 17:33.49 | mxs | i.e. you can only log in on the machine that has dongle with ID X if you set your account to that. Even if not, you can record dongle X's use in conjunction with the login attempt |
| 17:33.59 | mxs | exactly, so I said "bare minimum" |
| 17:34.17 | mxs | which is OK, nobody else is doing any more either :) |
| 17:34.21 | amro | bare minimum sounds like they could do much more with minimal effort |
| 17:34.24 | amro | lol yeah |
| 17:34.32 | mxs | well, banks are |
| 17:34.47 | amro | actually you'd be surprised :) |
| 17:35.00 | mxs | and I'd really love to know whether I could make WoW patch itself with a rogue patch if I hijack us.version.worldofwarcraft.com |
| 17:35.06 | amro | some banks are (were) quite insecure, dunno how they got away with it |
| 17:35.14 | mxs | ok, decent banks |
| 17:35.19 | amro | better :) |
| 17:35.32 | mxs | all the German online banks use at least TANs |
| 17:35.40 | amro | but banks bank their entire business on security of transactions |
| 17:35.54 | mxs | so even if you get to spy on the transactions, it is much harder to transfer money |
| 17:36.03 | amro | and a stolen bank account could ruin someone's life |
| 17:36.08 | mxs | uh |
| 17:36.10 | amro | rather than their character's |
| 17:36.14 | mxs | and what do you dream of at night ? |
| 17:36.16 | amro | so there's much more incentive |
| 17:36.27 | mxs | banks have almost NO incentive to keep your data secure |
| 17:36.41 | mxs | if they fuck up, YOU get to be the guy who has to restore his credit |
| 17:36.45 | amro | yeah |
| 17:36.55 | mxs | social engineering works well on banks, even to this day |
| 17:36.59 | amro | and YOU get to be the guy who ruins their reputation, while a rival bank touts their security |
| 17:37.09 | mxs | they appear secure at a casual glance, but that's mostly just show |
| 17:37.10 | amro | (assuming an insecure web interface) |
| 17:37.17 | *** join/#wowwiki sannse (n=me@wikia/pdpc.active.sannse) |
| 17:37.17 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+v sannse] by ChanServ |
| 17:37.50 | mxs | actually, most banks I look at have given at least some thought to interface security, some even go too far |
| 17:38.04 | mxs | but walk into one of their offices confidently |
| 17:38.12 | mxs | or get them on the phone posing as an old lady |
| 17:38.18 | amro | yea |
| 17:38.28 | amro | that's not something that can be automatically exploited by a script |
| 17:38.40 | amro | I wouldn't consider it as bad as an insecure interfac |
| 17:38.54 | mxs | hell, I can get credit cards in other people's names easily, with data not THAT hard to obtain (and data people would not expect to need to secure) |
| 17:39.10 | amro | that's another subject entirely |
| 17:39.20 | mxs | no, but it is something that will cause the targeted party a lot of grief |
| 17:39.20 | amro | we're talking about computer applications here |
| 17:39.33 | mxs | and the banks have no incentive to stop that from happening really |
| 17:39.34 | amro | it's something I'm not interested in arguing |
| 17:40.10 | amro | yea because it's something that affects a minority of their clients |
| 17:40.28 | mxs | hehe :) |
| 17:40.28 | mxs | hell, look at paypal |
| 17:40.28 | mxs | there is a reason it's so successfull |
| 17:40.28 | mxs | it's easy to the point of being too easy and easily insecure |
| 17:40.30 | mxs | all you need is an email address and a password |
| 17:40.32 | mxs | most people will use their main email address, so that's easy |
| 17:40.40 | amro | uh |
| 17:40.44 | mxs | and the password, I can name 10 people off the top of my head that would use a password I could guess in 3 tries |
| 17:40.50 | amro | yeah |
| 17:40.54 | amro | that's entirely their fault |
| 17:40.56 | amro | and not paypal's |
| 17:41.09 | mxs | partly their fault, yes |
| 17:41.23 | amro | besides, the instructions are pretty clear on using a good password, so if you don't its your loss |
| 17:41.46 | mxs | though I'd posit that the idea of a "password" is already leading people on the wrong track. |
| 17:41.46 | amro | nope entirely theirs. don't use a guessable password |
| 17:42.01 | mxs | oh, that's easy for a techie to say. |
| 17:42.16 | mxs | first of all, it says "password" usually. As in ... a word. |
| 17:42.29 | amro | I wanted to save time by saying "good passwords" |
| 17:42.30 | mxs | it conjures up images of real-life applications of pass-words |
| 17:42.42 | amro | by "pretty clear" I meant it gave the criteria for a good password |
| 17:42.50 | amro | includes numbers/etc |
| 17:43.39 | amro | at the end of the day, someone picking a bad password (regardless of how they were informed) is not a technological security issue |
| 17:43.51 | mxs | which do not have the same problems as computer passwords do (you can give the same password to your fiancée as a safeword during sex and as the password at a bar -- compromising one will not lead to the other, really) |
| 17:43.59 | winkiller | keylogger > good password |
| 17:44.11 | amro | that's another topic |
| 17:44.16 | amro | windows sucks |
| 17:44.37 | mxs | picking a good password and using it at more than one site is bad, too |
| 17:44.42 | amro | and they can't do anymore about that than blizzard, which is my point |
| 17:44.53 | mxs | but then again, every site wants a password, and they all tell you not to write it down |
| 17:45.11 | amro | again, it's up to the individual |
| 17:45.21 | amro | im talking about technical flaws here >< |
| 17:45.28 | mxs | that's the easy way out, ignoring the problem :) |
| 17:45.29 | amro | exploitable vulnerabilities in software |
| 17:45.33 | amro | well |
| 17:45.39 | amro | im not here to discuss the problem |
| 17:45.43 | mxs | it is a problem that should get help by a technological fix |
| 17:45.54 | amro | im here to discuss what blizzard can do to overcome windows's security flaws |
| 17:46.08 | mxs | some people tried (single-sign-on went into that direction, but so far all of those attempts are shitty, and NONE are universal) |
| 17:46.09 | amro | so don't go off on a tangent please :) |
| 17:46.41 | mxs | well, a usb dongle in every warcraft box would already help. Would cost them $2 or so, |
| 17:46.59 | amro | why would they? |
| 17:47.14 | mxs | it'll create other issues (replacement ? loss ? etc.), but it would make account theft a LOT harder |
| 17:47.18 | amro | a relatively small number get keylogged |
| 17:47.20 | mxs | (in the general case) |
| 17:47.26 | amro | not worth shipping millions of dongles |
| 17:47.40 | Adys | you guys are still talking about this? |
| 17:47.51 | amro | ~whalenuke Adys |
| 17:47.52 | infobot | ACTION dons her radiation cloak and tinted glasses while a highly intelligent whale named Ray precipitates critical mass for uncontrolled nuclear fission around Adys with his mind powers. |
| 17:48.07 | mxs | amro: heh ... I wonder when the big botnet owners turn on the wow-phishers :P |
| 17:48.08 | Adys | I had time to order souvlakis, clean up the living room and fix a door |
| 17:48.16 | mxs | (or rather, loggers) |
| 17:49.08 | mxs | amro: but ok, non-hardware. How about letting people choose their IP range ? |
| 17:49.22 | mxs | or to make it better for non-techies : ISP |
| 17:49.31 | mxs | It's easy to check an IP against an AS |
| 17:50.54 | amro | mxs: you're thinking too much into this |
| 17:51.16 | amro | heck I can log on to any service with just a uname/password |
| 17:51.49 | mxs | that's the easy way out "All the others do it, so we should, too" :) |
| 17:52.01 | amro | that's not what I mant |
| 17:52.02 | amro | meant* |
| 17:52.26 | amro | if it's good enough for the money in my paypal account, it's good enough for teh gold in my wow account |
| 17:52.45 | mxs | point being that it isn't really good enough for the money in your paypal account :P |
| 17:52.48 | amro | if you want security, be careful and keep your yes open |
| 17:53.15 | amro | eyes* |
| 17:53.33 | amro | it certainly is. |
| 17:53.56 | amro | you just need to protect that password, which you can do trivially |
| 17:54.19 | winkiller | gief ssh key auth |
| 17:54.27 | winkiller | for every damn login |
| 17:54.43 | winkiller | perfect for an MMO |
| 17:54.49 | winkiller | *any |
| 17:55.01 | mxs | winkiller: would not change a thing. |
| 17:55.31 | mxs | winkiller: keylogger or keyfilegrabber is synonymous, really |
| 17:56.04 | mxs | and the attack ssh auth protects against (mitm, eavesdroppers) just isn't a real factor for WoW |
| 17:56.07 | g0urra | !jobqueue |
| 17:56.11 | Dotted | The job queue length is currently 111264 |
| 17:56.12 | winkiller | mhm, tru |
| 17:56.31 | winkiller | unless you'd need to wait for those keyloggers at first |
| 17:56.32 | amro | mxs: if you restrict by ISP, they'll route around it. or use a zombie. and if you pick your IP... anyone who would probably doesn't need to |
| 17:56.40 | mxs | though I agree on one point, true smartcard capability would ROCK, even if it was optional |
| 17:57.01 | amro | mxs: the real issue |
| 17:57.14 | amro | instead of beating around the bush and using workarounds |
| 17:57.17 | mxs | amro: that's a lot harder to do already though. Have it log successful-password attempts from wrong ISPs, too, and warn the user on next login |
| 17:57.26 | amro | is to protect your system from unwanted software (keyloggers) |
| 17:57.46 | mxs | (hell, WoW does not even tell you how many attempts with a wrong password you had since oyu last logged in successfully) |
| 17:57.53 | amro | i mean, protect yourself all you want with complicated schemes, but if there's unwanted software on your computer you're screwed already in my book |
| 17:57.54 | winkiller | yeah |
| 17:58.07 | winkiller | any news about mac keyloggers? |
| 17:58.32 | amro | working around keyloggers is wasted effort |
| 17:58.33 | mxs | it's not complicated schemes I am after, and I'd argue they can be uncomplicated. |
| 17:58.43 | amro | I'd argue they're a waste of time |
| 17:58.49 | mxs | Though quite honestly, a smartcard would defeat any keylogger. |
| 17:58.51 | mxs | Period. |
| 18:00.04 | amro | yeah my linux system also defeats any keylogger out there |
| 18:00.24 | amro | blizzard doesn't want to wast time doing microsoft's work |
| 18:00.37 | mxs | amro: whether it is pointless or not really just depends on how high a value you set on your account security. I'd love the ability to set an IP range for my account, or the ability to use key-auth or the ability to use a smartcard. |
| 18:01.09 | mxs | amro, winkiller : that's a pretty arrogant stance to take. Neither Linux nor Mac OS X are immune to keylogging. |
| 18:01.20 | winkiller | I didn't make any stance |
| 18:01.29 | winkiller | I asked if there were reports about mac ones |
| 18:01.30 | mxs | winkiller: it sounded like a suggestive question :> |
| 18:01.36 | winkiller | because I never heard about it |
| 18:01.46 | winkiller | with 5-10% mac players (my estimate) 8) |
| 18:01.48 | amro | they are actually. unless you install them yourself. same thing as giving away your dongle |
| 18:02.44 | mxs | amro: so linux has a magic pill against buffer overflows ? The keyboard-input that arrives in userspace is somehow not susecptible to interception ? |
| 18:02.45 | amro | there's little purpose in working around keyloggers if /unwanted software can be installed on your computer without your knowledge/ |
| 18:03.26 | mxs | can happen just as easily on *ix-systems, though it's confined to user homedir usually :> |
| 18:03.29 | amro | mxs: buffer overflows happen, they don't grant root acces though |
| 18:03.41 | mxs | root access is not necessary to install executable code |
| 18:03.41 | amro | keyboard input is interceptable, but i'd have to install that program |
| 18:03.47 | amro | and im careful about what to install |
| 18:04.02 | amro | mxs: to make it undetectable and run automatically, it is |
| 18:04.20 | mxs | so you check the contents of .profile on every login ? |
| 18:04.26 | amro | wow |
| 18:04.29 | amro | you know what |
| 18:04.31 | amro | fion |
| 18:04.32 | amro | fine |
| 18:04.33 | mxs | hehe |
| 18:04.36 | mxs | I did it ! |
| 18:04.37 | amro | linux is just as vulnrable |
| 18:04.39 | amro | WE ALL ARE |
| 18:04.39 | mxs | I made him mad ! |
| 18:04.53 | amro | no you made me realize im wasting time when I should be working |
| 18:04.58 | mxs | hehe |
| 18:05.00 | amro | with flash, would you believe |
| 18:05.18 | amro | but seriously, you sound like you have a tinfoil hat |
| 18:05.26 | mxs | though you are right, the security model on Windows blows even worse :> |
| 18:05.31 | amro | show proof of a vulnerability instead of speaking hypothetically |
| 18:05.34 | mxs | it's my job to have a tinfoil hat |
| 18:05.53 | amro | tinfoil hats don't help. critical thinking does |
| 18:05.58 | mxs | that line of thinking does not generate secure systems :> |
| 18:06.18 | amro | neither does considering everything to be insecure |
| 18:06.19 | mxs | well yeah, and critical thinking in the security field requires thinking of the worst-case scenario, first |
| 18:06.24 | amro | yeah |
| 18:06.31 | amro | and that requires a proof of concept |
| 18:06.45 | mxs | actually, that is precisely what one should be doing, until you can prove to yourself that it's not |
| 18:07.27 | amro | yeah. enough work on that has be done to convince me, and at this point you'd need to show an exploit if you want to convince me otherwise |
| 18:07.30 | mxs | not necessarily. I do not require a PoC of an exploit to get root privileges to consider BSD jails a good idea, even if what I am jailing is, to my knowledge, completely secure :) |
| 18:07.31 | amro | im not saying it's 100% immune |
| 18:07.53 | amro | but it's secure enough to ward against unwanted software in 99% of cases |
| 18:09.18 | mxs | Well, let's assume I can find a buffer overflow somewhere in your browser chain and can con you into going to a prepared page (which is, frankly, not /that/ unbelievable; I doubt all the escalation-bugs are out of FireFox or any other browser or plugin, yet :) |
| 18:09.33 | amro | yeah, that's the 1% |
| 18:09.57 | mxs | well, that's the exact same thing happening on Windows for unwanted software |
| 18:10.03 | amro | open source allows you to spot and exploit buffer overflows, but there are also people who are spotting and fixing them |
| 18:10.10 | mxs | other than "user error" with mindlessly pressing "ok" |
| 18:10.28 | amro | except windows uses administrator privileges by default, even in vista (which surprised me) |
| 18:10.36 | amro | so any damage is multiplied |
| 18:10.43 | mxs | well |
| 18:10.51 | mxs | if you are a multiuser machine |
| 18:11.08 | mxs | which isn't the case in most cases. For most people, hosing the homedir is equivalent to hosing / |
| 18:11.15 | amro | not only that. it can screw with system files, requiring a reinstall |
| 18:11.21 | mxs | true |
| 18:11.36 | amro | or hide itself well |
| 18:11.37 | mxs | but malicious code, really, can already do a lot of harm with just user privileges |
| 18:12.04 | amro | yes, not using admin isn't a failsaf |
| 18:12.11 | amro | it's just the most basic thing you can do |
| 18:12.41 | mxs | well, if you don't know the signs, you'll never be the wiser with user-hidden files either. /tmp/... is a popular choice, as are whitespace-subdirs or, my favourite, a subdir in .kde/prefs/somelongpaththatlookslegitimate/.../blah.a |
| 18:12.41 | amro | (so if you're not doing that, you're either very confident or dont know what you're doing) |
| 18:13.07 | amro | that's just obfuscation |
| 18:13.10 | amro | by hiding itself well |
| 18:13.29 | amro | I mean rootkit kind of hide |
| 18:13.39 | mxs | I know I don't check the consistency of .profile on every login, no the user X startup scripts, nor the KDE startup chain ... It is not that hard to hide stuff in there pretty well |
| 18:13.47 | mxs | yeah |
| 18:13.52 | mxs | but nothing really does that on windows either |
| 18:14.05 | amro | nope, but at least init.d would be safe |
| 18:14.11 | mxs | most malware/spyware/crapware just hides in windows/system under a nondescript name |
| 18:14.33 | amro | if you get infected as admin it's much harder to clean out |
| 18:15.07 | mxs | true |
| 18:15.27 | mxs | though even if only a useraccount is compromised, it's a good idea to try to prove that no escalation could have taken place |
| 18:16.06 | mxs | local root exploits are not /that/ uncommon, especially in desktop environments :) |
| 18:16.23 | amro | though this isn't relevant to my point, as I maintain the #1 priority is to keep malware out |
| 18:16.27 | amro | rather than keep it contained |
| 18:16.43 | mxs | but that's beside the point anyway. I'd posit you can infect a linux user pretty effectively and rather well hidden to the "casual" look |
| 18:16.59 | amro | yeah if you target him specifically |
| 18:17.00 | mxs | thedifference being that you expect it to happen on windows |
| 18:17.01 | Adys | YOU GUYS ARE STILL TALKING ABOUT IT OMG |
| 18:17.06 | Adys | I killed 3 bosses in bt |
| 18:17.11 | Adys | reboot my soundcard |
| 18:17.14 | Adys | and you're still on it |
| 18:17.15 | mxs | and most linux users arrogantly expect it not to be possible on their system |
| 18:17.30 | mxs | milw0rm is how old, now ? :P |
| 18:17.32 | amro | Adys: it's been 30 mins |
| 18:17.41 | Adys | yeah |
| 18:17.49 | Adys | brb |
| 18:17.58 | amro | mxs: linux users can be just as dumb as windows users |
| 18:18.03 | mxs | oh yes. |
| 18:18.07 | amro | but you get my point |
| 18:18.14 | mxs | I have seen boxes so compromised it wasn't even funny :> |
| 18:18.17 | amro | that it's much more secure, and that windows COULD be made at least as secure |
| 18:18.50 | mxs | well, to be fair, Windows does have some really fucking nifty security features |
| 18:18.51 | amro | and as long as it isn't, it's safe to say that linux is safer, even if it isn't 100% saf |
| 18:18.56 | mxs | just most people never use them |
| 18:19.19 | mxs | just as most people on linux never use the really fucking nice security features |
| 18:19.28 | amro | mxs: exactly the problem. windows especially should do everything for the user, as a lot of them know about as much about computers as they do about astrophysics |
| 18:19.33 | mxs | or do YOU use acls on your filesystem ? :> |
| 18:19.59 | mxs | (or, hell, a sensible SELinux profile for firefox :>) |
| 18:20.16 | amro | if I told you about my security practices you would cry. my system is one of the least secure in the world, I've been hiding behind the fact that |
| 18:20.27 | amro | no one wants to attack m |
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| 18:20.32 | amro | but I'm aware of it |
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| 18:20.37 | mxs | hehe |
| 18:20.43 | mxs | oh, I hear that from windows users all the time |
| 18:20.43 | amro | and if I needed to I would secure it |
| 18:20.53 | amro | heh |
| 18:20.57 | mxs | "I can use the same password everywhere, who would want to attack ME ?!?" |
| 18:21.02 | amro | lol |
| 18:21.12 | mxs | (and I stylised that, but that is the gist you get out of MANY people) |
| 18:21.18 | amro | I'm talking about my installation |
| 18:21.33 | mxs | yeah, same for them "Firewall ? Why ? Nothing important here ..." |
| 18:21.51 | amro | i know my exposed attacks vectors, and I know i don't need to protect them just yet |
| 18:22.10 | mxs | hehe :) |
| 18:22.11 | amro | my server on the other hand is secured =) |
| 18:22.30 | mxs | my most exposed attack vector right now is the fact that I have a non-NATed IPv6 subnet |
| 18:22.38 | mxs | with a couple of Windows boxen on it |
| 18:22.43 | mxs | they have their firewall on, but still :> |
| 18:22.47 | amro | but the difference between me and joe user, joe doesn't know how to protect himself. it needs to be done for him |
| 18:22.56 | amro | and windows users expect things to be done automagically |
| 18:23.33 | winkiller | ^+ubuntu ;) |
| 18:23.45 | winkiller | ans mac |
| 18:23.49 | mxs | well ... joe blow sixpack doesn't actually CARE if he is compromised, so long as WoW starts, Word still works, the porn still plays, etc. |
| 18:23.51 | amro | true |
| 18:23.55 | amro | but windows most of all |
| 18:24.25 | amro | exactly, which is why he gets keylogged. (wow still starts :)) |
| 18:24.45 | mxs | so joe blow sixpack with a compromised ubuntu is even more dangerous, since his system won't crash as easily while evildoer xy is doing crap :> |
| 18:25.22 | amro | yeah, but the latter is less likely |
| 18:25.40 | mxs | oh, and just to jolt you awake and scare the fucking living daylights out of you : There is talk of online voting in pilot projects. |
| 18:25.47 | mxs | Presidential elections, no less. |
| 18:26.05 | amro | that would be scary |
| 18:26.12 | amro | but elections here are rigged anyway |
| 18:26.40 | mxs | that's almost as scary as votingcomputers (or "machines" as the marketing experts dubbed them) |
| 18:27.47 | amro | the thing about insecure software/hardware is that most likely the developers didn't have security in mind when designing. a from-scratch application designed to be secure can be very secure |
| 18:28.05 | amro | windows needs a security redesign |
| 18:28.20 | amro | it got one in vista, but it doesn't play nice with all applications |
| 18:28.23 | winkiller | didnt vista get one? officially |
| 18:28.28 | amro | yeah |
| 18:28.30 | amro | I had to disable it |
| 18:28.34 | mxs | yes and no. Security is ALWAYS a tradeoff with convenience. Windows does have rather nice security features, but if you turn them on, convenience goes in the shitter |
| 18:28.40 | amro | because i couldn't save games in chernobyl with it on >< |
| 18:29.28 | amro | mxs: mostly convenience for the coder (fixing buffer overflows etc isn't inconvenient for the user) |
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| 18:29.52 | mxs | but yeah, secure coding is still not something you learn in your first programming course. Hell, you don't even learn it in university in the vast majority of programs. |
| 18:30.04 | amro | bottom line is that windows could be much more secure than it is now with relatively little bother for the end user |
| 18:30.05 | mxs | amro: no, also convenience for the user. |
| 18:30.32 | mxs | a strict separation of the user context and the admin context is more secure, but also more inconvenient. |
| 18:30.51 | amro | as long as it's worth it :) |
| 18:30.59 | winkiller | seems to not work on windows |
| 18:31.13 | amro | people need licenses to drive cars. they shouldn't expect to use computers without a crash course |
| 18:31.14 | winkiller | wow or war, one of them "exec as admin or gtfo" |
| 18:31.29 | mxs | amro: that line of thinking will NEVER be the right one. |
| 18:31.36 | winkiller | or some other mmo? doesn't matter |
| 18:31.44 | mxs | sorry, but anything that relies on "user education" is doomed to fail. |
| 18:31.46 | amro | mxs: you read too much into what I said |
| 18:32.16 | mxs | amro: you used the car and driving license analogy :P |
| 18:32.24 | amro | yeah that was bad |
| 18:32.31 | amro | since you really really need a licence to drive |
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| 18:32.51 | mxs | the difference being that the benefits of that are rather easy to spot : police doesn't lock you up, you get to use a car without killing yourself in the process, etc. :) |
| 18:33.00 | amro | yeah, bad analogy |
| 18:33.20 | mxs | ever worked in tech support ? |
| 18:33.33 | mxs | (and if you did, my condolences :) |
| 18:34.03 | amro | no, but I've had my fair share of pain doing family tech support. (including fixing a laptop through webcam... God never again) |
| 18:34.21 | mxs | amro: yeah, family sucks. |
| 18:34.24 | mxs | You can't even say no. |
| 18:34.27 | winkiller | lol |
| 18:34.31 | amro | or quit :( |
| 18:34.51 | mxs | Usually, I take the pain to talk them through downloading and installing UltraVNC or some such |
| 18:35.00 | mxs | takes 20-30 minutes to get to the point where I move their mouse |
| 18:35.10 | winkiller | best line is: oh, you're studying computer science, fix my comp.. |
| 18:35.12 | mxs | at which point the fixing-of-the-problem takes 5 minutes. |
| 18:35.18 | amro | but I do see what you're getting at |
| 18:35.21 | winkiller | I knew SO much more about hardware before starting :P |
| 18:35.52 | mxs | winkiller: "Well, /here/'s your problem ... The turing machine ran out of tape." |
| 18:35.55 | amro | users suck, and expecting them to be smart is doomed to fail |
| 18:36.17 | amro | but my point was that you can't avoid inconveniencing the user |
| 18:36.19 | winkiller | mxs: still works most of the time :P |
| 18:36.21 | mxs | There will always be users that suck even worse than the average sucker, too ... :) |
| 18:36.24 | amro | and some of it is necessary for security |
| 18:36.30 | mxs | yes, some of it is |
| 18:36.49 | amro | i'd rather inconvenience them with separating user/root than with losing all their data from an infection |
| 18:36.57 | mxs | but Microsoft has done a GREAT job at training users to blindly click "OK" or "CANCEL" or "IGNORE" just to get rid of that "annoying" modal window |
| 18:37.08 | amro | yeah, that's pretty bad |
| 18:37.16 | amro | lesson learned: modals don't work |
| 18:37.17 | mxs | the first time, they will read what it says |
| 18:37.18 | amro | a bit too late |
| 18:37.20 | mxs | maybe even the second |
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| 18:37.27 | amro | a lot don't even read the first time |
| 18:37.34 | mxs | but after the third, every single window that pops up with a symbol they saw at some point, they will never read |
| 18:37.34 | amro | they just click away |
| 18:37.48 | mxs | yupp |
| 18:38.16 | mxs | (which, cynically speaking, is a good thing -- makes it easy to show that click-through licenses and EULAs are unenforcable :>) |
| 18:38.48 | amro | I guess the "type root password" dialogs are exploitable... you could make an app that mimicks the dialog, and quite a few might fall for it (even without the blackout effect) |
| 18:38.58 | winkiller | lol |
| 18:39.06 | mxs | winkiller: at some point, just remark "Holy Knuth ! Your computer contains the solution to P=NP !", then run away screaming |
| 18:39.06 | Lukian | what's the easiest way to demote an entire rank of characters in a guild, down a rank? |
| 18:39.35 | mxs | lukian : there isn't really more than one way. |
| 18:39.48 | amro | rofl mxs |
| 18:39.49 | mxs | amro: oh, I used that in school. |
| 18:39.52 | amro | that just might work |
| 18:39.52 | Lukian | mxs, I was hoping for an addon.. but the outlook is bleak. |
| 18:40.09 | mxs | amro: turbo pascal let me create a login screen that mimicked the novell netware login screen EXACTLY. |
| 18:40.20 | mxs | it would just display "password wrong" and then go to the real screen |
| 18:40.43 | mxs | The teacher was ... less than amused at the presentation. |
| 18:40.55 | mxs | It was titled "Passwords" |
| 18:41.34 | mxs | I really should have patented that. Phishing is a big money game now, that would have been nice royalties ! :> |
| 18:42.11 | amro | lol |
| 18:45.14 | amro | you're probably familiar with gutmann's paper on that issue, it's separate from technological vulnerabilities |
| 18:47.36 | mxs | not sure :) |
| 18:48.08 | mxs | I need to churn through more papers again, haven't been keeping up on cryptostuff for a year or two |
| 18:48.21 | mxs | in any case, off to eat :) |
| 18:48.31 | amro | mxs: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/psychology.pdf |
| 18:48.33 | mxs | Blizzard better not Blitz-patch tonight :> |
| 18:48.46 | amro | though the issues on http://www.ranum.com/security/computer_security/editorials/dumb/index.html are more important |
| 18:54.19 | mxs | hadn't seen those slides before, but from skimming it he makes the usual case for security and usability and the interaction between the two |
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| 18:57.18 | amro | mxs: yep. the solutions isn't to throw out security |
| 18:57.33 | amro | s/ns/s/ |
| 18:57.39 | amro | oh great |
| 18:57.42 | amro | >< |
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| 20:38.30 | foxlit | "Sylvanas fought and finally slew Varimathras, retaking her Throne at a cost not yet forseen." |
| 20:38.39 | foxlit | We foresee foreseeing it in the near future. |
| 20:38.56 | Kirkburn|afk | You forsee foreseeing for the forsaken? |
| 20:39.57 | foxlit | I guess you could foresee that. |
| 20:44.55 | Kirkburn|afk | Forsooth! |
| 20:45.44 | Kirkburn|afk | I want to know how Last.fm has come up with Chain Reaction by Young Divas as a song for me to listen to |
| 20:46.05 | Lukian | Kirkburn|afk, do you agree with it? |
| 20:46.55 | Kirkburn|afk | It feels a little like it choosing Donny Osmond or S Club 7 |
| 20:47.34 | Kirkburn|afk | The rest of the music it has chosen is indie rock/electronica ... not pop :P |
| 20:47.47 | foxlit | Kirkburn|afk: random(1, getSongCount()) |
| 20:48.02 | g0urra | !jobqueue |
| 20:48.04 | Dotted | The job queue length is currently 111577 |
| 20:48.08 | foxlit | well, that, or correlation statistics, which you really don't want to bother with |
| 20:48.21 | foxlit | g0urra broke the wiki, clearly :) |
| 20:48.33 | g0urra | of course. I love to break stuff <3 |
| 20:48.56 | Kirkburn|afk | 111264 was the earlier count :/ |
| 20:49.11 | foxlit | It's so not falling |
| 20:49.26 | Kirkburn|afk | If it doesn't move by tomorrow, I'll file a report |
| 20:49.36 | *** join/#wowwiki Kalroth (n=kalroth@3908ds1-hj.0.fullrate.dk) |
| 20:49.43 | foxlit | It's probably moving, just at 1 Hz |
| 20:49.45 | foxlit | And we're still adding items to cost. Fun <3 |
| 20:52.40 | Kirkburn|afk | lol |
| 20:56.22 | g0urra | let's see then |
| 20:56.23 | g0urra | !jobqueue |
| 20:56.25 | Dotted | The job queue length is currently 111588 |
| 20:56.29 | g0urra | lol |
| 21:00.06 | Eraclito | guys, does anyone know if 4th october is inclued in brewfest? or it ends in the night between 3 and 4? |
| 21:00.49 | g0urra | included |
| 21:02.09 | Eraclito | thanks, i need 4th for the quest item |
| 21:02.34 | Eraclito | (i already got regalia, boots, hat, gnome glasses... and the kodo, obv) |
| 21:06.17 | Fisker- | why so loladin g0urra ? |
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| 21:06.57 | Fisker- | tell me g0urra |
| 21:10.06 | winkiller | why no security discussion anymore? :> |
| 21:11.06 | Fisker- | i nerfed the holy tree |
| 21:11.07 | Fisker- | oh wait |
| 21:11.10 | Fisker- | too late |
| 21:38.01 | soufron | is legal maven |
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